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Old 05-10-2016, 16:07
Nihonga
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The episode has aired and this is US pace so it's not a spoiler....

that being said there are obviously still some changes in place so Barry hasn't fixed things yet so I'd say flashpoint is still going on..the arc is not a single episode!
That makes sense. The consequences/effect of flashpoint (whatever they are) don't seem to have concluded because, for example, of what's going on with Iris - i.e. what happened to make Iris to no longer speak to her dad?
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Old 05-10-2016, 16:10
koantemplation
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I think this show needs grounding in one reality. It has had way too many alternative realities to care who is who at the moment.

There's only so many Flashes you can care about.
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Old 05-10-2016, 16:16
Schmiznurf
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That makes sense. The consequences/effect of flashpoint (whatever they are) don't seem to have concluded because, for example, of what's going on with Iris - i.e. what happened to make Iris to no longer speak to her dad?
They won't conclude either, the consequences are permanent.
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Old 05-10-2016, 16:22
ShotDownInFlame
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Just caught up with the episode.

It was good fun to be honest, nothing mindblowing by any means though.

- At one point Pimp Cisco mentioned that he didn't want to die via vibrating hand to the ribcage, is it possible he was secretly Vibe in this timeline too and had seen what had happened to OG Cisco?

- I wonder how many times in the show we're going to see Nora Allen die.

- I felt like it was a bit pathetic that Barry regained all his lost memories simply because Iris reminded him he is The Flash...

- Why did Joe go from terrible cop, to saving Barry's life with next to no motivation?

- Reverse Flash seems to have saved himself on the way back to the OG timeline, because now he's no longer stuck in the past. Which means.... we NOW have: 1 Reverse Flash, 1 Earth 1 Harrison Wells (now NOT dead) *and* 1 Earth 2 Harrison Wells. 2 Tom Cavanagh's this season?!
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Old 05-10-2016, 17:05
Nihonga
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I think this show needs grounding in one reality. It has had way too many alternative realities to care who is who at the moment.

There's only so many Flashes you can care about.
Like, who the hell gives a hoot for Kid Flash?! Honestly, if you can't think of a better name, don't expect me to care if you get punched to the moon and back, lol!

They won't conclude either, the consequences are permanent.
Oh, gawd, they are, aren't they? There are already timelines relating to season 1 that were altered in season 2 - e.g. Hartley's. What's the consequence of that? Or does it not matter? And do the writers care or have forgotten? And then there's Jay and Zoom's timeline in Earth 2. Like Koantemplation says, there are too many alternative realities that keep propping out, you will need a whiteboard just to keep up.
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Old 05-10-2016, 17:14
Nihonga
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Just caught up with the episode.

It was good fun to be honest, nothing mindblowing by any means though.

- At one point Pimp Cisco mentioned that he didn't want to die via vibrating hand to the ribcage, is it possible he was secretly Vibe in this timeline too and had seen what had happened to OG Cisco?

- I wonder how many times in the show we're going to see Nora Allen die.

- I felt like it was a bit pathetic that Barry regained all his lost memories simply because Iris reminded him he is The Flash...

- Why did Joe go from terrible cop, to saving Barry's life with next to no motivation?

- Reverse Flash seems to have saved himself on the way back to the OG timeline, because now he's no longer stuck in the past. Which means.... we NOW have: 1 Reverse Flash, 1 Earth 1 Harrison Wells (now NOT dead) *and* 1 Earth 2 Harrison Wells. 2 Tom Cavanagh's this season?!
There you go! You see! It's all so bloody confusing!!!! (lolz like a person going mad). Oh, and you forgot - if it was HW that was killed in season 1, but Eobard's back, what happened to the real HW? Is he alive or dead? Or does not matter anymore? And we already have Dead Jazz Singer Joe and Lousy Cop Joe. Except Dead Jazz Singer Joe was in Earth 2 - so it probably doesn't matter what happens to him, and he is dead anyway.

Do all these characters go to Doppleganger Heaven/Hell when they all finally die, I wonder?
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Old 05-10-2016, 19:58
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Great episode to start a new season with. Thawne always steals the scenes that he's in. Really enjoyed it.
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Old 05-10-2016, 20:24
zwixxx
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I don't think the show sold it very well why Barry decided he HAD to go back and let thingie kill his mom again. Sure Kid Flash was not healing as fast as usual but was he actually dead ? Even still, did he love Kid Flash more than his mom. If he was having a bad time, feeling guilty 'n all, couldn't he simply off himself and let his mom live with his pa in happiness instead of one dead and the other imprisoned for years.

Or was it just down to him having a few headaches ? Sheesh, buck up man and take some paracetomol, darn it.
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Old 05-10-2016, 20:35
koantemplation
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I don't think the show sold it very well why Barry decided he HAD to go back and let thingie kill his mom again. Sure Kid Flash was not healing as fast as usual but was he actually dead ? Even still, did he love Kid Flash more than his mom. If he was having a bad time, feeling guilty 'n all, couldn't he simply off himself and let his mom live with his pa in happiness instead of one dead and the other imprisoned for years.

Or was it just down to him having a few headaches ? Sheesh, buck up man and take some paracetomol, darn it.
I thought it was the loss of his memories of his original timeline that drove him to change things, as well as what was happing to Kid Flash?
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Old 05-10-2016, 20:47
Nihonga
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I thought it was the loss of his memories of his original timeline that drove him to change things, as well as what was happing to Kid Flash?
That as well as the fact that he was losing his speed everytime he used in that reality. He also came to realise that his happiness (having his parents back) was all being achieved on the backs of the Wests' unhappiness - Joe and his broken relationship with his kids, and Kid Flash (Wally) being hurt. Eventually he would no longer be The Flash and once his original timeline memories were lost, he will be left in a reality that had his parents but the Wests won't be the Wests of old.
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Old 05-10-2016, 21:44
zwixxx
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So he chose to kill his mom rather than arrange for some family councelling for the Joe and his offspring, hmmmm, I guess that felt like the best plan at the time.
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Old 05-10-2016, 21:55
Corwin
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Yeah they probably should have made the Flashpoint timeline more out of whack than they did.

Obviously I'm not talking about what happens in the comic/cartoon scale but they could have destroyed a big chunk of Central City or something


Interesting to see what other changes are still in place going forward.

For example without Thawne killing and impersonating Wells did the Particle Accelerator explosion happen in the exact same way?
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Old 05-10-2016, 22:30
Andrew_Ballard
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Absolutely f**king dire, sorry.

Earth 2 this, alternate timeline that, utterly kills any shits I could give when I just know it will all resolve to the next plot point at the end. Barry went from all "Victory!" to "please kill my mother" in one episode, utterly lazy.

Not a good start.
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Old 05-10-2016, 23:29
Motthus
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But it wasn't resolved as even when the timeline was sorted you saw at the end with Joe reaction when Barry mentioned Iris to him that things are different in this timeline to the one he left to stop Reverse Flash killing his mum in the season 2 finale

By the way I must have missed the part when Barry said 'victory' as when did that happen?
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Old 06-10-2016, 07:18
Flash525
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Time to pick this show apart, oh what joy.....

So Eobard can go back in time, change the timeline (kill Nora), then (presumably) go back to his future with no consequences? Barry goes back in time, saves Nora, goes back to his future/present, and all hell has broken loose? I assume that the future Eobard is from changes (from his perspective) once he arrives back there? If a speedster alters the past then returns to (their) present, time changes for them.

That's the only way we're going to get Nora back; if Eobard realizes that by him changing his past, it makes his future worse, so he decides not to kill Nora, but that's a fundamental part of Flash history right there. [insert headache]

Also, is Barry still going to be a Speedster? If Eobard doesn't lose his speed, he's no reason to kill Earth 1 Harry, if he doesn't kill (and replace) Earth 1 Harry, then he doesn't jumpstart the particle accelerator, and Barry doesn't get his speed (it's mentioned in a previous episode - by Thawne that Barry doesn't get his speed (initially) until he's older). Therefore, how is Barry the Flash now? Furthermore, if Eobard is no longer on the scene, then Eddie is...? [headache two]

And must we really have the whole Barry/Iris drama again? We've had two seasons already of Barry trying to win her affections, and now we get to watch it all over again. Speaking of the West family; how did Joe and Wally get so pally without Iris? [headache three]

No exactly the return I was hoping for, too much didn't make sense (as much sense as you can make from a fictional show), but there's zero credibility here, kind of a mess (still).

The episode has aired and this is US pace so it's not a spoiler.
I was a day behind, thought Schmiznurf had watched a leaked release or something..

Spoilers refer to things coming up in future programmes not once the programme has aired. They're not the rules, it's my thread, spoilers relate to anything not yet aired, not things which happened in the episode itself once it's gone out at US Pace.
Different threads have different rules. It's sometimes difficult to keep up sometimes.

Come on man, if you're being serious you know how it works by now.
As stated above, I was behind a day. Still, I wasn't being overly serious as I knew (through previews) that Flashpoint wasn't going to last the whole show anyway.

Flashpoint is the actual event of going back in time to save his mum and ends when he reverses the decision and lets her die. The actual flashpoint event is thus over, the ramifications are not considered part of the event but a consequence of it.
I think this show needs grounding in one reality. It has had way too many alternative realities to care who is who at the moment.
Unfortunately, time travel is a fundamental part to this show, and will likely continue to be so in some fashion.

At one point Pimp Cisco mentioned that he didn't want to die via vibrating hand to the ribcage, is it possible he was secretly Vibe in this timeline too and had seen what had happened to OG Cisco?
If these versions of the characters have any connection to their true representations, then it's likely he'd have had a vision or nightmare (etc) about it.

I wonder how many times in the show we're going to see Nora Allen die.
One would hope that's the last we've seen now, cause Barry seemingly can't save her without erasing himself from the picture.

Reverse Flash seems to have saved himself on the way back to the OG timeline, because now he's no longer stuck in the past. Which means.... we NOW have: 1 Reverse Flash, 1 Earth 1 Harrison Wells (now NOT dead) *and* 1 Earth 2 Harrison Wells. 2 Tom Cavanagh's this season?!
One would assume yes to all of the above. We know Jay Garrick is back this season (as the Flash from Earth 3 or wherever) so we know they're still going to be jumping through to different Earth's at some point, so it's more or less confirmed that Earth 2 Wells and Jessie will make an appearance at some point, and yeah, I guess Thawne never kills Earth 1 Wells, so that character (likely) will have been a member of Team Flash from the get-go.
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:05
zwixxx
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Absolutely f**king dire, sorry.

Earth 2 this, alternate timeline that, utterly kills any shits I could give when I just know it will all resolve to the next plot point at the end. Barry went from all "Victory!" to "please kill my mother" in one episode, utterly lazy.

Not a good start.
timelinewise (iiuc) it was
(1) saves mom
(2) returns to future, hugs mom
(3) 3 months of everything being hunky dory
(4) then in one day he gets a headache, asks out thingie, gets another headache, meets kid flash, kid flash gets scratched, gets another headache, gives up, kills mom

Feels like Barry sooooooooo wanted to remain the Flash that he sacrificed his family to get it back - maybe I should rewatch the ep to make sure I'm reading this right.
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:15
Flash525
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Feels like Barry sooooooooo wanted to remain the Flash that he sacrificed his family to get it back - maybe I should rewatch the ep to make sure I'm reading this right.
I'll save you the bother; that's exactly how it happens.

I suppose (if you were going to look at it optimistically) Barry figured that in this new timeline, because he'd ****ed up and was going to lose himself, more people he cared about were going to die, and that he'd be able to do more as the Flash in the true timeline, than he could in this one?

Either way, the implementation of the whole episode was, as already stated by Andrew, was dire. They should have had so much potential going into this, but knowing how poor some of the Season 2 writing was, and the fact that this was the introduction to Season 3, I'm cautiously optimistic about the rest of the season.

Do the producers even bother reading the scripts? Mentioned to Karis earlier, but I do wonder whether (now with four interconnected shows) the top guys are trying to do too much here. For the most part, they've got a talented bunch of cast across all four shows, but the writing leaves a lot to be desired.
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:33
Karis
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They should have had so much potential going into this, but knowing how poor some of the Season 2 writing was, and the fact that this was the introduction to Season 3, I'm cautiously optimistic about the rest of the season.

Do the producers even bother reading the scripts? Mentioned to Karis earlier, but I do wonder whether (now with four interconnected shows) the top guys are trying to do too much here. For the most part, they've got a talented bunch of cast across all four shows, but the writing leaves a lot to be desired.
You're more so than I am. With so many awesome shows on telly, I'm not sure whether to drop this this year. It'll have to do a lot better and be more like S1.

I never watched more than a few episodes of Arrow (way too dour for me).

So I've got Supergirl - yay - and a slew of other shows.

The Flash writers really need to pull their socks up!
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:39
zwixxx
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^thanx for saving me the rewatch time. - maybe my fan edit of the ep will be
(1) barry saves mom and returns to the future
(2) snip all the flashpoint timeline stuff, replace with a simple "BAD SHIT HAPPENED" jpeg
(3) barry goes back to unsave mom and returns to the future to find it a little screwy. QED

As to the future of these shows, maybe the wowness of seeing Supergirl turn up in the other 3 series will help disguise / help us overlook any mehness with the writing.

If only there was a Billionaire Batman fan out there who could stump up the £$£ required for them to bring a Batman CW show into the mix. (goes off to see if I won the £110mill euro lottery, that'd be enough, right ?!)
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Old 06-10-2016, 10:13
Flash525
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I never watched more than a few episodes of Arrow (way too dour for me).
Arrow isn't for everyone due to it's darker tone, but it's had a good run, and some of the one liners have been nothing short of brilliance.

Do you watch Legends?

If only there was a Billionaire Batman fan out there who could stump up the £$£ required for them to bring a Batman CW show into the mix. (goes off to see if I won the £110mill euro lottery, that'd be enough, right ?!)
I thought it was 121million tonight? Still, would you really want any of the current writers screwing up a Batman CW show?

Have you tried Gotham? Granted it's lacking the Batman, but it's well made. I binged Season 1 last week, and am quite enjoying it.
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Old 06-10-2016, 11:07
zwixxx
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^I watch Gotham but don't keep it and would never rewatch it. And what they've done with Ivy has the potential of being v.icky.
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Old 06-10-2016, 13:01
ShotDownInFlame
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I have to admit that I do worry the writers for Flash are starting to have a fall from grace similar to the Arrow writers, hopefully this season will pick up though once things get going. Early days of course.

But to be fair, that WAS a huge lost potential with the Flashpoint storyline, which realistically could *easily* have taken up a whole season. I'm sort of glad it didn't though with the way they clumsily shoehorned it in at the end of Season 2, but if it had the right set up and the right execution it could have been AMAZING.

Hopefully this season won't just be a case of the actors doing the best they can with some questionable writing, kind of like what a fair amount of Season 2 was.
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Old 08-10-2016, 01:55
NinjyBear
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Looks like season 2's poor writing and general stupidity is carrying over to season 3. To me, the gist of this episode is that Barry loves his powers more than he loves his parents.

Not for the first time, they've made Barry look like an absolute prick.
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Old 08-10-2016, 11:47
Schmiznurf
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Looks like season 2's poor writing and general stupidity is carrying over to season 3. To me, the gist of this episode is that Barry loves his powers more than he loves his parents.

Not for the first time, they've made Barry look like an absolute prick.
The whole thing wasn't even about his powers, it was about the memories of the people he loves vanishing from his mind and accepting that he wouldn't be who he is without them and Wally potentially dying and seeing the people he loves in pain is worse to him than accepting his life as it was meant to be.
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Old 08-10-2016, 18:38
Lyceum
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Looks like season 2's poor writing and general stupidity is carrying over to season 3. To me, the gist of this episode is that Barry loves his powers more than he loves his parents.

Not for the first time, they've made Barry look like an absolute prick.
I absolutely agree.

Series one and two we got Barry's never ending crying over his mother dying and his father being in prison. Then he father dying.

So he changes that. Then decided actually he likes being the flash and having his old friends as 'family' more than he actually wants his parents around.

Now I get that he realises he would lose the person he was if he didn't get reverse flash to fix things but surely after years and years of wishing he had that life and then going to such massive lengths to achieve it he should have stuck with it, plus once he forgot he would t have known about the old life anyway. So it made no sense for him to give up all he's ever wanted for a life he would soon have had zero memory off.

How many times has Barry changed the timeline now? It seems like he can't deal with any of the timelines he finds himself in.
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