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Some labor party members want basic income introduced


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Old 03-09-2016, 14:57
Morlock
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Terrible idea. Its a complete disincentive to work and anti everything that a decent society should be about. Why should people who choose to work hard and contribute pay for those who would be able to make a lifestyle decision not. It's a massive attack on working people.
Except that with it being a 'Universal Income', working people would receive the same amount.
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Old 03-09-2016, 14:59
Morlock
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Well of course some Labour voters want free money for doing nothing. The problem is it just encourages the idle to be idle, the stupid to avoid eductation...
......
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Old 03-09-2016, 15:30
LostFool
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Except that with it being a 'Universal Income', working people would receive the same amount.
How much tax would I have to pay in order to get this £5000 (or whatever) per year?

Have you thought that if there was a basic income them employers could just reduce pay by an equivalent amount.
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Old 03-09-2016, 17:18
GreatGodPan
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Well of course some Labour voters want free money for doing nothing. The problem is it just encourages the idle to be idle, the stupid to avoid eductation, the people living in the wrong places to stay there, and the better qualified to want to maintain their differentials, or go somewhere else if they are told to pay for it. Either there's more money printed to pay for it, and its eaten by inflation, or no one gets a meaningful sum, or the successful bits of the economy end up supporting the unsuccessful even more.
What an offensive, ignorant statement.
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Old 03-09-2016, 19:30
Meepers
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What an offensive, ignorant statement.
Bit rich that coming from you.
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Old 03-09-2016, 19:35
UIR
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Encourages work? The point of life isn't to bloody work. My generation potentially has to work until we are 75. Imagine that. Knocking your pan in for the guts of 50 years straight all working. You finally get set free at 75 only to realise you can enjoy the freedom from your wheelchair while you suffer your crippled joints, cancer, diabetes and god knows what else.

Anything that gets people out of the shackles of work is a good thing in my book.
You will find that it is integral. We are a social species and social species tend to have roles within their communities. All we have done is expand upon that as our communities consist of millions.

Human kind has always worked, ever since the earliest days of our existence in our most ancient form.
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Old 03-09-2016, 19:36
UIR
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A basic income will be instituted within the next few decades, simply because it solves modern capitalism’s most fundamental problem. ie. lack of demand.
Price reductions and wage increases also do that.
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Old 03-09-2016, 19:42
UIR
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The only people living on £400 per month plus rent paid are those who are too sick or disabled to work.
JSA with sanctions comes to around or under £400.

Quite a few claimants have sanctions on their claim and a reduced amount.

Sick and disabled people get quite a bit more to be fair, if they claim correctly. ESA £440 and up to £550 PIP I think. Though many dont claim one or the other as they dont know they can.
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Old 03-09-2016, 19:43
UIR
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What an offensive, ignorant statement.
That offended you? You must be a snowflake.
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Old 03-09-2016, 19:44
KJ_Red
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Price reductions and wage increases also do that.
Stagnant wages tell us that the supply of labour exceeds demand. Microscopic interest rates tell us that we have more capital than we need.

Open your eyes.
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Old 03-09-2016, 19:49
Meepers
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That offended you? You must be a snowflake.
No, but stuff like GGP demanding to know poster's religion with no reason given when challenged does though.
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Old 03-09-2016, 19:51
swb1964
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JSA with sanctions comes to around or under £400.

.
Really? Full JSA works out at £316 a month (£73.10 a week)

Sanctioned JSA comes to 60% of that, IF you can jump through the hoops for a hardship payment. You get nothing at all for the first 2 weeks of your sanction either.
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Old 03-09-2016, 19:53
KJ_Red
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That offended you? You must be a snowflake.
I see you didn't dispute the accusation of ignorance.

Reading some of your remarks on this thread though, that's understandable.
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Old 03-09-2016, 20:04
UIR
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I see you didn't dispute the accusation of ignorance.

Reading some of your remarks on this thread though, that's understandable.
Ignorance? It was an entirely accurate description of the current labour voter.

I'll assume you fit the bill.
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Old 03-09-2016, 20:05
UIR
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Really? Full JSA works out at £316 a month (£73.10 a week)

Sanctioned JSA comes to 60% of that, IF you can jump through the hoops for a hardship payment. You get nothing at all for the first 2 weeks of your sanction either.
You are right. No idea why I thought it was in line with ESA payments.
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Old 03-09-2016, 20:18
KJ_Red
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Ignorance? It was an entirely accurate description of the current labour voter.

I'll assume you fit the bill.
Good to see you're not letting your education get in the way of your ignorance.
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Old 02-01-2017, 21:25
PunksNotDead
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A radical scheme to give every citizen a universal basic income (UBI), regardless of whether or not they work, is set to be piloted by two Scottish councils this year.

Labour-run Glasgow and Fife councils are designing trial schemes following meetings held late last year.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7505411.html
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Old 02-01-2017, 21:34
MARTYM8
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How on earth can that just be operated in single local authorities - won't people just move there to get the free handouts? Will this be paid on top of other benefits?

It doesn't really seem to be a basic income for all but some sort of consolidated payment including state pensions and JSA?

Have the SNP and Tory governments approved these schemes from these Labour councils - surely they cannot subsume national benefits locally beyond determining council tax and HB which are locally assessed?
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Old 02-01-2017, 21:36
RRL
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How on earth can that just be operated in single local authorities - won't people just move there to get the free handouts. Will this be paid on top of national benefits and tax credits?
Apparently not.

According to that link


Under UBI, welfare benefits such as Jobseekers’ Allowance, working tax credits and state pensions are replaced by a single, unconditional flat-rate payment, regardless of whether the recipient is in work. Any money earned above this is subject to taxation.


If that were to be true I can see some people being worse off not better off

The trouble with all these touted schemes is that the devil is in the detail and sadly the detail is one thing we are not told!
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Old 02-01-2017, 21:39
thenetworkbabe
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It appears to be increasing corporation tax, restoring the 50p income tax rate, scrapping Trident and new wealth taxes. The trouble is it appears to be being spent multiple times and the cost of this particular policy is, to say the least, a whopper.
and in a post brexit situation having higher corporate taxes than the US will have under Trump, or increasing the gap with states like Ireland, already on lower rates - like 13% - would be catastrophic. As would Corbyn's support for the militant unions demanding higher wages.

Corbyn exists in a time capsule of some idealised communist paradise in the sixties - everything since - the winter of discontent, globalisation, global markets, deindustrialisation, the rise of the developing economies, growth of the service sector, the 2007 crash , and now brexit, just hasn't registered on his dream world.

.
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Old 02-01-2017, 21:55
thenetworkbabe
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Apparently not.

According to that link


Under UBI, welfare benefits such as Jobseekers’ Allowance, working tax credits and state pensions are replaced by a single, unconditional flat-rate payment, regardless of whether the recipient is in work. Any money earned above this is subject to taxation.


If that were to be true I can see some people being worse off not better off

The trouble with all these touted schemes is that the devil is in the detail and sadly the detail is one thing we are not told!
The detail is obviously kaput in this case. Even if you trade in the basic rate tax allowance you only have 2200 available in extra tax on those working to give back to them. If you want to give everyone 5 k plus a year you would have to tax the difference extra on those working, or hammer business in tax.. Hammering business in current circumstances, just means jobs vanishing overseas Your people justifiably on benfits, though, would lose out on 5 k a year - unless you gave them over the norm - you would have to adjust to needs.

Meanwhile, anyone who didn't fancy doing anything could just opt out , laugh ta those working, stay at home and develop problems for the NHS to solve,. Tax payers would'n't stand for paying for other people's right to be bone idle,

Its typical Corbyn. grab any money from anyone remotely successful . Its a recipe for killing Labour though - the ultimate version of the the scroungers charter - with most of the population losing money , or their jobs, to finance it.
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Old 02-01-2017, 21:59
thenetworkbabe
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Except that with it being a 'Universal Income', working people would receive the same amount.
who do you think is going to be paying for the universal income? If the people at the bottom of the income scale get more, for doing less, it follows automatically that those those higher up the income scale must be getting less after tax.
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Old 02-01-2017, 22:28
Annsyre
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7219726.html

Sense is prevailing. Some hope for humanity shines in the distance.
Economic sense isn't. Where is the monney come from?
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Old 02-01-2017, 23:28
blueisthecolour
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Well it will be interesting to see how this works out anyway - I often think that we are too afraid to just try things and see what happens.

I reckon a basic income could go one of two ways - either it's a way of redistributing the increased wealth that will come from increase automation in the economy or it will be the foundation of a new form of slavery where people get their basic needs met but nothing else.
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Old 02-01-2017, 23:37
Alrightmate
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A terrible idea.

Can those who think otherwise explain the incentive to actually work if a basic income is introduced? Because for many, there wont be one.

Also, who will be paying for it, and how? Take your time and think this one through, because its a dreadful idea.

Theres a reason the Swiss laughed at it.
Because the incentive to work may not be money in itself for many if not most people.

I understand that may be difficult for some to comprehend, but there are studies around which support this theory.

Of course if you get no money at all whatsoever then money would be the number one primary incentive to work. Because your number one priority is to not starve to death.
But if a basic income is covered where you don't have to worry about the basics, do you think most people wouldn't want to do anything with their life?

Many people who have been on benefits don't want to be on benefits. It's not just about money.

How would this work in the UK? I don't know. I think it would be important to research the basic psychology of people and find out what they are likely to do if they knew that they had a guaranteed basic income.
There is obviously an element of risk involved as I don't think anyone can be absolutely sure how well this would work. The infrastructure needs to be in place and we need to have a thorough understanding of the economics and what truly motivates people.
We may not be ready. I suspect that some countries will be.

You ask people to think about it, but there are many variables to consider. You have to look at how people's spending power will change, which may provide a boost to the economy as more capital is freely circulating, which may or may not be temporary. Maybe this provides the potential for more small businesses to get up and running as more money is freed?
Maybe it helps more people cross that bridge between benefits and employment? Maybe it helps provide a safety net for more people to take risks when setting up their own businesses?

I think that there is the problem that many people truly believe that most people don't want to work at all and would avoid it if they can. They may be true, but I'm not convinced and am skeptical about that. As it is just a theory.
But it depends on what people are actually like by nature and what would happen if you put the ball in their court, if you give them the chance.
Maybe it is too much of a sudden change in society and we need to get there gradually? Maybe people just do not have enough time to adjust their mindset and maybe too many people really are too maladjusted and abuse this system?
Because there is a responsibility which needs to be taken by everyone. If too many people think it's an opportunity to just take and not give back then it will fail.
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