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Tom Watson: Labour is being infiltrated by "Trotsky entryists" |
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#51 |
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Quote:
There is a new bit in this saga on Channel 4 news.
Watson is like a dog with a bone, he now wants answers to written questions and it is Corbyn he wants them from. Seems like a do or die mission to get the leadership. |
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#52 |
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I'm pretty sure he doesn't want the leadership - I think he wants a proper political party back - one that can oppose the Tories, and one day take power. And he will need to see a big change before that can happen.
And I say this as someone who quite likes the fella. |
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#53 |
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Thing is, surely the sensible thing to do would have been to wait a bit. Chances are Corbyn wasn't going to last as long as the next GE; his leadership could have been quite a good opportunity for the PLP to see which of his policies DID fly with the public before presenting us with their new, more palatable to the centre but still appealing to the left Labour party; kind of an organic focus group. Now they've just strengthened his support and weakened their own credibility. Which means they COULD still be landed with him at the next GE, but have effectively crippled the party. Without all this malarkey he'd probably have been gone within a year or two anyway; probably would have stepped down himself, tbh. All they've done is make him determined not to be beaten and show that democracy is, if not dead, at least taking a severe kicking in the Labour party.
And I say this as someone who quite likes the fella. |
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#54 |
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Oops, could have made that clearer. Corbyn.
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#55 |
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Oops, could have made that clearer. Corbyn.
I think that is what Watson is trying to avoid.
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#56 |
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Quote:
I thought you meant him, hence why you would like to see the delays put in place to wreck the party completely.
I think that is what Watson is trying to avoid. ![]() |
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#57 |
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It's not the delay that's wrecking the party- it's the complete clusterf*** that is the attempt to remove him. Even if they DID want to do a leadership challenge right then (a dumb-ass time, when the Tories- who have now regrouped and strengthened) were in crisis, surely instead of spending all this time, effort and money trying to make sure he couldn't win through some loophole, finding a candidate who could beat him and spending all that energy promoting *them* would have been better? Because from the outside it doesn't look good. I mean, they've achieved nothing and have ended up looking really stupid and desperate. They could have been half-way through promoting decent challengers by now, instead of still being at the starting line with their running shorts full of poo. And he's had to do literally NOTHING to achieve this. Love him or hate him, you have to see this wasn't a very good way of going about getting rid of him.
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#58 |
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Quote:
It's not the delay that's wrecking the party- it's the complete clusterf*** that is the attempt to remove him. Even if they DID want to do a leadership challenge right then (a dumb-ass time, when the Tories- who have now regrouped and strengthened) were in crisis, surely instead of spending all this time, effort and money trying to make sure he couldn't win through some loophole, finding a candidate who could beat him and spending all that energy promoting *them* would have been better? Because from the outside it doesn't look good. I mean, they've achieved nothing and have ended up looking really stupid and desperate. They could have been half-way through promoting decent challengers by now, instead of still being at the starting line with their running shorts full of poo. And he's had to do literally NOTHING to achieve this. Love him or hate him, you have to see this wasn't a very good way of going about getting rid of him.
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#59 |
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It's kind of like rats running on to a ship to make it sink.
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#60 |
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Quote:
I thought the thread was about Watson saying the party was being infiltrated by the unwanted. You seem to be deflecting from that.
![]() Seriously, though, yes, that was probably better suited for another thread. |
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#61 |
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You are ignoring what is happening behind the scenes, the Momentum crew taking over the NEC and now moving on to get rid if McNichol, followed by mass de-selections. Rhea Wolfson has said just today that the party should not be keeping out other left wing party members. That is why the PLP had to act quickly, you cannot stand by and see the party infiltrated, with the blessing or wilful ignorance of The Leader.
But I fear we may be off the point. |
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#62 |
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Yeah, but this has been happening in response to the (imho) ill-timed coup attempt. That's the problem with getting this shit wrong; it mobilises your enemies to action. Give 'em enough rope and THEN move in, surely? They've consolidated his support and knackered a lot of their own.
But I fear we may be off the point. |
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#63 |
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You may be right but I suspect the enemies were already in action behind the scenes, the deselection threat and the takeover if the NEC have been planned since day 1 of Cirbyns leadership, I suspect.
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#64 |
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And the leadership challenge hasn't? There's some dark Machiavellian shit going on on both sides, I'll be bound.
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#65 |
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Watson's Covering Letter
Dear Jeremy,
I attach a short note in response to your spokesperson's press statement about conspiracy In the light of this public briefing, which I assume was not authorised by you, I think it important I set out my position. As far as I understand it, we are in agreement when it comes to dealing with members of other political parties and membership organisations that attempt to use the party as a vehicle to achieve their revolutionary aims. I know this because both you and John McDonnell have reassured the party that the only people you want to see register as Labour supporters are genuine Labour supporters — democratic socialists who want to stay for the longer course. It is worth repeating what I said to the Guardian about Momentum members in the interview published on Tuesday. "Some of these people are deeply interested in political change, in building a more equal society, and are just on a journey in politics that they're new to, and I don't want them to feel that I'm labelling them because I'm not. But there are some old hands twisting young arms in this process, and I'm under no illusions about what's going on. They are caucusing and factionalising and putting pressure where they can, and that's how Trotsky entryists operate. Sooner or later, that always end up in disaster". I have no doubt that many Momentum members are genuine in their desire to campaign vigorously against Tory inequality but there is no denying that tightly organised factions are also organising within Momentum and the party. My comments in the Guardian were amplifying what we both know to be true; that there has been an increase in members of proscribed organisations attempting to join the party, in particular members of the Socialist Party (formerly Militant) and the Alliance for Workers Liberty (formerly Socialist Organiser). We both receive the regular reports to the NEC with list the people from other political parties that have been excluded from our party. It's not a conspiracy theory to say that members of these organisations are joining Labour. It's a fact. I attach a document, drawn up using publicly available information, which shows this to be the case. To be clear, this information can be easily obtained on social media and by searching publications that are available online. I assume that you still support the proscription of other political parties. If the position had changed, please just let me know because I think it would be useful to discuss this within the vote at Annual Conference. For the avoidance of doubt, I am asking you to confirm that you believe members of the Socialist Party and the Alliance for Workers Liberty should not be allowed to be members of the Labour Party, given the proscription of these two groups (then called Militant and Socialist Organiser) by Annual Conference during Neil Kinnock's leadership. I hope we can continue to work together with our colleagues on the NEC to ensure that everyone who joins the Labour Party shares our aims and values. Finally, I attach a document that I am reliably informed is being shared between Momentum members with links to far-left parties, which summaries the methods used by Militant in the 1980s, as described in Michael Crick's book 'Militant'. It clearly goes against all the reforms we have been discussing on the NEC this year. How to take control of Labour party meetings. First, make the meetings boring. Flood the branches and constituency meetings with procedural requests, the minutes of the last meeting and process. This turns off the faint-hearted. Those with better things to do — attend to their family, careers or community groups — simply no longer turn up. Part two: make the event adversarial. Uncomradely questions to sitting councillors and the MP, challenging the chair's method and motive, defining the politics of the speaker before they have defined their own — all these things become the norm. This behaviour basically reduces the attendance of the remaining sensible types. Then the meeting [is] ours to control. Now for the piéce de resistance. Once the troublesome moderates — organised or otherwise — are out of the way, motions and debates on policy and political positions will commence. Each will pass almost by acclaim. No need for speeches against. If there is, allow it to be taken by the pantomime villain from the rump of 'Labour right' attending membership. From here on it will be easy and the minutes often reflect the result of debates as unanimous'. Subsequent speeches at Labour gatherings — Labour party conference and the like — will then be narrated with how much support they got at constituency Labour party level. With vigilance and leadership, I know we can tackle it together. Last edited by platelet : 11-08-2016 at 10:09. Reason: please note typos will be down to me converting the files, not Tom |
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#66 |
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Join Date: May 2002
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Watson's Dossier
1. Organising within Momentum branches to influence local Labour parties
Trotskyist Workers' Power group organising within Momentum branches The Trotskyist group Workers' Power, previously the UK branch of the League for the Fifth International, decided to enter into the Labour Party in September 2015 under the new name Red Flag. It is encouraging organising within Momentum branches and CLPs — urging supporters to pass a model motion against the PLP. htt : www.redfla online.or 2016 06 model-motion-or anise-to-defeat-the-rebels Labour Party Marxists push for mandatory reselection through Momentum Labour Party Marxists is a project by the Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee), a Trotskyist party, to enter into the Labour Party. Encouraging supporters to pass a model motion at Momentum branches calling for mandatory reselection of local MPs http://labourpartvmarxists.org.uk/wp...loads/lpm0010a 160707.pdf Alliance for Workers' Liberty planning 'influx into Momentum groups' to take over CLPs The Alliance for Workers' Liberty is the new name of Socialist Organiser, a Trotskyist entryist party proscribed by the Labour Party since 1990. It was registered with the Electoral Commission as a political party until late summer 2015 when it decided to take up entryism into Labour again. 'We must use the new upsurge around and influx into Momentum groups to put our organisation on a strongerfooting — above all by organising CLP and ward-level caucuses, fighting in the Labour Party ward by ward, and building local Young Labour groups, so we can run forward once Corbyn is re-elected". 'That is what Workers' Liberty is doing, in Momentum groups and committees, in Labour Parties, in trade unions, in the youth and student movements and on the streets" http://www.workersliberty.org/node/26898 "Join Momentum and get involved with it's campaigning. Set up constituency left caucuses and discuss the politics on which to fight for a Corbyn vote: free movement of labour; rebuild the NHS; fight the cuts and a new, renewed right-wing Tory government. " http://www.workersliberty.org/node/26830 2. Pro-Corbyn rallies and unofficial party meetings are being organised with hard-left Socialist Party organising pro-Corbyn rallies with local Momentum branches The Socialist Party is the new name of Militant /Revolutionary Socialist League, a Trotskyist entryist party proscribed by the Labour Party since the 1980s. It stands candidates against Labour as part of TUSC (Trade Union and Socialist Coalition) alongside the SWP. YORK: "Socialist Party member lain Dalton was also able to address the rally, unlike recent ones in nearby Leeds (*see footnote). *Footnote: This sentence was amended online on 15.7.16 to remove an inaccurate reference to Socialist Party members not being able to address previous Momentum meetings in York; the participation of Socialist Party members has in fact been welcomed in York Momentum. ' http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/kevword/Left and radical/Momentum/23205/13-072016/thousands-mobilising-to-keepcorbyn LEEDS: "Around 250 people gathered at short notice to demonstrate their support for Jeremy Corbyn in Leeds. The demonstration was called by Momentum after discussion with the Socialist Party and others from trade unions and campaigning groups around Leeds. " http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/keyword/Left and radical/Momentum/23178/06-072016/keep-corbyn-demonstrations-in-leeds Socialist Party: organise meetings to 'defy' Labour's NEC "Local parties should defy these edicts and continue meeting, or #Keep Corbyn meetings should be organised independently, including by trade union branches - and involving Corbyn supporters inside and outside the Labour Party. ' http://www.socialistpartv.org.uk/art...bourright-wing 3. Entryism into Labour via the unions Unite's mandatory reselection policy was moved by a Socialist Party member "Conference later heard speeches from Corbyn and McDonnell. Socialist Party member and Unite LE1228 branch secretary Kevin Parslow then moved the re-selection motion" http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/art...-of-labour-mps Labour Partv Marxists organise to infiltrate via affiliated supporters scheme and 'purge the right' 'within the affiliated trade unions we must fight to win many, many more to enrol...every constituency, branch (ward) and other such basic units must be seized, revived and galvanised by the left...Purge the right and transform the Labour Party' http://labourpartvmarxists.org.uk/defend-corbyn 4. Far-left volunteers staffing Corbyn campaign Socialist Resistance urges members to join Corbyn's campaign as volunteers 'Every single voter needs to be spoken to. This means volunteering the staff the phone banks that were such an important part of the original Corbyn election victory last year. It means going door to door. This is big work. ' http://socialistresistance.org/8601/a Il-hands-on-deck-to-help-ieremy-corbyn-win Momentum campaign sessions for Corbyno open to anyone outside party 'The meeting/session is open to members of Momentum, volunteers and supporters of Jeremy Corbyn" http://momentumbedford.uk/events/20/...ieremv-corbyn/ Evidence of expelled Labour member running phonebanks for Corbyn Jill Mountford (expelled from party in Feb 2016 as she is a leading member of proscribed party AWL): https://twitter.com/iillm1871/status/756603236061179908 Jill Mountford F0110'" Created logins for 60 Lewisham @PeoplesMomentum supporters to do phone bank work for JC whenever & wherever fitting around work & kids etc I've created the thick end of 60 logins tor Lewisham Momentum supporters to do phone bank work for JCs leadership campaign locally People are doing phoning from wherever and whenever is convenient. fitting it around work and kids and are generalty getting good results and feel really quite buoyant about it. I'm sure this is being replicated around the country a thousandtold„ a very efficient teanm Tomorrow we have stalls in different parts of the borough, getting people to sign the Support JC petition, leafleting, asking people to join the LP etc Share 5. SWP sets up training course to infiltrate Labour The Socialist Workers' Party has produced a series of materials for members to 'work alongside Labour Party members and supporters'. The courses aim to help the SWP's 'task [which] is to be part of the movement in support of Jeremy Corbyn' and includes materials for members on the history of the Labour Party, Leninist strategies and tactics, and a pamphlet on how the revolutionary left can capitalise on Corbyn's position as leader. htto://www.swp.org.uk/education/main#Corbyn |
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#67 |
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Join Date: Apr 2016
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"work alongside" means "infiltrate" in Tom Watson's lexicon?
The man sounds a bit mad. |
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#68 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 97,109
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Quote:
1. Organising within Momentum branches to influence local Labour parties
Trotskyist Workers' Power group organising within Momentum branches The Trotskyist group Workers' Power, previously the UK branch of the League for the Fifth International, decided to enter into the Labour Party in September 2015 under the new name Red Flag. It is encouraging organising within Momentum branches and CLPs — urging supporters to pass a model motion against the PLP. htt : www.redfla online.or 2016 06 model-motion-or anise-to-defeat-the-rebels Labour Party Marxists push for mandatory reselection through Momentum Labour Party Marxists is a project by the Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee), a Trotskyist party, to enter into the Labour Party. Encouraging supporters to pass a model motion at Momentum branches calling for mandatory reselection of local MPs http://labourpartvmarxists.org.uk/wp...loads/lpm0010a 160707.pdf Alliance for Workers' Liberty planning 'influx into Momentum groups' to take over CLPs The Alliance for Workers' Liberty is the new name of Socialist Organiser, a Trotskyist entryist party proscribed by the Labour Party since 1990. It was registered with the Electoral Commission as a political party until late summer 2015 when it decided to take up entryism into Labour again. 'We must use the new upsurge around and influx into Momentum groups to put our organisation on a strongerfooting — above all by organising CLP and ward-level caucuses, fighting in the Labour Party ward by ward, and building local Young Labour groups, so we can run forward once Corbyn is re-elected". 'That is what Workers' Liberty is doing, in Momentum groups and committees, in Labour Parties, in trade unions, in the youth and student movements and on the streets" http://www.workersliberty.org/node/26898 "Join Momentum and get involved with it's campaigning. Set up constituency left caucuses and discuss the politics on which to fight for a Corbyn vote: free movement of labour; rebuild the NHS; fight the cuts and a new, renewed right-wing Tory government. " http://www.workersliberty.org/node/26830 2. Pro-Corbyn rallies and unofficial party meetings are being organised with hard-left Socialist Party organising pro-Corbyn rallies with local Momentum branches The Socialist Party is the new name of Militant /Revolutionary Socialist League, a Trotskyist entryist party proscribed by the Labour Party since the 1980s. It stands candidates against Labour as part of TUSC (Trade Union and Socialist Coalition) alongside the SWP. YORK: "Socialist Party member lain Dalton was also able to address the rally, unlike recent ones in nearby Leeds (*see footnote). *Footnote: This sentence was amended online on 15.7.16 to remove an inaccurate reference to Socialist Party members not being able to address previous Momentum meetings in York; the participation of Socialist Party members has in fact been welcomed in York Momentum. ' http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/kevword/Left and radical/Momentum/23205/13-072016/thousands-mobilising-to-keepcorbyn LEEDS: "Around 250 people gathered at short notice to demonstrate their support for Jeremy Corbyn in Leeds. The demonstration was called by Momentum after discussion with the Socialist Party and others from trade unions and campaigning groups around Leeds. " http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/keyword/Left and radical/Momentum/23178/06-072016/keep-corbyn-demonstrations-in-leeds Socialist Party: organise meetings to 'defy' Labour's NEC "Local parties should defy these edicts and continue meeting, or #Keep Corbyn meetings should be organised independently, including by trade union branches - and involving Corbyn supporters inside and outside the Labour Party. ' http://www.socialistpartv.org.uk/art...bourright-wing 3. Entryism into Labour via the unions Unite's mandatory reselection policy was moved by a Socialist Party member "Conference later heard speeches from Corbyn and McDonnell. Socialist Party member and Unite LE1228 branch secretary Kevin Parslow then moved the re-selection motion" http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/art...-of-labour-mps Labour Partv Marxists organise to infiltrate via affiliated supporters scheme and 'purge the right' 'within the affiliated trade unions we must fight to win many, many more to enrol...every constituency, branch (ward) and other such basic units must be seized, revived and galvanised by the left...Purge the right and transform the Labour Party' http://labourpartvmarxists.org.uk/defend-corbyn 4. Far-left volunteers staffing Corbyn campaign Socialist Resistance urges members to join Corbyn's campaign as volunteers 'Every single voter needs to be spoken to. This means volunteering the staff the phone banks that were such an important part of the original Corbyn election victory last year. It means going door to door. This is big work. ' http://socialistresistance.org/8601/a Il-hands-on-deck-to-help-ieremy-corbyn-win Momentum campaign sessions for Corbyno open to anyone outside party 'The meeting/session is open to members of Momentum, volunteers and supporters of Jeremy Corbyn" http://momentumbedford.uk/events/20/...ieremv-corbyn/ Evidence of expelled Labour member running phonebanks for Corbyn Jill Mountford (expelled from party in Feb 2016 as she is a leading member of proscribed party AWL): https://twitter.com/iillm1871/status/756603236061179908 Jill Mountford F0110'" Created logins for 60 Lewisham @PeoplesMomentum supporters to do phone bank work for JC whenever & wherever fitting around work & kids etc I've created the thick end of 60 logins tor Lewisham Momentum supporters to do phone bank work for JCs leadership campaign locally People are doing phoning from wherever and whenever is convenient. fitting it around work and kids and are generalty getting good results and feel really quite buoyant about it. I'm sure this is being replicated around the country a thousandtold„ a very efficient teanm Tomorrow we have stalls in different parts of the borough, getting people to sign the Support JC petition, leafleting, asking people to join the LP etc Share 5. SWP sets up training course to infiltrate Labour The Socialist Workers' Party has produced a series of materials for members to 'work alongside Labour Party members and supporters'. The courses aim to help the SWP's 'task [which] is to be part of the movement in support of Jeremy Corbyn' and includes materials for members on the history of the Labour Party, Leninist strategies and tactics, and a pamphlet on how the revolutionary left can capitalise on Corbyn's position as leader. htto://www.swp.org.uk/education/main#Corbyn In a BBC Newsnight broadcast on 27 July 2015 Hatton claimed not to be a property developer, and that he was a card carrying member of the Labour Party. He supported the campaign of Jeremy Corbyn to lead the Labour Party However, the Labour Party denied this, insisting instead that Hatton had been sent a membership card automatically but had not been permitted to join. |
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#69 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,568
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Quote:
"work alongside" means "infiltrate" in Tom Watson's lexicon?
The man sounds a bit mad. |
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#70 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 278
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Quote:
"work alongside" means "infiltrate" in Tom Watson's lexicon?
The man sounds a bit mad. |
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#71 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Norwich
Posts: 7,788
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Quote:
"work alongside" means "infiltrate" in Tom Watson's lexicon?
The man sounds a bit mad. But he was not the first revolutionary leader to advocate the tactic - the Labour Party has been expelling hard-left entryists almost since it was founded, more than a century ago." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37025649 |
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#72 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,933
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Quote:
"work alongside" means "infiltrate" in Tom Watson's lexicon?
The man sounds a bit mad. |
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#73 |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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He is the sanest person still in the Shadow Cabinet. More power to him.
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#74 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,761
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You are ignoring what is happening behind the scenes, the Momentum crew taking over the NEC and now moving on to get rid if McNichol, followed by mass de-selections. Rhea Wolfson has said just today that the party should not be keeping out other left wing party members. That is why the PLP had to act quickly, you cannot stand by and see the party infiltrated, with the blessing or wilful ignorance of The Leader.
And why should not 'left wing' people join the Labour party? Perhaps the vast majority of people joining do not wish to be members or supporters of the Socialist movement or Communist party and have found a place with Labour under Corbyn. Like me. ![]() But i'm doing a stoatie and going off topic.
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#75 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,199
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You may be right but I suspect the enemies were already in action behind the scenes, the deselection threat and the takeover if the NEC have been planned since day 1 of Cirbyns leadership, I suspect.
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