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Football Commentators Thread (Part 19) |
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#2901 |
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"F1 moved to SS1 now and again... let's get the predictions if you think they will do it again?"
They might. They might not. Wait and see. Not much else chat to come from it. And while you say 'they might', 'they might not', think it's perfectly OK to have a discussion over it. I mean the whole 'football commentators thread' idea itself started based on Tyler being replaced by Darke on big games and people speculating as a result on what it meant. It's more when the questions get overly assumption-based or when he starts trying to predict coverage while passing it off as the actual line-up (whether intentionally or not) that winds people up. I mean I don't want this to become the equivalent of TV Forum - where quite a few posters come across as petty and seem to want to be forum police and jump up on certain posters at will. I'd say too that it is an international break when the thread is normally quieter so there's nothing wrong with trying to start up some discussion. Getting to Subaru's question, I definetely can see Sky moving the football off Sky Sports 1 that day. Judging by recent experience Sky like to hype up their big events a lot and give them the big treatment (slogans, montages, SSN hype and all). The games that Sunday are pretty nondescript in all honesty and the F1 will be more attractive to the casual Sky Sports subscriber so I can see Sky Sports 1 having the F1. Quote:
Well, as I said when he started showing up on the red button on BT, Ally McCoist had gone from punditing on the first choice Champions League match, to co-commentating on the eighth choice. I guess it's a bit of a damaged goods scenario, much like Terry Venables, in that they gave up full-time punditry to go into management (or back into management, in Venables' case) and didn't do very well, losing them a bit of credibility.
But as you say, he was very prominent on ITV in the past. Of course they poached him from the BBC, where he'd started in punditry and did the McCoist And Macaulay show which started on BBC Scotland and was then networked for some reason. I always thought it was odd how they let him carry on his Question of Sport role long after he joined ITV - I remember they showed an episode during the Beeb's build-up to the Euro 2000 Final, so he was on both channels at once. That said, Ally was involved in the awful banter fest that was the early days of The Premiership. And of course we had that set-up in 2005/06 with Gabby alone in the studio and Andy and Ally pitchside, which was the most bizarre idea, a bit like Football League Tonight and the early days of BT in that they were clearly looking for a way to present football on telly nobody else did, without realising why nobody else did it. It was such a baffling concept. Presumably it was because the bosses just didn't fancy Gabby and wanted to have her on screen less. I remember during that season they also did a scorecard at the end of the match, marks out of ten for each player like in the papers, which is surely the most untelevisual concept, a long list of names and numbers. A bizarre period.. There was a period IIRC in the Steve Ryder days where rather than having the presenter sat on one side and the pundits on the other side (as is standard for most coverage) you instead had Ryder sat in the middle of the pundits with Townsend almost acting like a second presenter. Interesting to note Townsend now actually does seem to be a bit of football presenting. Don't watch a lot of Scottish football or follow it hugely (so please correct me if I'm wrong) but McCoist's managerial career didn't sound that bad - or at least not bad enough to pretty much start at the bottom covering Red Button games again. I mean I wasn't expecting his role to be as prominent on TV as before he left for management but I always found it odd until this point that he was just stuck on games only a few hundred must be watching. That said even after a while I still can't get used to the BT commentary line-up on Red Button/'minor' games. You end with some pretty established commentators like Guy Mowbray, Jonathan Pearce, Jon Champion and people viewers have heard of like David Pleat, Ally McCoist and Jim Beglin often on games very few will be watching. It's not for me to get into why but it just always seems a bit odd that the commentators on those games aren't less high-profile. |
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#2902 |
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With Clive Tyldesley now in his 60s this thread often spends a wet Tuesday speculating on who might take over from him as ITV's lead commentator when he hangs up his mike. Given that Guy Mowbray wasn't even on the radar to take over from Motty at the Beeb until very late in the day can I make a suggestion of somebody who I don't think has been mentioned but who I think would be an excellent choice.
How about Jim Proudfoot? |
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#2903 |
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Quote:
With Clive Tyldesley now in his 60s this thread often spends a wet Tuesday speculating on who might take over from him as ITV's lead commentator when he hangs up his mike. Given that Guy Mowbray wasn't even on the radar to take over from Motty at the Beeb until very late in the day can I make a suggestion of somebody who I don't think has been mentioned but who I think would be an excellent choice.
How about Jim Proudfoot? |
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#2904 |
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Isn't is just a case of BT having "bigger" names in their freelance pool?
On Sky, assuming a "top 4" of Tyler, Hawthorne, Leslie and Mann, and Crocker on Celtic, the red button pool would be Weaver, Palmer, Keatings, Jones, Taphouse, Speight etc who aren't necessarily bad commentators, but aren't exactly household names because none have had a regular terrestrial gig (not recently anyway). Co-comms will be similar. |
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#2905 |
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I doubt Proudfoot will be chosen. For a long time it looked like Peter Drury would take over. Currently though it seems like it is a two horse race between Sam Matterface and Joe Speight. I really hope Speight gets it but you sense that Matterface will end up with it. That said ITV did surprise us by choosing Mark Pougatch as lead presenter so anything is possible.
1) would ITV be prepared to let Matterface continue with talkSPORT, on the condition they have "first dibs" when showing a game? 2) if not, would Matterface prefer the regular but rather mundane gig on talkSPORT, or the sporadic but higher profile gig on ITV? |
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#2906 |
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Quote:
Isn't is just a case of BT having "bigger" names in their freelance pool?
On Sky, assuming a "top 4" of Tyler, Hawthorne, Leslie and Mann, and Crocker on Celtic, the red button pool would be Weaver, Palmer, Keatings, Jones, Taphouse, Speight etc who aren't necessarily bad commentators, but aren't exactly household names because none have had a regular terrestrial gig (not recently anyway). Co-comms will be similar. Just feels a bit odd as we've been used to so long for Red Button games having the likes of Palmer, Jones etc. whereas now a game that would say have had Gary Taphouse doing it 2-3 years ago is done instead by Guy Mowbray who is a much more household name. Obviously both Sky and BT have/had those pools of commentators they pick from and I get that but my point really is that it still takes some getting used to regarding BT's pool. |
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#2907 |
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I doubt Proudfoot will be chosen. For a long time it looked like Peter Drury would take over. Currently though it seems like it is a two horse race between Sam Matterface and Joe Speight. I really hope Speight gets it but you sense that Matterface will end up with it. That said ITV did surprise us by choosing Mark Pougatch as lead presenter so anything is possible.
He wouldn't be my choice but I can certainly see him getting that role. That said we've been predicting on here for years about who'll replace Clive/Tyler etc. and Tydesley and Tyler are both still going strong as ever and we do have a tendancy at times on here (myself included) to think that once broadcasters reach a certain age, they'll choose to stop broadcasting when that's probably far from the case and if they still feel as good as ever they'll of course continue broadcasting. |
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#2908 |
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ITV have had their fair share of odd set-ups over the years.
There was a period IIRC in the Steve Ryder days where rather than having the presenter sat on one side and the pundits on the other side (as is standard for most coverage) you instead had Ryder sat in the middle of the pundits with Townsend almost acting like a second presenter. Interesting to note Townsend now actually does seem to be a bit of football presenting. Before the 2006 World Cup ITV mentioned how they were going for a more "journalistic" approach to the World Cup, I remember. It's always a channel that's had wild fluctuations in its coverage as new people arrive who all want to put their own stamp on things. Quote:
Isn't is just a case of BT having "bigger" names in their freelance pool?
On Sky, assuming a "top 4" of Tyler, Hawthorne, Leslie and Mann, and Crocker on Celtic, the red button pool would be Weaver, Palmer, Keatings, Jones, Taphouse, Speight etc who aren't necessarily bad commentators, but aren't exactly household names because none have had a regular terrestrial gig (not recently anyway). Co-comms will be similar. Quote:
My money would still be on Matterface - he was quite a left-field pick to make a Number 2 commentator on the 2014 World Cup and 2016 Euros so I think ITV see him something in him to put him in that role.
He wouldn't be my choice but I can certainly see him getting that role. |
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#2909 |
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You're right. I'm not saying anyone's bad by any means but it does surprise me how that freelance pool for BT has so many of those more household names.
Just feels a bit odd as we've been used to so long for Red Button games having the likes of Palmer, Jones etc. whereas now a game that would say have had Gary Taphouse doing it 2-3 years ago is done instead by Guy Mowbray who is a much more household name. Obviously both Sky and BT have/had those pools of commentators they pick from and I get that but my point really is that it still takes some getting used to regarding BT's pool. When you look at Sky, there is only really Kevin Davies that I could think of who features for another channel. He seems to pop up occasionally on their EFL coverage, but more as a ‘rep’ for one of the teams involved rather than as a ‘Sky pundit’. Even then though, his 4K commentaries last year, and Conference punditry this year for BT isn’t exactly played out to a massive audience. There’s Iain Dowie too I guess, but again, despite being a busy chap, isn’t really at the forefront of wherever he works. And now that Tony Jones seems to have stopped working for every channel under the sun, there’s only really Speight from a commentary POV that features in a remotely prominent way elsewhere on UK TV. But then all he really does for Sky is about the 6th choice 3pm kick off, so you only ever hear him behind the red button at 11.00 at night, or during a 2-minute edit on Goals on Sunday. |
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#2910 |
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I suppose it would depend on two interconnected things:
1) would ITV be prepared to let Matterface continue with talkSPORT, on the condition they have "first dibs" when showing a game? 2) if not, would Matterface prefer the regular but rather mundane gig on talkSPORT, or the sporadic but higher profile gig on ITV? |
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#2911 |
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He did a bit of presenting when he was on ITV as well, he did Yorkshire Soccer Night and I remember he hosted a couple of episodes of The Championship, plus he and Ally would often do some Mark Clemmit-esque features on that programme. I do remember that period, Townsend was very prominent in those days - in Euro 2008 he pundited on every single game - and I've probably said this before but Teddy Sheringham was a regular on ITV around that time and there was one occasion in the build-up where they were showing some clips and Townsend kept on saying "D'you remember this, Ted?", over and over again. Sounded like someone talking a pensioner through some cine films.
Before the 2006 World Cup ITV mentioned how they were going for a more "journalistic" approach to the World Cup, I remember. It's always a channel that's had wild fluctuations in its coverage as new people arrive who all want to put their own stamp on things. A lot of this is probably because Sky want their commentators to be pretty much exclusive to them - I know some like Speight have other gigs but nothing very high profile - whereas BT are happy to use freelance commentators who are well-known from other channels. Sky wouldn't use Guy Mowbray, for example, because they would think he was too associated with the Beeb. BT aren't bothered about that. I think the main ITV commentator role is a bit different from other jobs, though - I don't think it'll be a case of someone just moving up, I think they'd be more likely to poach a big name. Indeed there are far fewer live games than on most channels and so I think they could easily get someone like Jon Champion to combine it on a freelance basis with his other work. Pundits seem to be prominent for a few years and then stop appearing regularly for various reasons. I can remember the likes of Sheringham, Southgate and Keane all appearing regularly (but now either don't appear or if they do sparingly for various reasons) whereas now Dixon & Wright seem to be the ones who appear the most. Co-commentary is a similar story - we've had the likes of Pleat, Beglin, Townsend and now Hoddle take up the lead role there over the years (and Craig Burley doing a World Cup Final too though that was due to an illness to Beglin). While by comparison the BBC line-up has usually been pretty stable. Lawrenson led the co-commentary for several years and you could normally rely on Hansen and Shearer being pundits with changes only normally being made due to retirement and age (Ferdinand now does the big international finals when Hansen used to). The above is why the BBC's decisions on co-commentary last season were a bit of a surprise - Murphy had seemed Number 1 the previous season (14/15) only for Keown to then get the 2016 FA Cup Final and England games in Euro 2016 only for Murphy to then get the Euro 2016 Final. Normally does seem like once you join the main BBC line-up you stay there. Though I have ignored the whole Le Saux period there to be honest. |
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#2912 |
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To be fair to Subaru, I don't think that question he just asked was that ridiculous. It's maybe making some assumptions but at the end of the day it's just a question and isn't pretending to be anything else.
And while you say 'they might', 'they might not', think it's perfectly OK to have a discussion over it. I mean the whole 'football commentators thread' idea itself started based on Tyler being replaced by Darke on big games and people speculating as a result on what it meant. Quote:
ITV have had their fair share of odd set-ups over the years.
There was a period IIRC in the Steve Ryder days where rather than having the presenter sat on one side and the pundits on the other side (as is standard for most coverage) you instead had Ryder sat in the middle of the pundits with Townsend almost acting like a second presenter. Interesting to note Townsend now actually does seem to be a bit of football presenting. Quote:
That said even after a while I still can't get used to the BT commentary line-up on Red Button/'minor' games. You end with some pretty established commentators like Guy Mowbray, Jonathan Pearce, Jon Champion and people viewers have heard of like David Pleat, Ally McCoist and Jim Beglin often on games very few will be watching. It's not for me to get into why but it just always seems a bit odd that the commentators on those games aren't less high-profile.
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#2913 |
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Though I have ignored the whole Le Saux period there to be honest.
He then left when the BBC realised they were being ridiculous and decided to use Lawrenson on England games after all. |
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#2914 |
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Am I recalling correctly that Le Saux was only ever used for England games because Lawrenson, despite being English, played for ROI?
He then left when the BBC realised they were being ridiculous and decided to use Lawrenson on England games after all. Of course at the 2014 World Cup the BBC put Phil Neville in that role with little experience, and it did not work well. ITV had a similar issue after Kevin Keegan and Ron Atkinson left, Sir Bobby Robson and then Gareth Southgate were used as the England summarisers at major tournaments before they settled on Andy Townsend for a while. |
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#2915 |
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Speculation is fine and can be good on commentators etc - great and meaningful chat! For me seconds after the race with ants in pants to get on here to jot down musings of "previously F1 was moved... Will it happen again?!" type patter is just a bit... Urgh.
ESPN did this too for the first year or two of their Scottish Football coverage when ti was based in London. You'd have Ray Stubbs or Darrell Currie in the middle with a pundit to his left and right. BT do have big names but often they are spread across two nights on the British teams or bigger European games. Just like Sky having likes of Speight, Driscoll, Weaver and co, BT have their fairshare of maybe more middle-ground comms such as Mason, Summerton, Farrar etc. BT's 'broadcast out a stadium post-match' idea was the very example of being different for the sake of it and horrible (and got them into trouble with Ofcom too) but I think 'Off the Bar' Sky have done for FNF is little better. -- Despite what I've said about it being odd the likes of Mowbray appearing on BT Red Button games, I do think these days we are much more used to pundits/commentators etc. appearing on more than one channel. It's happened for years anyone as British broadcasters have appeared on either NBC or international coverage but really is common even between UK broadcasters these days. Ian Wright in particular has appeared on all of them except Sky. -- Also since there was a lot of Westley and Clemmit on here last week and have to say I noticed when watching the F1 Sky doing something similar with Christian Horner, the Red Bull director. Sounds from people in that thread like it's common there - and I know it happens sometimes in football coverage too. Not sure if I'm a huge fan of it mind. |
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#2916 |
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I suppose it would depend on two interconnected things:
1) would ITV be prepared to let Matterface continue with talkSPORT, on the condition they have "first dibs" when showing a game? 2) if not, would Matterface prefer the regular but rather mundane gig on talkSPORT, or the sporadic but higher profile gig on ITV? Quote:
I doubt that that will come into play really. Matterface would only have Internationals on ITV and they wouldnt interrupt his TalkSPORT commitments in anyway. It would be fairly easy for him to carry on doing both as he currently does. If ITV say did pick up some rights for club matches then there could be a clash but as it stands TalkSPORT wouldnt affect ITV at all. Same goes for Speight and the World Feed commentaries as well. They wouldnt really clash.
Since Jim Proudfoot returned to the talkSPORT fold as their lead commentator at the 2014 World Cup, the first tournament Sam covered for ITV, Sam's pretty much been playing second fiddle to Jim outside of the Premier League - and even that has changed this season with JP getting their Sunday afternoon matches at the expense of SM. Proudfoot commentates on England internationals for talkSPORT and most Champions League and Europa League games for them, with the likes of Nigel Adderley getting the ones he doesn't do and other internationals involving the home nations. Sam's talkSPORT commentary commitments now appear to amount to Saturday 5.30pm games (occasionally their 3pm matches when they don't have a late game) and an even-ish share of their FA Cup and League Cup commentaries along with Jim and others. It's worth noting that Saturdays are the one day that Jim is not available to work for talkSPORT as he's often commentating on Premier League matches for the TV international feed. The major club finals are also split up pretty evenly between Jim and Sam; last season Jim did the League Cup and Champions League finals with Sam getting the FA Cup and Championship Play-Off finals; and I see that arrangement continuing this season (albeit perhaps with the FA Cup and League Cup finals switching between the two given that Jim is now their Premier League regular on Sundays and Sam has done all of their EFL Cup commentaries so far this season). But in the theoretical situation of Sam taking over from Clive Tyldesley as ITV's number one, nothing need change unless his new contract stipulated he couldn't work elsewhere. Sam would still be committed to ITV during international weeks, just covering a different game; he would still be committed to ITV during Champions/Europe League weeks, just covering more high profile matches; but he wouldn't be needed by them during domestic football weekends. And even the last time he was, during ITV's final season covering the FA Cup, you had a situation where Sam would commentate for ITV on days when they had numerous matches (Saturdays for their highlights show and the odd Sunday live game Clive wasn't covering), and then for talkSPORT on days when they didn't (he commentated on most Monday/Friday night FA Cup games that were on BT Sport). He also takes time off from talkSPORT to cover sporadic things like the Africa Cup of Nations for ITV4; so that wouldn't be a problem just as Jim covering the BDO World Darts Championship isn't. So if Sam was to boost his profile on ITV, I do not see why he would have to alter his current working arrangement with talkSPORT should he or ITV not want him to. |
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#2917 |
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I doubt that that will come into play really. Matterface would only have Internationals on ITV and they wouldnt interrupt his TalkSPORT commitments in anyway. It would be fairly easy for him to carry on doing both as he currently does. If ITV say did pick up some rights for club matches then there could be a clash but as it stands TalkSPORT wouldnt affect ITV at all. Same goes for Speight and the World Feed commentaries as well. They wouldnt really clash.
For the England games, though, they could even use someone like Alan Parry or Ian Darke. Their style seems more suited to the general audience - Clive's commentary style is very different to that on more channels - and it's the kind of workload that means they could fit it in between their other jobs. I know Parry is older than Clive, but you know what I mean. It's not really a full-time job. Ten years ago they could have got Barry Davies. |
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#2918 |
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To be honest, the only time ITV really need a number one commentator is for the England games and in the tournaments. The rest of the time they can more or less make do - I know Clive does the Champions League and Europa League highlights but they could cope without him on there and just use the pool of Matterface, Stowell, Speight and so on.
For the England games, though, they could even use someone like Alan Parry or Ian Darke. Their style seems more suited to the general audience - Clive's commentary style is very different to that on more channels - and it's the kind of workload that means they could fit it in between their other jobs. I know Parry is older than Clive, but you know what I mean. It's not really a full-time job. Ten years ago they could have got Barry Davies. |
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#2919 |
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Clive's current workload means that outside of the World Cup and the Euro's he works no more than 5 days a month. So yes it could easily be picked up by people such as Ian Darke, who could be feasible depending on whether or not he would be willing to leave ESPN. It depends on how ITV want to manage it. Clive is currently the voice of football on ITV and his successor will of course inherit that. I would imagine that ITV would want the successor to Clive to work on the CL/EL highlights as well and Matterface and Speight are currently the best positioned.
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#2920 |
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Just been watching old footage from the old First Division, and thought I'd share some details from a particular evening from years ago, as Arsenal won the title ahead of Liverpool before they even kicked a ball on this particular evening:
Monday 6th May 1991: The Big Match LIVE (ITV): Elton Welsby presented from Highbury, venue for the second live match, Arsenal v Manchester United. I can't remember/unsure who the guests were. Gary Newbon was the reporter. I can't remember/unsure who was the reporter at the City Ground for Nottingham Forest v Liverpool, the first match of the evening. Anyway, here's the commentary details: Nottingham Forest v Liverpool - Alan Parry and Ian St John Arsenal v Manchester United - Brian Moore and Gary Lineker Yes, Gary Lineker was indeed the co-commentator. He also did Manchester United v Liverpool in February that year, unsure if any other matches that season or the following season. Just thought I'd post that, in case some of the younger members didn't know, plus for those interested in commentary details from yesteryear! |
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#2921 |
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On the subject of ridiculous broadcasting ideas, Sky and BT have given some more recent contenders.
BT's 'broadcast out a stadium post-match' idea was the very example of being different for the sake of it and horrible (and got them into trouble with Ofcom too) but I think 'Off the Bar' Sky have done for FNF is little better. Quote:
Am I recalling correctly that Le Saux was only ever used for England games because Lawrenson, despite being English, played for ROI?
He then left when the BBC realised they were being ridiculous and decided to use Lawrenson on England games after all. They didn't just use Le Saux on England games, mind, in 2005/06 he was very prominent across the Beeb, he was the regular pundit on MOTD2, he was on Five Live a lot and he did co-commentary on other matches too - this was the period when they had three games a round in the FA Cup so he usually did one. They were clearly intending to train him up in much the same way they'd done with Gary Lineker a decade earlier, what with Le Saux often considered one of the more articulate footballers. Quote:
Just been watching old footage from the old First Division, and thought I'd share some details from a particular evening from years ago, as Arsenal won the title ahead of Liverpool before they even kicked a ball on this particular evening:
Monday 6th May 1991: The Big Match LIVE (ITV): Elton Welsby presented from Highbury, venue for the second live match, Arsenal v Manchester United. I can't remember/unsure who the guests were. Gary Newbon was the reporter. I can't remember/unsure who was the reporter at the City Ground for Nottingham Forest v Liverpool, the first match of the evening. Two days before, they'd shown Sunderland vs Arsenal unbilled at 5pm on Saturday which is surely the first example of live football in what is now a very familiar slot. Seemed incredible at the time, that they would dump all their familiar Saturday night fare, and in Fever Pitch Nick Hornby complains about how they moved it at very short notice. That's also the match where Moore and Greaves commentated from an open air gantry in the pouring rain and got drenched. Quote:
He may only commentate on five games in a month, but that doesn't mean he is only doing five days work a month.
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#2922 |
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Although of course the second match wasn't shown live in the end - they were only going to show it live if it was crucial, because it would have meant going above the number of games the contract permitted. But Liverpool losing meant Arsenal were champions regardless, so it was irrelevant, and instead of live coverage they showed The Ruth Rendell Mysteries (that was what was billed in the Radio Times) and showed highlights of that match instead.
Two days before, they'd shown Sunderland vs Arsenal unbilled at 5pm on Saturday which is surely the first example of live football in what is now a very familiar slot. Seemed incredible at the time, that they would dump all their familiar Saturday night fare, and in Fever Pitch Nick Hornby complains about how they moved it at very short notice. That's also the match where Moore and Greaves commentated from an open air gantry in the pouring rain and got drenched. ITV were certainly fans of showing football on bank holidays back then, covering a live match on all four New Year's Days during the exclusive contract as well as a couple on Easter Mondays and May Bank Holidays. |
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#2923 |
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Oh dear, Clive Tyldseley unaware of the change to the law on denying a clear and obvious goal scoring opportunity in the penalty area.
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#2924 |
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Oh dear, Clive Tyldseley unaware of the change to the law on denying a clear and obvious goal scoring opportunity in the penalty area.
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Where a player commits an offence against an opponent within their own penalty area which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offending player is cautioned unless:
... The offending player does not attempt to play the ball or there is no possibility for the player making the challenge to play the ball ... In all the above circumstances the player is sent off. http://www.theifab.com/#!/laws/fouls...plinary-action |
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#2925 |
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Borussia Dortmund v Bayern Munich- Derek Rae and Thomas Hitzlsperger for the world feed this Saturday
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