Couple of points/observations:
I watched bits of the end of coverage of BT game and thought was excellent discussion/arguments between Owen, Wright and Savage, particularly discussing the decisions by Clatenburg (sp?) I actually don't mind these 3 in the studio, Owen I think especially is very good pundit. Wright and Savage may not be the most articulate but at least they have an opinion and are passionate.

I thought it was billed that Quinn would be the regular pundit on the Irish 3pm game? I am not complaining as tink he a decent pundit so glad we get him still on Uk games.

You have to remember that the PL coverage and UCL coverage are made by different companies, so there are bound to be differences in style between them, even if they share talent.

Yes i agree with that, it was a very good discussion and one thing for sure Owen will stick to his gun's and makes very valid points, always said he is a very good pundit.

Ian Wright as well i think is very good and never holds back on Arsenal point of views, always speaks his mind.

Only thing is Jake Humphreys always seems smug as ever when chairing these discussions.

Some more details from European matches yesterday:

French Ligue 1 - Nantes v Monaco:

BT Sport 1 (Delayed Coverage) - David Crossan



And, here are details of the 2 Dutch Eredivisie matches, both shown on Sky Sports 3 as Delayed Coverage:

Ajax v Willem II - Simon Mann and Tony Cascarino
PEC Zwolle v PSV Eindhoven - Phil Blacker and Gary Breen

EFL: Championship - Ipswich v Norwich (Sky Sports 1):

Scott Minto presenting from Portman Road with Darren Eadie and David Johnson. David Craig reporting.

Commentators - Gary Weaver and David Prutton

Hopefully Leslie and Hinchcliffe will be on PL today as I don't think they've done any FL this weekend?

Chinese Super League - Jiangsu Suning v Beijing Guoan:

Sky Sports 5 - Paul Walker

Premier League (Nissan Super Sunday) - Sunderland v Middlesbrough (Sky Sports 1):

David Jones presenting from the Olympic Stadium with Niall Quinn and Jamie Redknapp. Greg Whelan is reporting from the Stadium of Light.

Commentators - Bill Leslie and Andy Hinchcliffe

BBC Final Score (Saturday)

(1430-1730 BBC Sport Website / Connected TVs)
(1430-1638 BBC Red Button 'channel' 6)
(1600-1700 BBC Two Wales / England / NI)

Jacqui Oatley hosted with Jason Roberts and Martin Keown, with Mark Clemmit on 'EFL watch'

Stoke City v Manchester United (1230BST) - Alistair Mann (FT only)
Tottenham Hotspur v Crystal Palace - Chris Wise
Burnley v Liverpool - Eilidh Barbour
Watford v Chelsea - Robyn Cowen
Swansea City v Hull City - Mike Williams
West Bromwich Albion v Everton - Damian Johnson

Manchester United v Southampton (Friday) - Steve Wilson

Reading v Brightoon & Hove Albion - Steve Bennett
Huddersfield Town v Barnsley - Derm Tanner
Fulham v Tan FC - Marc Webber
Queen's Park Rangers v Preston North End - John Watson
Rotherham United v Brentford - Sue Smith
Bristol City v Newcastle United - Carl Roberts
Birmingham City v Wolverhampton Wanderers - Andy Stevenson
Nottingham Forest v Wigan Athletic - Ivan Gaskell
Blackburn Rovers v Burton Albion - David Donaldson

St Johnstone v Celtic (1215BST) - Roddy Forsyth (FT only)
Heart of Midlothian v Inverness Caledonian Thistle - Ian Turner

Leicester City v Arsenal (1730BST) - Vicki Sparks

Nothing that exciting to whimsy about with this one, except when Alistair Mann's full time report went silent before you'd hear Alistair speak "Shall we do that one again then?"

This Saturday'll see it as finishing at 6pm. No idea why, but what I would like to have is for the bit where Mark come sinto the 'proper' studio to do less thgan a minute talk about the Football League (before he pisses off again) be extended to a good three/four minutes. Probably a bit difficult to do when the guests there are more PL games focused.

(Listed in order of appearance)

I am!
No, actually, I've skipped through quite a bit of the discussions on here, and a lot of it makes for excellent reading!
Not going to get into commenting much myself, though, at the moment, guys, as unfortunately, my wife, who suffers from a rare-ish illness affecting her mobility, has now had a fall and needed a hospital operation for a broken hip.

So fresh issues for me to deal with as her carer, and, although I'll keep an eye on the thread when I can, I shan't be posting for a little while.

I will be back though!

For the record, I'm one of the older generation who's perfectly happy to see a bit of team news, hear a couple of interviews, take in a little pre-match punditry from the experts for a few minutes, and then just watch the game!


But I do realise, of course, it's a different world out there now and, given my own background, I'm obviously all in favour of some banter!
Football takes itself far too seriously sometimes.

I'm afraid, though, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, I just don't have the desire or the incentive to devote up to what appears to have been around FOUR hours to ONE game in one evening.

See you all soon!

That's twice now Sky have used pundits Saturday and Sunday. Quinn this week and Redknapp/Henry last.

French Ligue 1 - Guingamp v Marseille:

BT Sport 1 - Ben Andrews and Nigel Spackman

St Etienne v Montpellier- John Roder for BT

Alistair Mann was commentating on BBC1 on MOTD and on the BBC2 on the Olympic Football final live at the same time.

The pub I was in had the audio from the Olympic final on with MOTD on some screens at the same time, it confusing which screen to look at some points!

Oh no Peter, really hope all is well.

Take great care the both of you and hope to hear from you soon.

See, this is where I have a problem with this discussion. Nobody forces anyone to watch all the build-up but the way some people post on this thread you'd swear someone had tied them to a chair and put the remote control out of reach.

Anyone who doesn't want or agree with a 90 minute build-up to a game, or the style of said build-up, don't watch it.

Alternatively, record the programme and join it with 30 minutes left to kick off and use the FF button to just watch the bits of interest if you want the more 'traditional' analysis.

When I'm not at the match all I'm really interested in is seeing the match

Seems incredibly simple to me

For obvious reasons I didn't see the Sky programme on Friday. From feedback and what I've read I would imagine it would appeal to families sitting around and watching the build-up moreso than usual pre-match analysis.

Is that a bad thing?

PS Peter I hope you wife gets well soon

Best wishes to you and your wife, Peter.

Goes without saying that real life is far more important than any minutiae discussions we have on here that are minor in comparison.
Hope all goes well.

Hope to see you posting back at some point - without wanting to post on behalf of everyone I think we've all really enjoyed your posts and contributions to the thread. Always interesting to hear your views.


A bit of a belt tightening at Sky perhaps. Which makes sense - Sky News seems in particular seems to be bearing the brunt of the PL rights spending with all sorts of correspondents and presenters being made redundant whereas Sky Sports at least on screen seems fairly protected so far but will obviously have to make some savings and cutbacks too.

Nice to see Hinchcliffe get a PL game. I did think given Neville's return and Carragher appearing on co-commentary that Hinchcliffe might just be demoted back to the Football League full time. However, it appears actually that Sky might just use more of a mix of co-commentators and that Hinchcliffe will still get some PL commentaries which is great news as he really is fantastic.

Leslie and Hinchcliffe were a really enjoyable listen in that last game. Great pairing.

Geoff Shreeves is reporting at the Olympic Stadium.

Hawthorne and Smith at the Olympic Stadium.

Smith's pulling double duty again this weekend. 4 games to co-comm on in the first two weekends. I wonder if some of these games are ones which Carragher may eventually take.

West Ham United v AFC Bournemouth (Sky Sports 1)

Commentators: Rob Hawthorne and Alan Smith

So Sky are using the Saturday 3pm game for Ireland as part of their rota with main commentators and not a separate Football First rota.

Man U vs Southampton - Introduced by Jeff Stelling and Rachel Riley with Jamie Carragher, Ryan Giggs, Thierry Henry and Jamie Redknapp, commentary by Martin Tyler and Alan Smith
Stoke vs Man City - Introduced by Simon Thomas with Niall Quinn and Graeme Souness, commentary by Alan Parry and Davie Provan
Leicester vs Arsenal - Introduced by Jake Humphrey with Michael Owen and Ian Wright, commentary by Darren Fletcher, Robbie Savage and Glenn Hoddle
Derby vs Villa - Introduced by Kelly Cates with Danny Higginbotham and Ian Holloway, commentary by Daniel Mann and Don Goodman
Ipswich vs Norwich - Introduced by Scott Minto with Darren Eadie and David Johnson, commentary by Gary Weaver and David Prutton
Super Sunday - Introduced by Dave Jones with Niall Quinn and Jamie Redknapp, Sunderland vs Middlesbrough commentary by Bill Leslie and Andy Hinchcliffe, West Ham vs Bournemouth commentary by Rob Hawthorne and Alan Smith


Well, indeed. It reminds me of when they did The Premiership on ITV and Des Lynam said in the meetings beforehand, the executives were saying "What we don't want is just Match of the Day", and Des was saying that yes, we do. There's clearly a desire in broadcasting to want to look like you're innovating, but the fact is there is virtually nothing you can add to live football or football highlights, really - because of what football is.

So when Channel Four started doing The Analyst on the cricket, it was a proper innovation to the coverage, and fitted into the rhythm of the game. ITV tried to copy that was the Tactics Truck, but it was pointless because you couldn't do it during the game. But that's football, you can't do anything during the game because there are no stoppages. So the potential for innovation is very limited, but broadcasters still want to look like they're innovating and are making a difference.


I would say so. The BT studio has flexibility in that they do have this big area to play with, where they can do all the augmented reality like on Score with big maps and graphics, but there are also little seating areas so it can also look quite intimate on screen. And in addition, in the BT studio you can see the gallery and the researchers in vision, so it feels like a proper hub which actually has a purpose in being that size.

Whereas on Sky, especially in the last season of Saturday nights when there was no audience, it's just a big room with nothing in it, and the presenters and pundits just walk around for no reason, and there's no atmosphere at all. It made sense when they started it and the idea was it going to be some kind of mission control, but they soon went off that idea.


Yes, I noticed that, normally in situations like that, when it was from a BT match, they would get someone to do a pretend commentary. He was very prominent indeed.


Yes, a busy week for Wilson as well, as he's also at West Ham today. The fact that Wilson and Mowbray had both been sent to rather dull games that got stuck at the end made it even more obvious that with Brotherton and Bower unavailable, and no Pearce for whatever reason, they were rather low of commentators, with Nigel Adderley making his first MOTD appearance for several seasons, and Mark Scott and Tony Husband high up on the running order. It reminded me of one around 2000, when they didn't have a commentator on every match, where Motty and Baz were both doing 0-0s so the show was led with a blatant off-tube from Gerald Sinstadt.


Leslie hasn't done any Football League for two weekends running now, so maybe we won't hear him on that very much at all this season. Presumably he'll do some next weekend when Sky only have three Premier League matches, but I think it might be the case that Leslie is primarily on the Premier League and does the Football League occasionally, rather than the other way round.


You've missed out the most important thing, which was Mark Scott in vision! He got to do the prestigious (to my mind) 5.10pm piece to camera, which I think is the sign you've made it at the Beeb. The other bit I liked was Jason Roberts suggesting Jacqui had got a bit over-excited off camera when Wolves scored and she immediately shot back with "Oh my God, some of us are a bit more professional, thank you!". Busy weekend for Eilidh Barbour too, she was at Old Trafford on Friday night to do a report for Football Focus, then presented Football Focus, then by three o'clock she was at Burnley to report for Final Score.

Or is it possible that as Tyler was in Manchester on Friday, assigning another weekend game in Greater Manchester made sense - and covers a likely top Match Choice game as well as being live in the Republic?

He's the only one who got two live games this weekend too.

Yes, and I'm sorry to say that I thought it was an absolute disaster. And I think Sky know it as well, because on Goals on Sunday today, they did a montage of all the "best" bits, and after it Ben turned to Chris Kamara and said "Looks like you had a good time, Kammy!", and Kamara said "Er, yeah, and of course it was only the first one and obviously it'll get better...". The fact he was so quick to leap to its defence speaks volumes.

I thought it was absolutely dire, it did nothing new or innovative and irritated me immensely. In addition, In Off The Bar, the spin-off programme, was probably the worst television programme I have ever seen in my life. It was promoted as part of the coverage and so as much a part of this as Fletch and Sav was in the BT coverage, and Fletch and Sav was a million times better than this. The only thing I enjoyed was Alan Smith clearly thinking he was off camera and looking thunderously pissed off at having to sit through several minutes of someone beatboxing.

As for the show itself, Rachel Riley would seem the perfect choice for a presenter. She's a hugely popular and professional presenter, she's hugely intelligent and can be very funny on Catsdown, and we know she's an enormous football fan. As I mentioned when it was announced too, they presumably chose her ahead the existing presenters so she could add something different, like Adrian Chiles on MOTD2. But now, I don't know why they didn't get an existing presenter in, because if she's just going to read stuff off the autocue, what's the point? You can say you could have got Jeff to do it all, but similarly you could have got Rachel to do it all. I like the idea of two presenters if they're going to bounce off each other and get an amusing double act going, but if they're just going to take it in turns to read stuff off the autocue, why bother?

Also, I am not especially one to complain about big club bias, because you go where the news is. It's clear to everyone that Manchester United were the big story, because it was the new manager's first home game and their record signing's first game, so obviously you're going to give them the lion's share of coverage. But this was just ridiculous, Southampton barely got a look in. Right down to the opening montage (shown twice) ending "Manchester United live on Sky Sports!", plus all of Kamara's excited running around saying what a great stadium it was, plus (I know this can't be helped) a well known Manchester United fan as host. I know they're the big draw, but it was far, far too much The Manchester United Show.

And the entertainment. Clips from A League Of Their Own and that contrived bit about dancing is not good enough. This is not meant to sound humourless because I would be delighted to have more humour in football coverage. I really like things like Football Cliches on Twitter and David Squires in The Guardian and we need a greater sense of perspective in football coverage - indeed, I sometimes think Monday Night Football can take things far too seriously, sometimes coming across as BSc. (Hons) Premier League Studies with Professor G Neville, laboriously winding back footage to see who to blame for a goal once and for all, as if it's important.

I know Sky aren't going to bite the hand that feeds them and start taking the piss out of the Premier League, but there has to be a happy medium. I think the BBC team get it right, Mark Chapman and Dan Walker have proven that again at the Olympics, and indeed at the start of the overnight Olympic coverage on Friday night they did a very funny A-Team parody montage which generated genuine laughter from the pundits and really made me laugh.

But bringing on "Tubes" to do a dance-off is definitely not what I want to see, that whole kind of humour is so in-jokey and cliquey. Half the audience don't know who he is so don't get the joke, of those that do half don't like him. It's BANTER and LOLZ and it's rubbish. It's one step up from laughing at haircuts and ties. I know it's just a bit of fun, and sorry to sound humourless, but it's simply not good enough.

Also, I thought the point of this was to get in celebrities and make it seem like an occasion. To be honest, I wouldn't mind this - there are certainly plenty of celebrities who like and know about football and could add something new to proceedings. Bob Mortimer did the predictions on Football Focus yesterday and was very funny and someone like that would be the perfect choice. You've also got the example of the late show during London 2012 when they had people from other sports like John McEnroe, adding a different perspective again. So it wouldn't be a bad idea. But we had one celebrity on In Off The Bar, and it was Heavy D. Someone off Big Brother on the publicity trail, as seen as every other two bit cheap show. Pathetic. Do it properly or not at all.

I thought the whole show was probably the worst thing Sky have ever done. I would be amazed if half of these items return when they do the next Friday night game. It's all very well saying "Oh, you're not in the target audience, just switch on at kick-off", when things like Fletch and Sav and the trampoline advert get dredged up every time to slag off the whole of BT. If I were BT I'd be laughing my head off.

Hawthorne rather made a mess of the sending off.