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Football Commentators Thread (Part 19)


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Old 18-12-2016, 16:51
sat-ire
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Just caught up with Sunday Supplement. It started as them putting Neville on trial and just defending themselves but Neville soon had them almost on side. He made some really good and well-executed points which the journos didn't exactly defend/answer. It's blatantly clear that our journalists don't actually seem to understand football as well as they seem to think they do. Also, they seem to think their opinion is more important than others.
I didn't see it but this quote perfectly summed up what a couple of members said here (from M.E.N.):-

Gary Neville believes Liverpool goalkeeper Loris Karius “brought pressure on himself” by taking his criticism personally.

The German stopper said he “did not care” what the pundit thought after giving an interview with a national newspaper days after a shaky performance vs Bournemouth.

And, with Karius having since being dropped following the furore, Neville has no regrets - claiming he criticises players on a weekly basis.

It became a big story because the player, coach and Liverpool added fuel to a fire that wasn’t there, he told Sky Sports Sunday Supplement.

Two weeks ago my most critical comments were about a United and an Everton player. No one will remember what my comment were because United and Everton never reacted to it, the players never reacted to it and they were forgotten about.

I called Fellaini pathetic and idiotic and I battered Stekelenburg for his part in Ibrahimovic’s goal. I said Karius transmits anxiety and nervousness to his team-mates.
The other two stories have disappeared to the point at which no one can remember them, that’s how I would expect press departments of football clubs to deal with these things.

When Karius did his newspaper interview I knew he would be out of the team in a few days, I knew he brought pressure on himself.
Young players should always do interviews and me saying, ‘stay clear of the situation’ – my advice to Karius after doing the interview he did – and Phil Neville and Jamie Carragher telling him to stay quiet, as ex-players, we were more guiding him saying, ‘this is not a fight for now.’
From our point of view as pundits though, we did our job, we created the debate.
Note that Neville criticised a Manchester United player - which he does almost weekly, Martial being another recent - which makes Klopp's intervention suggesting Neville's critcism really being about hurting a Liverpool player even more bizarre.

The fact Klopp dropped Karius for the very next game also made his intervention illogical. He must've known he planned to drop him, a "no comment" would've made more sense.
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Old 18-12-2016, 16:55
bwfcol
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Glenn Whelan reporting.
A career change for the Stoke midfielder

Just joking Cardio!

Another big game here with little incident to discuss
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Old 18-12-2016, 17:20
pakokelso93
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Bill Leslie's third goal call for Southampton today was superb! Loved the anticipation of it happening 5 secs before it did. My fav thing when commentating... when you know basically what is going to happen.
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Old 18-12-2016, 17:31
bwfcol
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Strong stuff from Tyler and Neville too
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Old 18-12-2016, 17:41
Li4m
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Bill Leslie's third goal call for Southampton today was superb! Loved the anticipation of it happening 5 secs before it did. My fav thing when commentating... when you know basically what is going to happen.
I groaned when Leslie referred to the goal as "a Christmas cracker."
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Old 18-12-2016, 17:57
CardioCortez
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A career change for the Stoke midfielder

Just joking Cardio!

Another big game here with little incident to discuss
He filled in for Greg after Greg played for Stoke in return yesterday.

Sorry. As soon as I typed it I thought, that name doesn't look right.

Geoff Shreeves is at the Etihad.

GNev joining the Sky studio after the break.
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Old 18-12-2016, 17:59
The Lizard
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Here's a round-up of all commentary details over this weekend so far. Apologies for any duplicated info:

Saturday 17th December:

Sporting Gijon v Villarreal (Sky Sports 5) - Jon Driscoll and David Phillips
Macclesfield v Bromley (BT Sport 1) - Adam Summerton and Adam Virgo
Crystal Palace v Chelsea (Sky Sports 1) - Alan Parry and Alan Smith
West Ham v Hull (Sky Sports 5 Ireland) - Ian Crocker (unsure who co-comm was, only heard IC on the West Ham winner!)
AC Milan v Atalanta (BT Sport 3) - Wayne Boyce
Connah's Quay v The New Saints (S4C) - Bryn Tomos and Malcolm Allen (Welsh), Mark Jones and Tomi Morgan (English)
Morton v Hibernian (BBC ALBA) - Alex O'Henley
West Brom v Manchester United (BT Sport 1) - Darren Fletcher and Owen Hargreaves
Birmingham v Brighton (Sky Sports 1 & MIX) - Gary Weaver and Danny Higginbotham
Granada v Real Sociedad (Sky Sports 5) - Kevin Keatings and Gerry Armstrong
Wolfsburg v Eintracht Frankfurt (BT Sport 2) - Paul Dempsey
Feyenoord v Vitesse Arnhem (Sky Sports 4) - Simon Mann and George Boateng
Juventus v Roma (BT Sport 3) - Jonathan Pearce and Chris Perry
Sevilla v Malaga (Sky Sports 5) - Rob Palmer and Terry Gibson

Sunday 18th December:

Sassuolo v Inter Milan (BT Sport 1) - Ben Andrews
QPR v Aston Villa (Sky Sports 2) - Daniel Mann and David Prutton
Genk v Standard Liege (Premier Sports) - Mark Rodden
Bournemouth v Southampton (Sky Sports 1) - Bill Leslie and Davie Provan
Napoli v Torino (BT Sport 2) - Steven Wyeth and Tony Dorigo
Nice v Dijon (BT Sport 3) - John Roder
Darmstadt v Bayern Munich (BT Sport 1) - Paul Dempsey and Owen Hargreaves
Leganes v Eibar (Sky Sports 5) - Kevin Keatings and David Phillips
Ajax v PSV Eindhoven (Sky Sports MIX) - Richard Connelly and Scott Booth
Marseille v Lille (BT Sport 3) - Mark Scott
Manchester City v Arsenal (Sky Sports 1) - Martin Tyler and Gary Neville
Bayer Leverkusen v Ingolstadt (BT Sport 1) - Dan Mason
Deportivo La Coruna v Osasuna (Sky Sports 5) - Jon Driscoll and Terry Gibson
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Old 18-12-2016, 18:02
BFGArmy
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Being honest, I thought Neville was dreadful on that second half. Not as bad as Arsenal's display in that half but not miles better.

Not much actual analysis just repetitive statements that everything was dreadful, pathetic etc in a very dull, angry manner. The nadirs being him just shouting at one point 'Look at it. Look at it' and going on about how Oxlade Chamberlin wasn't running around when he was clearly injured. Fine if he could expand beyond that but he really didn't. Not a good listen.

Other co-commentators get criticised for much less. Have to be honest I think many of the other Sky co-commentators are a better listen on commentary than Neville these days. Smith, Hinchcliffe and Provan in particular.

Tyler to be fair I thought was good.
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Old 18-12-2016, 18:08
pakokelso93
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Here's a round-up of all commentary details over this weekend so far. Apologies for any duplicated info:
West Ham v Hull (Sky Sports 5 Ireland) - Ian Crocker (unsure who co-comm was, only heard IC on the West Ham winner!)
Andy Hinchcliffe was with Ian.
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Old 18-12-2016, 18:09
bwfcol
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I thought his rant on the walking around was funny, it was aimed at many players, not just AOC. His analysis on Arsenal seemed fair.
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Old 18-12-2016, 19:25
casinoman13
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Being honest, I thought Neville was dreadful on that second half. Not as bad as Arsenal's display in that half but not miles better.

Not much actual analysis just repetitive statements that everything was dreadful, pathetic etc in a very dull, angry manner. The nadirs being him just shouting at one point 'Look at it. Look at it' and going on about how Oxlade Chamberlin wasn't running around when he was clearly injured. Fine if he could expand beyond that but he really didn't. Not a good listen.

Other co-commentators get criticised for much less. Have to be honest I think many of the other Sky co-commentators are a better listen on commentary than Neville these days. Smith, Hinchcliffe and Provan in particular.

Tyler to be fair I thought was good.
For once agree with you on this, Neville was awful today infact he has been for quite a while now.
I have said for a while now he seems to add very little and your right today he was just endlessly repeating himself and waffling on about nothing for the sake of it.

Yes i have savaged him in the past and in my opinion rightly so but im also glad finally someone else has raised issues about him.
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Old 18-12-2016, 19:37
BFGArmy
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I didn't see it but this quote perfectly summed up what a couple of members said here (from M.E.N.):-



Note that Neville criticised a Manchester United player - which he does almost weekly, Martial being another recent - which makes Klopp's intervention suggesting Neville's critcism really being about hurting a Liverpool player even more bizarre.

The fact Klopp dropped Karius for the very next game also made his intervention illogical. He must've known he planned to drop him, a "no comment" would've made more sense.
Neville misses the point a bit here. Karius was asked about it in an interview and spoke about it for 30 seconds in a 50-minute interview basically saying he'd ignore it. It's not as if Karius was lashing out - his reaction was perfectly reasonable and sensible. And it's basically the only thing he's said in the entire saga.

Not sure how the Nevilles and Carragher have taken 30 seconds of relatively inoffensive comment to mean all sorts.

It's like my pet peeve of pundits who extrapolate a selfie which takes 2 seconds to take to mean all sorts.

Chris Sutton actually summed it up best actually (words I never thought I'd write) in actually asking what point Phil Neville and Jamie Carragher were trying to make about Karius.

Actually don't think the rest of it reflects well on Neville either. Criticism is of course a part of being a pundit but then there's also the analysis part and adding what viewers may not know well that is crucial to it as well and I think Sky pundits have got weaker at that recently and I wish they could do a bit more.

Using the Steklenburg thing as an example lots that could be done to improve on the analysis provided.
Has Steklenburg always had issues with certain areas of his keeping?What techniques do other keepers use to avoid making the types of errors Steklenburg would? Not asking them to do that all the time or necessarily in huge detail but they often don't seem to even attempt covering it.

For once agree with you on this, Neville was awful today infact he has been for quite a while now.
I have said for a while now he seems to add very little and your right today he was just endlessly repeating himself and waffling on about nothing for the sake of it.

Yes i have savaged him in the past and in my opinion rightly so but im also glad finally someone else has raised issues about him.
For once?! Didn't you get the memo that I'm always right?

For the record here, not saying he's a bad pundit at all. Want to make that clear. But do find him frustrating these days - he can be so much better as a pundit/co-commentator then he has been recently.
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Old 18-12-2016, 19:55
BFGArmy
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Yes, apologies if that came out different than I meant it. The point I was trying to make is that it would probably only take Michael Owen to have split an infinitive or something for someone on Twitter to call him an idiot, and then everyone else just pile on, a bit like whenever Glenn Hoddle's on the telly and everyone tweets about him with Your Da jokes and all that. As far as I can see, Owen was just Owen.
e.
No problem at all Steve.
All I wanted to say was that it was a genuine question more than anything.

Totally get the point you were making too and it is a true point.

I thought his rant on the walking around was funny, it was aimed at many players, not just AOC. His analysis on Arsenal seemed fair.
It was Ox and Ozil he picked out though. It does make him look a bit silly to pick out a player as 'lazy' who was actually injured.
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Old 18-12-2016, 20:12
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Chris Sutton actually summed it up best actually (words I never thought I'd write) in actually asking what point Phil Neville and Jamie Carragher were trying to make about Karius.
Speaking of Sutton, that reminds me...

Did anyone notice that following their on-air spat, Chris Sutton and Stephen Craigan were kept apart on BT for the Hamilton v Rangers game the other night?

Sutton nearly always joins the pundits before and after the match, but he didn't on this occasion.

I would question whether I'm reading too much into it, and I probably am, but given that it is something out of the ordinary and occurred in the very next game after what happened the other day I thought it might be more than just a coincidence.
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Old 18-12-2016, 20:42
sat-ire
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Neville misses the point a bit here. Karius was asked about it in an interview and spoke about it for 30 seconds in a 50-minute interview basically saying he'd ignore it. It's not as if Karius was lashing out - his reaction was perfectly reasonable and sensible. And it's basically the only thing he's said in the entire saga.
Here's what he actually said:-

‘What critics say right after the game, I don’t know what I think. If you asked them again would they say it now?

‘And I don’t care what Gary Neville said. He was a top player, then he was a manager for a short bit and now he is back to being an expert again.

‘But he is always very critical. I think he does it to everyone. I just hope that when I do well he will comment on that. We will see in the future.’

Neville's original response (and I think he should've ignored Karius in the same way as I think Klopp shouldn't have got involved) was to highlight the fact that Carragher was much more critical yet Neville was picked out.
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Old 18-12-2016, 21:09
CardioCortez
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Neville was better in the studio after that second half. He was getting pretty annoyed at the Arsenal midfield (yes one of them was injured) walking around during the game which at time was just moaning in a Lawrensonesque way.

On Sunday Supplement, Neville said he was fine with Karius saying things back to him but tried explaining the player didn't have anything to gain by doing so. Neville said more critical things of other players that evening yet this one only became the thing it did because the player and manager responded (and he was fine that they did). The media attempted to hang GNev out to dry on this one when his brother and Carragher said more/worse things and for the media to even suggest it's bullying is ludicrous.

One point I do want to make is something I said a week ago on here. Nev explained Sky were delighted two of their pundits were in the media spotlight and that is probably another reason this story has gone back and forth.
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Old 18-12-2016, 21:11
CardioCortez
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I groaned when Leslie referred to the goal as "a Christmas cracker."
In Bill's defence, he inferred that it was cheesy when he said the pun himself as a part of the goal call.

Leslie and Provan were excellent earlier. Of Sky's live games so far this weekend, they gave the best commentary.

Wonder if it'll be Hinchcliffe tomorrow with Hawthorne (I hope it is as he's excellent) or if they'll reuse Smith this weekend or give it to Quinn.
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Old 18-12-2016, 21:15
pakokelso93
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Speaking of Sutton, that reminds me...

Did anyone notice that following their on-air spat, Chris Sutton and Stephen Craigan were kept apart on BT for the Hamilton v Rangers game the other night?

Sutton nearly always joins the pundits before and after the match, but he didn't on this occasion.

I would question whether I'm reading too much into it, and I probably am, but given that it is something out of the ordinary and occurred in the very next game after what happened the other day I thought it might be more than just a coincidence.
You are as they were together quite a bit pre-game... On the Scottish Football Extra (Al La Football Tonight but pre-game and it is very good) They had their usual 'black room VT head to head' and also chatted in the main studio and pitchside with Eilidh Barbour. Also they both were in the main studio for the first 10-15 mins of the main match build up at 7:15pm. They used a 3-man comms team so just to bring Butcher back in at FT in the studio for only really 10 mins post-match.

Also they had a light hearted debate on BT Sport Score on Saturday too.

In Bill's defence, he inferred that it was cheesy when he said the pun himself as a part of the goal call.

Leslie and Provan were excellent earlier. Of Sky's live games so far this weekend, they gave the best commentary.

Wonder if it'll be Hinchcliffe tomorrow with Hawthorne (I hope it is as he's excellent) or if they'll reuse Smith this weekend or give it to Quinn.
Agreed. He kinda mentioned 'It has to be said... but that was a Christmas cracker!'

Not one for scripting commentary material but fits with time of the year and a good goal... So nowt wrong with the word play for me.
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Old 18-12-2016, 21:29
sat-ire
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Neville was better in the studio after that second half. He was getting pretty annoyed at the Arsenal midfield (yes one of them was injured) walking around during the game which at time was just moaning in a Lawrensonesque way.

On Sunday Supplement, Neville said he was fine with Karius saying things back to him but tried explaining the player didn't have anything to gain by doing so. Neville said more critical things of other players that evening yet this one only became the thing it did because the player and manager responded (and he was fine that they did). The media attempted to hang GNev out to dry on this one when his brother and Carragher said more/worse things and for the media to even suggest it's bullying is ludicrous.

One point I do want to make is something I said a week ago on here. Nev explained Sky were delighted two of their pundits were in the media spotlight and that is probably another reason this story has gone back and forth.
Thanks for clarifying the Sunday Supplement situation. I quoted the MEN - as I said at that time I hadn't seen the programme.
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Old 18-12-2016, 21:30
The Scout
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You are as they were together quite a bit pre-game... On the Scottish Football Extra (Al La Football Tonight but pre-game and it is very good) They had their usual 'black room VT head to head' and also chatted in the main studio and pitchside with Eilidh Barbour. Also they both were in the main studio for the first 10-15 mins of the main match build up at 7:15pm. They used a 3-man comms team so just to bring Butcher back in at FT in the studio for only really 10 mins post-match.

Also they had a light hearted debate on BT Sport Score on Saturday too.
I keep forgetting about that pre-game show. I catch the last few minutes of it at the start of each match that I have set to record. Still, surprised that they were in the game show itself because I could've sworn that they weren't.

Anyway, thanks - but nevermind. That was a post I scrambled together after I posted in the wrong thread. I felt obliged to edit it into something relevant to this thread. I probably wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise.

Agreed. He kinda mentioned 'It has to be said... but that was a Christmas cracker!'

Not one for scripting commentary material but fits with time of the year and a good goal... So nowt wrong with the word play for me.
Yep, the way he delivered the line made it fun and not cheesy.

In fact, I thought it was quite un-Leslie-like.
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Old 18-12-2016, 22:39
mlt11
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I've been busy this week so haven't followed all aspects of the Karius debate.

However I have seen some interesting stats - in terms of both Save % and Actual vs Expected Goals conceded Karius has actually performed better than Mignolet so far this season.

Has Neville or Carragher or indeed any TV pundit or any newspaper journalist actually stated the above? If not, I wonder if any of them are even aware of it?

If anyone is aware of it then maybe the questioning might be why Klopp has dropped Karius?

From the bits I've heard the impression I got was people were very quick to make conclusive judgements based on a couple of incidents.
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Old 18-12-2016, 22:45
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Re Oxlade Chamberlain - I was in the car all afternoon so heard R5L and no TV.

I’m interested in the above comments re the TV coverage because on R5L neither Alan Green nor Danny Mills were aware that Oxlade Chamberlain was injured.

Indeed when he was substituted they expressed surprise and specifically said they didn’t think he could be injured. They said he threw his shirt at the bench and believed that further suggested he couldn’t be injured.

Shows how difficult commentating live can be.

The issue was compounded because it resulted in talk about Wenger's tactics making no sense bringing on someone only to then substitute them and that line of discussion then continued on 606 with Jason Mohammad and Ian Wright also completely unaware of the injury.
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Old 18-12-2016, 23:02
sat-ire
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I've been busy this week so haven't followed all aspects of the Karius debate.

However I have seen some interesting stats - in terms of both Save % and Actual vs Expected Goals conceded Karius has actually performed better than Mignolet so far this season.

Has Neville or Carragher or indeed any TV pundit or any newspaper journalist actually stated the above? If not, I wonder if any of them are even aware of it?

If anyone is aware of it then maybe the questioning might be why Klopp has dropped Karius?

From the bits I've heard the impression I got was people were very quick to make conclusive judgements based on a couple of incidents.
"Save % and Actual vs Expected Goals conceded"

This whole stats thing is destroying football, or at least the perception of it.

Klopp rightly looked at actual points won versus expected points won and in games Karius played in Liverpool dropped points and they did because of goalkeeping errors (not saying the defence weren't at fault either btw).

Overall I do agree that punditry is a little lazier than it could be but that might be down to impending ad breaks (not seeing much of the actual footage live)>
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Old 18-12-2016, 23:12
pakokelso93
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I keep forgetting about that pre-game show. I catch the last few minutes of it at the start of each match that I have set to record. Still, surprised that they were in the game show itself because I could've sworn that they weren't.

Anyway, thanks - but nevermind. That was a post I scrambled together after I posted in the wrong thread. I felt obliged to edit it into something relevant to this thread. I probably wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise. .
Not to rub it in - double confirmation
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Old 18-12-2016, 23:41
The Difference
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I only realised when they were plugging the Boxing Day edition that it'll actually be on air when a Championship match is being played and is live on Sky Sports, so their coverage of Newcastle vs Sheffield Wednesday might be very odd. I'm assuming that might require the ever-unpopular pundits-talking-over-the-goals approach. That said, it won't be the first time C5 will have done a highlights show when the thing they're showing highlights of is still happening, they've started test match highlights when the test match has still been going on before.
If that's the case, I promise I'll cut them some slack for doing that in this instance!

They wouldn't be the first broadcaster to have members of their studio team talk over action that has just concluded or is still ongoing as they go to air, I've seen a few highlights shows (from football and other sports) who've done this in similar circumstances. For obvious reasons, Newcastle United v Sheffield Wednesday will almost certainly be left to the final segment of The Championship section of Football on 5 that night.
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