Honestly, I'd need all day!

I was just about to say the same thing!

The NTAs, where The Big Bang Theory beat Game of Thrones and Aidan Turner essentially won an award for having a hot bod. I don't want to let my opinions get in the way, but I wonder if the NTAs are sometimes chosen on factors other than talent, and I can't help feeling Capaldi would have had a better chance at them if he'd been more of a dreamboat.

I don't see anything to worry about with Capaldi being in the lead, and apparently the BBC don't either. For all we know, a hard reboot could lose more fans currently watching rather than simply bring back old ones just like that. No doubt the BBC have considered taking it back to where it was ten years ago could potentially lose a lot of the international fanbase too.

As far as I can tell, Clara actually had clear motives whereas the Tenth Doctor and Rose seemed to be trying to fit the "rebellious teenage girl" and "handsome angsty hero" archetypes while failing to dig down into why they do some of the things they do. Some people talk about the Twelfth Doctor and Clara being unlikable, but personally I failed to see much likable at all with Ten and Rose, beyond what the actors had to offer. Rose in particular made me feel incredibly unsettled with the way she behaved, coupled with the show trying to justify it.

In comparison, I don't think the show tried to justify Twelve and Clara's mistakes, rather than show the negative effects of those mistakes.

Probably why people see them as more unlikable because people don't look through the lines. Rose treated almost everyone she met terribly because they were taking The Doctor's attention, but RTD tried to make it seem her actions were good and all in the name of love which makes it acceptable. And apparently because of that she is more likable than Clara who was actually kind?

Yeah, it was all handled very poorly, in my opinion. Character flaws are supposed to be just that... flaws. Not something that can be excused with "They're the main characters and you have to like them anyway", but something that should present problems for the characters and the people they interact with. It makes the difference between a real flawed character you actually want to root for (i.e. Breaking Bad's Jesse) and a character just being plain unlikable and difficult to understand or relate to, like Rose.

No, it's not the same with the Emmy. This is the first time the show has been submitted, although Tennant and Eccleston have won on account of other work.

Considering the ratings decline, I'd speculate that most of the people who really love the Moffat era would mostly come from the pool of us dedicated fans who will tune in anyway.

If Chibnall made the show mainstream popular again as it was in the RTD era, but a few people die hard fans threw their toys out of the pram (but most of whom would ultimately still watch anyway being fans) I doubt he'd be too disheartened by there bit of whining, against the roar of mainstream appreciation.


Believe what you will, but if Capaldi is staying, I can't imagine why they wouldn't have said so by now. There's only a reason for secrecy for the time being if there is something to keep secret until the right time, such as a regeneration.

I have no idea for sure whether he'll stay or go like most other people, but at the moment I feel his leaving seems more likely.

I feel the reason that such stock is put in tv only ratings by the various channels is that they are an indicator of excitement. If you sort of want to watch a show, then you'll be content with catching it a few days later on iplayer or some other similar service. If however you are so interested and excited for a show, then you'll be right there on the sofa to catch it at the first possible moment you are able to see it.

Take something like Game of Thrones for example. The excitement levels are so high for the show that the tv ratings are absolutely huge. Sure there are those who will watch on a catch up service still, but the fact that so many are so hyped that, in this world of so many options, they sit down to watch the tv broadcast, is proof to broadcasters of it's popularity.


Moffat seems to complain almost every year about the stress of running the show .

He found the total reboot stressful, he didn't like criticism of the heavy arc style series 6, he found series 7 and arranging the 50th so stressful he apparently nearly walked out that year. Put together various interviews and comments over his time and it seems to be a picture of someone who was a bundle of stress every year, despite producing far less content year on year than RTD did.

You pretty much summed up the Doctor Who fanbase in the last ten years, through RTD and Moffat.


You're kidding if you didn't think RTD was overrun with stress too, to the point of frequently almost giving up.

Yes, some always complain, and the fans still watch whether they are complaining or not, but RTD had the comfort of mainstream popularity, awards, and ratings to reassure him.

I'm sure you'll try and somehow assert somehow that the show is still mainstream popular under Moffat, but I simply don't see it. From street conversation, to ranges of toys in shops, to the amount of friends and family who still watched, my experience has been a gradual growing lack of interest from about series 6 onwards.



I don't doubt it, and I read the writers tale, so I've seen him describe it in his own words. I'm sure the job would be stressful for everyone. My comments were a reply to whoswho1 was saying that moffat would advise new showrunners against a total reboot because it was to stressful, and I was trying to point out that with Moffat so often publicly complaining of the stress, him advising against the stress about a particular thing isn't really saying much when he seems constantly stressed.

Anyone taking stock in such comments that much surely wouldn't take the job in the first place.

If you're not convinced by its Twitter trending, its media attention, its solid +7 figures, its international growth or even the fact that the show is still here more than ten years later, that there is still a level of mainstream success, than I'm afraid you're just biased. Maybe it's just that the show isn't new anymore?

You also seem to have had a different experience to me. I hardly recall much street conversation at all about the show during the RTD years, and there were still plenty of people who didn't have a clue what it was. In terms of toys it seems fine to me, my little brother is always being spoilt with Doctor Who merchandise, from the action figures to the merchandise to the prop replicas, and even a place in Lego Dimensions which he's enjoyed very much. My family have also found a much more shared enjoyment since Moffat took over and Capaldi is generally a favourite among us and our friends... apart from my sister, we generally weren't fans of the RTD era.


It's pretty clear what Moffat meant there was that taking over with a total reboot is far more stressful than it would have been if Tennant had stayed on. Of course he finds it all stressful, contrary to popular belief it really isn't as easy a job as some people seem to give it credit for.

With respect, your experience seems very different from most other people's, certainly my own and everyone else I know who follows (or followed) Who over the last 11 years. Just one point, go into ToysRUs, and see the limited range of Who toys compared to 10 years ago.

Well it isn't me speculating there...Capaldi has actually said that.

Well when I talk of my experience I don't put any stock in the 'it isn't new anymore' excuse because my experience of it's hype and mainstream popularity continued in that way right through the RTD era, despite it being 4 years old by series 4, and any effect of it being the 'shiny new thing' had worn off.

Also, you try and throw out words like biased, but then say 'you seem to have had a different experience to me'. You really didn't need to throw out the first bit, when the second bit is more accurate and a more sensible reply - I simply had a different experience to you, and continue to do so. These days, if it ever gets brought up at all, I have to defend why I still watch, whereas back in the RTD times, it was just normal that most people did.



Of course it would have been better for Moffat had been able to keep Tennant. He was the face of the show at the height of it's mainstream popularity. Capaldi being the face of the show in an era of ratings decline, means that, to me, it would actually seem easier for Chibnall to have a chance of making it more popular than it is now and improve ratings.

Also, I haven't tried to argue about the level of stress involved in general. I'm sure getting a series done each year must be a mammoth task for anyone.


I know. like you, I went from watching a show that everyone seemed to love, and that seemed to be talked about as event tv, to a show that gets barely mentioned, and I don't actually recall the last time I saw a child who was interested in the show.

Also, your point about the ToysRus thing is very true. I remember going in there, in what must have been either 2008/2009 (because I was looking for a new series 4 figure) and as you went in there was a huge stand dedicated to who, right near to where you first came in, which had flashing lights and TARDIS noise built into the display, and a whole shelving section dedicated to who merchandise. In comparison, the last time I went in there, I looked out of interest, and after searching the aisles, found a handful of figures tucked away on a shelf near the back of the store.

I'm sure that the Moffat lovers will tell that doesn't mean anything, and that you, me, everyone you know, everyone I know are all just imagining it.

A lot gets said in these interviews. Moffat has admitted in the past that he lies to keep show secrets, and rightly so, which is why I don't believe any of there PR guff until they are talking about a confirmed thing. That is why despite the fact that I knew that he has said that in an interview, I still say believe what you will until I hear confirmation one way or the other.

One question I keep asking that no one has yet offered a possible answer for is that, considering the time scale, we know the decision would have had to have been made by now, and that if they were casting doctor 13 they'd have to at least be in the process of auditioning by now, so if Capaldi were indeed staying, why on earth would they be keeping that a secret?

It's such run of the mill 'business as usual' type news, that they could come out with that now easily, A regeneration however requires total secrecy until the time for maximum advertising potential is right.

Which is exactly the point I was getting at. We all have different experiences, so where does anecdotal evidence get us?


So what are complaining about? Moffat doing interviews?


When have any "Moffat lovers" said that?

[quote=Lord Smexy;83397296]Which is exactly the point I was getting at. We all have different experiences, so where does anecdotal evidence get us?
It may not convince anyone to change their view, but it colours our own, and helps to explain why we perceive popularity as we do, which is why you felt the need to reply to me using anecdotal evidence yourself.



Not complaining. My original intent was just to say that Moffat saying a reboot for him being stressful in those times, in that situation has no bearing on what Chibnall should do now in the current situation.



If I'm ever to say on this forum that the RTD era is more popular, it wouldn't get more than 2 posts down before someone would feel the need to 'slap me down', even though that is my genuine experience, and obviously one shared by others.

[quote=doctor blue box;83397420]
I was trying to show you how useless it as as actual "evidence" when it can have as much bearing on the overall picture as an opinion.


Obviously the decision is Chibnall's, but people were pointing out it may be in his best interests not to go for a total reboot, since RTD and Moffat have both found it so strenuous.


I'm not sure anyone on this forum thinks any differently, the RTD era obviously wins out on popularity, but I think there are people who can clearly see that the show isn't as unpopular as some people, namely those who don't like the Moffat era, want to make out. There's a bigger picture out there than cherry-picked information such as lower ratings and less street conversation.

[quote=doctor blue box;83397420]
The whole RTD/SM thing is just what forums tends to do. Get any post praising the SM era and any minute there'll be a post criticising the era. Same with RTD. It's all opinion. I don't get this "Moffat lovers" or "RTD fanboys" stuff that crops up really as it's all Who. I prefer certain eras, but don't feel the need to denigrate one era to praise another....and no era is perfect. (that's a general point about fandom and tinternet). It's all good though. It'll be boring when ALL fans unite to universally praise Chibbers,...which is bound to happen. Yeah, right.

Of course someone could start a thread entitled 'William Hartnell sucked!" and I would post saying why I disagreed (probably quite a long one!) but I wouldn't really care as they'd be wrong and I'd be right!

(Joke!)

Both eras have their strengths and weaknesses, and this is my view on the discussion.

RTD relaunched the show and got an entire new generation onto the show. Which i am sure the Parents got them onto the show. And the show was advertised brilliantly and everyone knew about it. And RTD's audience was definitely a more family orientated, and i'd say younger demographic. As shown by how he wrote Tennant, and this is my issue with him as The Doctor is he is too human, not helped by more or less every story on modern day Earth, for me he lost what the character is and completely focused on a short term demographic. As evident of all of those people who only watched the show because of Tennant.

Then SM takes over and the show grows massively overseas and ratings similar to RTD when he took over. Then the first break in S6 happened, no ratings lost. Then S7 happened, a series so broken in such an important season, and quite frankly the 50th year as a whole was a let down. I noticed a drop of interest after S7. But the show definitely improved internationally, and it is also around this time watching TV as a family died out, everyone streams now days. That does effect ratings, and i am assuming here, but i believe it is an accurate assumption, those who mainly watch TV are the younger audience with their families. The past couple seasons the show has not been targeted as much towards them, nor has it been advertised more or less at all. And all of this lead to the decrease in ratings in S9.

Ratings aren't a measure of quality, they are simply a measure of how well the show has been advertised.

I think Moffat is writing a regeneration story.

Well they might know it now, yeah. Moffat's known for his trolling. But would they really have known it back in March, when Peter said he'd been offered another year in the role?

That's what I'm talking about.

So by that logic...

IF Peter and Moffat both said he is leaving, people would think he is really staying? LOL!

To get back to the point of the thread, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is Capaldi's final season. It may well be the decision is not final yet, it may be Moffat knows exactly what's happening and is playing along.

As I've said, personally, I don't think the 12th Doctor has been a success and I think his lack of popular appeal is exposed through falling viewing figures and the NTAs shortlist snub (two years running).

I don't think Clara helped, and the gloomy writing has also been an issue. And maybe Bill will be his saving grace. But I think the problem with season 9 was not a lack of promotion but a lack of 'buzz'. People simply weren't talking about the show coming back and perhaps that's the reason a few forum members know people who didn't realise season 9 had started.

Just my opinion, as always. But I would personally consider it a mistake if Chibnall keeps him on for 2018.

Nothing against Peter Capaldi, who I adore as an actor. And I do realise I am very much in the minority on this forum too.

Does this board ever get tired of the same discussion ever fortnight?

What the hell are we supposed to do when the show takes a year long break???