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DAB+: When will the big boys wake up?
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Tee Hee
10-08-2016
[quote=Lengon;83522153]
Originally Posted by kev:
“Jack and Jack 2 Surrey have been given authorisation to migrate from DAB to DAB+.

No surprise to see that it's Matt's organisation that's leading the way.”

No disrespect to Matt, but I'd say it's the small scale operators that are leading the way. Portsmouth now have 10 DAB+ stations on their mux and Manchester has 11 DAB+ services. It also looks like Manchester is only doing stereo on 48 kbps. Very wise.
Lengon
10-08-2016
[quote=Tee Hee;83524155]
Originally Posted by Lengon:
“
No disrespect to Matt, but I'd say it's the small scale operators that are leading the way. Portsmouth now have 10 DAB+ stations on their mux and Manchester has 11 DAB+ services. It also looks like Manchester is only doing stereo on 48 kbps. Very wise.”

That's true but we're talking about the big boys who have yet to stir themselves. Perhaps they need the minimuxes to show them how.
Orangy
10-08-2016
[quote=Tee Hee;83524155]
Originally Posted by Lengon:
“
No disrespect to Matt, but I'd say it's the small scale operators that are leading the way. Portsmouth now have 10 DAB+ stations on their mux and Manchester has 11 DAB+ services. It also looks like Manchester is only doing stereo on 48 kbps. Very wise.”

The Small Scale operators are a whole different kettle of fish. This is one of the first 'big boy's' multiplexes at a local level with a permanent DAB+ service, and potentially importantly, one that covers much of London. The first non SDL service to be DAB+ in the area.

Hopefully Jack will see the light and drop to half rate sampling or up to 48k. Full rate sampling at 40k won't be amazing sadly.
Alan Thew
10-08-2016
Obviously the geeks on here (and I don't mean that as an insult) are pleased at any migration to DAB+, but I can't honestly see how this makes commercial sense. The maths just doesn't add up. No one knows how many DAB+ radios are out there, but the most likely well-informed guess we've seen is Matt's, at post 25 of this thread, which estimates less than 40% of DAB radios can receive DAB+.

Now if DAB bandwidth is charged purely pro-rata, then by migrating their two stations from 160 kbit/s to 72 kbit/s, Jack will be paying 45% of what they paid before. I don't know if there's a standing charge of some kind just to be on the mux, in which case they'll be paying more. Plus, presumably, all other station costs remain the same as before. So, they lose most of their DAB listeners, but their total costs are not reduced anything like in proportion.

If Jack's move has been forced because they simply can't afford the total 160 kbit/s, wouldn't they be better off closing the less-listened-to service and continuing just the other in vanilla DAB? That way, they would be guaranteed to be switching off less than half their listeners. This way, by Matt's estimate, they're switching off more than half their listeners. Aren't they?
d'@ve
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by Alan Thew:
“Obviously the geeks on here (and I don't mean that as an insult) are pleased at any migration to DAB+, but I can't honestly see how this makes commercial sense. The maths just doesn't add up. No one knows how many DAB+ radios are out there, but the most likely well-informed guess we've seen is Matt's, at post 25 of this thread, which estimates less than 40% of DAB radios can receive DAB+.”

Maybe true, but some of us (who knows how many?) won't even get a DAB radio until DAB+ becomes the standard. Though even then, if all the broadcasters do is halve their bandwidths or more, to provide the same quality as now, many of us won't touch it even then. The commercial "race to the bottom" is a problem and only OFCOM can stop that by setting minimum and good enough quality standards to satisfy everyone (except of course the 24 bit/100% lossless brigade but they are less likely to be radio listeners anyway).
kev
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by Alan Thew:
“Obviously the geeks on here (and I don't mean that as an insult) are pleased at any migration to DAB+, but I can't honestly see how this makes commercial sense. The maths just doesn't add up. No one knows how many DAB+ radios are out there, but the most likely well-informed guess we've seen is Matt's, at post 25 of this thread, which estimates less than 40% of DAB radios can receive DAB+”

The first, not directly comparable admittedly, hint we have is from Magic - which on SDL National has seen the DAB+ Magic Chilled get 60% of the reach of Mellow Magic (or 56% of Virgin Radio if you prefer), not too shabby (and the former has the advantage of being a known brand which might also be getting some London FM/Digital 1 Magic listeners ticking Mellow Magic)...

I wonder what the number of DAB+ households is (i.e. I have three DAB radios with DAB+, but a further four without (of which two get used regularly) - and even better that that is by area...

http://www.mattdeegan.com/2016/08/04/rajar-q22016/

In any case if some audience is lost, starting from roughly the same audience as the analogue Jack in Oxfordshire isn't too shabby, and natural growth may cancel out some of the loss anyway.
hanssolo
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by Alan Thew:
“Now if DAB bandwidth is charged purely pro-rata, then by migrating their two stations from 160 kbit/s to 72 kbit/s, Jack will be paying 45% of what they paid before. I don't know if there's a standing charge of some kind just to be on the mux, in which case they'll be paying more. Plus, presumably, all other station costs remain the same as before. So, they lose most of their DAB listeners, but their total costs are not reduced anything like in proportion.

If Jack's move has been forced because they simply can't afford the total 160 kbit/s, wouldn't they be better off closing the less-listened-to service and continuing just the other in vanilla DAB? That way, they would be guaranteed to be switching off less than half their listeners. This way, by Matt's estimate, they're switching off more than half their listeners. Aren't they?”

From it's first and only Rajar "JACKfm Surrey (including JACK 2)" in Vanilla DAB is 55k listeners. It is not clear how the difference is between the 2 stations as they are after different audiences and if there are out of area London listeners.
The figure is twice JACKfm, 107 (Berkshire) gets!

Presumably they will see how things go next Rajar, if they do roll out to other areas DAB+ on the commercial local muxes will be a good saving as well as going stereo.
Jack 2 seems to be almost the same as Eagle 3?
Orangy
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by hanssolo:
“From it's first and only Rajar "JACKfm Surrey (including JACK 2)" in Vanilla DAB is 55k listeners. It is not clear how the difference is between the 2 stations as they are after different audiences and if there are out of area London listeners.
The figure is twice JACKfm, 107 (Berkshire) gets!

Presumably they will see how things go next Rajar, if they do roll out to other areas DAB+ on the commercial local muxes will be a good saving as well as going stereo.
Jack 2 seems to be almost the same as Eagle 3?”

I believe Eagle 3 is there for licensing commitments. A chart hit station was part of the license agreement. Jack 2 came along later.

Jack has done very well in Surrey.
jaffboy151
10-08-2016
Sadly it seems most of these changes are happening to save money, or provide more choice... not improve listening quality.
32kbits does not sound good on any station using so far, the best is jazz FM, mainly down to the music type, 64kbits would be a good level, 48kbits can sound quite good too as some stations on the Manchester mux, but as it stands, long term I'd rather listen to a mono stream as the metallic sound begins to grate on me fairly quickly on a 32kbit station
Orangy
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by jaffboy151:
“Sadly it seems most of these changes are happening to save money, or provide more choice... not improve listening quality.
32kbits does not sound good on any station using so far, the best is jazz FM, mainly down to the music type, 64kbits would be a good level, 48kbits can sound quite good too as some stations on the Manchester mux, but as it stands, long term I'd rather listen to a mono stream as the metallic sound begins to grate on me fairly quickly on a 32kbit station”

See how it sounds once it's live. Then tell Jack. I will be if it's too grating.
tghe-retford
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by jaffboy151:
“Sadly it seems most of these changes are happening to save money, or provide more choice... not improve listening quality.
32kbits does not sound good on any station using so far, the best is jazz FM, mainly down to the music type, 64kbits would be a good level, 48kbits can sound quite good too as some stations on the Manchester mux, but as it stands, long term I'd rather listen to a mono stream as the metallic sound begins to grate on me fairly quickly on a 32kbit station”

Unlike with joint stereo, downgrading from parametric stereo to mono on DAB+ will only save 2-3kbps if I recall. Pointless as you now have the same issue as before but in mono.
anthony david
10-08-2016
[quote=Tee Hee;83524155]
Originally Posted by Lengon:
“
No disrespect to Matt, but I'd say it's the small scale operators that are leading the way. Portsmouth now have 10 DAB+ stations on their mux and Manchester has 11 DAB+ services. It also looks like Manchester is only doing stereo on 48 kbps. Very wise.”

How many listeners have these stations got?
Tee Hee
10-08-2016
[quote=anthony david;83526605]
Originally Posted by Tee Hee:
“
How many listeners have these stations got?”

You missed the point. This is about leadership (not listenership).

Leadership is what delivers change and improvement: Leadership is an open road. Listenership is a perpetual hamster wheel.
Icaraa
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by jaffboy151:
“Sadly it seems most of these changes are happening to save money, or provide more choice... not improve listening quality.
32kbits does not sound good on any station using so far, the best is jazz FM, mainly down to the music type, 64kbits would be a good level, 48kbits can sound quite good too as some stations on the Manchester mux, but as it stands, long term I'd rather listen to a mono stream as the metallic sound begins to grate on me fairly quickly on a 32kbit station”

I'd be interested to hear 48kbps DAB+ as I see many stations on the continent have gone for that. I'm assuming it sounds pretty good.

Is it as good as 128kbps DAB would people say?
Resonance
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by Icaraa:
“
Yes but aren't MuxCo the ones that are pushing the awful 32kbps DAB+? Or are the station owners actually requesting that?”

It's down to the stations to choose how much bandwidth they want afaik (within the limitations of what the mux has available at the time).
Gerry1
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by Resonance:
“It's down to the stations to choose how much bandwidth they want afaik (within the limitations of what the mux has available at the time).”

Apparently not, according to the one of the FAQs that Jazz FM posted, although it's since been removed.
Resonance
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by Gerry1:
“Apparently not, according to the one of the FAQs that Jazz FM posted, although it's since been removed.”

Sounds like the mux didn't have enough extra bandwidth to give them?

We didn't choose it. It was what the people who own the transmitters offered us. It's a bit like renting rooms in a house - the landlord has a variety of rooms, but it comes down to what's available at that time and whether you can afford to rent it. We think it's great to be in this house, so we've taken the available room. In an ideal world we'd have a bigger more luxurious room, but we think this one will work, and we're able to pay the rent."
anthony david
10-08-2016
[quote=Tee Hee;83527803]
Originally Posted by anthony david:
“
You missed the point. This is about leadership (not listenership).

Leadership is what delivers change and improvement: Leadership is an open road. Listenership is a perpetual hamster wheel.”

"Leadership" a worrying phrase given european history over the last century.

This is your "leadership" multiplex in Manchester.

http://www.niocast.com
Colin_London
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by Icaraa:
“I'd be interested to hear 48kbps DAB+ as I see many stations on the continent have gone for that. I'm assuming it sounds pretty good.

Is it as good as 128kbps DAB would people say?”

Yes - the Codec WAS DESIGNED for 48kbps.

Anything less than that is going to introduce audible artefacts. And 32kbps is clearly too low. You can't get away with it in the same way as MP2 - the operating tolerance of the codec is very narrow.
moox
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by Icaraa:
“I'd be interested to hear 48kbps DAB+ as I see many stations on the continent have gone for that. I'm assuming it sounds pretty good.

Is it as good as 128kbps DAB would people say?”

Find a 48kbps AAC internet radio station and you'll probably get a close approximation
tghe-retford
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by moox:
“Find a 48kbps AAC internet radio station and you'll probably get a close approximation”

Close approximation because you need to factor in the FEC and PAD before you get the true audio bitrate for a DAB+ stream.

Gross bitrate * 0.9 - PAD (1kbps for UK services).

A 48kbps DAB+ stream would have a audio bitrate of approximately 42.2kbps. To get near the 48kbps audio sweetspot, you need to broadcast at 56kbps.
disrember
10-08-2016
Originally Posted by Resonance:
“Sounds like the mux didn't have enough extra bandwidth to give them?

We didn't choose it. It was what the people who own the transmitters offered us. It's a bit like renting rooms in a house - the landlord has a variety of rooms, but it comes down to what's available at that time and whether you can afford to rent it. We think it's great to be in this house, so we've taken the available room. In an ideal world we'd have a bigger more luxurious room, but we think this one will work, and we're able to pay the rent."”

Both Jazz FM and Fun Kids, used the same statement and Matt from Fun Kids confirmed that D2 only allowed them 32kbs
peter_sharp1uk
11-08-2016
The station's must be set up differently as Jazzfm sounds a lot nicer than magic chilled and fun kids at the same bit rates.
Icaraa
11-08-2016
Originally Posted by Resonance:
“It's down to the stations to choose how much bandwidth they want afaik (within the limitations of what the mux has available at the time).”

My guess is they are only being offered 32kbps as the DAB+ option and they couldn't choose 48kbps even if they wanted it, which is ridiculous.

It's in the mux operator's interest to say 32kbps sounds great because they can fit in more stations at 32kbps than 48kbps.

Originally Posted by Colin_London:
“Yes - the Codec WAS DESIGNED for 48kbps.

Anything less than that is going to introduce audible artefacts. And 32kbps is clearly too low. You can't get away with it in the same way as MP2 - the operating tolerance of the codec is very narrow.”

Interesting reply, but no one seems to care about that over here. Cram them in, it'll be fine!
tghe-retford
11-08-2016
Originally Posted by peter_sharp1uk:
“The station's must be set up differently as Jazzfm sounds a lot nicer than magic chilled and fun kids at the same bit rates.”

There are less situations where what I call "low bitrate syndrome" kicks in, but it is still obvious in certain tracks - listen out for when Jazz FM plays Jacob Collier's Saviour.

But yes, I agree. Jazz FM have done some things to make it easier to listen to.
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