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Tottenham Hotspur Supporters Thread (Part 13) |
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#1026 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Herts
Posts: 17,003
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On hindsight last season flattered us. We rode the same crest of the wave as Leicester with the usual top teams under performing. Poch had fully implemented his super fitness and high pressing game which caught a lot of teams by surprise with our tempo. But we couldn't keep it up all season.
This season other teams have the antidote to counteract our game and it has shown up our midfield for lack of guile in getting behind defences and creating genuine goal scoring opportunities. Injuries, squad rotation and a couple of experimental formations hasn't helped but even with our best 11, I don't think we would be any more creative in the final third. ....And the bottom line is that our attacking midfielders are simply just not good enough for an aspiring top team. |
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#1027 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
Posts: 51,265
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Of course we over achieved last season. No one expected us to get into the top four, never mind have the season we did.
So far this season has not been so different. Lacklustre in the cups, and unbeaten in the league, but with too many draws. We had that great unbeaten run which ended around February, and we were fifth in the league. Familiar? With that sort of run, you'd expect to be 1st or 2nd. Once we lost, we then went on a great winning run, which put us in contention. Whether we can do that again, I'm not so sure. I think about 6th is where we would be if seeded, and maybe we should support the team on that basis, rather than have unrealistic expectations, and slag the team and manager off at every opportunity. If we make top four again, it will be a brilliant thing, but I wouldn't bet on it. The main thing that disappoints me is the cup strategy though. I'd love us to win something, and a cup is our only realistic hope. Time we won the FA Cup again. |
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#1028 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Herts
Posts: 17,003
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Quote:
...The main thing that disappoints me is the cup strategy though. I'd love us to win something, and a cup is our only realistic hope. Time we won the FA Cup again.
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#1029 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
Posts: 51,265
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Quote:
Its a real shame that the FA Cup is increasingly being viewed with the same contempt as the League Cup.
We also used to be regular finalists. That competition is a huge part of our history, and I hope we have a proper go at it this season, but I fear the worst. |
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#1030 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,213
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Quote:
Of course we over achieved last season. No one expected us to get into the top four, never mind have the season we did.
So far this season has not been so different. Lacklustre in the cups, and unbeaten in the league, but with too many draws. We had that great unbeaten run which ended around February, and we were fifth in the league. Familiar? With that sort of run, you'd expect to be 1st or 2nd. Once we lost, we then went on a great winning run, which put us in contention. Whether we can do that again, I'm not so sure. I think about 6th is where we would be if seeded, and maybe we should support the team on that basis, rather than have unrealistic expectations, and slag the team and manager off at every opportunity. If we make top four again, it will be a brilliant thing, but I wouldn't bet on it. The main thing that disappoints me is the cup strategy though. I'd love us to win something, and a cup is our only realistic hope. Time we won the FA Cup again. bib - this is a bit of a straw man, as no-one is complaining based on supposedly unrealistic expectations of challenging for the league or Top 4. we've had like 3 good performances all season, the majority of the team is not playing well, we don't create chances, we've scored from open play once in 9 matches, and we've got 4 points and failed to qualify from one of the easiest groups in this or any CL season. THAT'S what is being criticised, and it's not unrealistic to expect better. Pochettino says we lacked both the quality and mentality to go through, but whose responsibility is that? he has a habit now of deflecting criticism on to the team whenever his management is called into question, but ultimately the buck stops with him. he also said the following, which I find interesting Quote:
From the beginning of the season, I said our challenge was not physical, it was tactical - to manage your mind and to play on Saturday and then Tuesday or Wednesday.
but he left two of our most important and experienced players (Vertonghen and Walker) on the bench, presumably for Saturday, which sends a completely different message. besides, had we taken the Europa League seriously the two previous seasons, the players wouldn't now be needing to learn how to play weekend-midweek-weekend. plus, we might have had a chance to actually win something.
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#1031 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,902
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Quote:
I'm not saying you're wrong but I'm not convinced you are right. You keep saying that Poch is somehow "making the players worse" but as far as I can see you have never explained what it is he is doing.
I would suggest that there are a number of players that have improved since Poch joined, there have a been a few signings that have fitted in and "kicked on" but our problem is that we have had a number of players that haven't and even when they have been moved on, their replacements have not been materially better. I can't think of many players that have got worse with the exception of Erikksen but he was never very consistent and it's anybody's guess what is going on there now. Well of course you are right, Poch is just as vulnerable to the sack as any manager that underperforms. It will be interesting to see what happens if we don't qualify for the CL this season (which I don't think we will). My guess would be that Levy wouldn't be looking to rock the boat straight away and especially with the prospect of having to play our home games away from WHL I don't agree that we are a "laughing stock" to anybody whose opinion matters. I think that playing at Wembley, injuries, loss of form were all factors largely beyond anybody's control. However, the failure to strengthen our squad and some of Poch's team selection and tactics are things that can reasonably be questioned without "throwing the baby out with the bath water". Of course I accept their are various factors that can contribute to a players form, particularly with Kane who has been flogged to to death these last 2 years, but its the team as a "whole" that looks so poor so and often this season, slow, ponderous, devoid of ideas, no attacking threat, no flair etc. Whatever Poch is doing on the training ground, the players are not responding. Wether its his playing style, his tactics, his training programs, his coaching, whatever it is he doing with this squad they are not responding to the level that they should be. If he cant manage or motivate the team to be better then they currently are, that has to be down to the manager. |
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#1032 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,902
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Quote:
we didn't overachieve last season. others underachieved, points-wise we just performed to our average over the last 5 or so seasons. a regular (for us) season was made to look a lot better than it actually was. as a result, an illusion of massive improvement has been created, but I'm just not seeing it myself.
bib - this is a bit of a straw man, as no-one is complaining based on supposedly unrealistic expectations of challenging for the league or Top 4. we've had like 3 good performances all season, the majority of the team is not playing well, we don't create chances, we've scored from open play once in 9 matches, and we've got 4 points and failed to qualify from one of the easiest groups in this or any CL season. THAT'S what is being criticised, and it's not unrealistic to expect better. Pochettino says we lacked both the quality and mentality to go through, but whose responsibility is that? he has a habit now of deflecting criticism on to the team whenever his management is called into question, but ultimately the buck stops with him. he also said the following, which I find interesting but he left two of our most important and experienced players (Vertonghen and Walker) on the bench, presumably for Saturday, which sends a completely different message. besides, had we taken the Europa League seriously the two previous seasons, the players wouldn't now be needing to learn how to play weekend-midweek-weekend. plus, we might have had a chance to actually win something. People lauded over Poch's points tally, but as I mentioned before, to put it into real context, Roberto Martinez got MORE points with Everton two season earlier then Poch did last year. He did it A) in his very first season, B) with an inferior squad of players and C) in a much more competitive league that year. Surely that puts into context our achievement of last season. As you say, it was a season where we simple got our usual points tally. Less points then AVB's first season and just a single point more then the AVB/Sherwood debacle the following year. Just one solitary point more then those 2 !
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#1033 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,687
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Quote:
Unfortunately its not just Eriksen, who although always inconsistent as you say, now just looks plain awful every week. Look at Dier for example. I love the guy and had him down as a future captain for club and country, yet this season he looks like a non league player who has wandered into the stadium and been given a kit. He has been shocking. Kane looked poor at the end of last season, and at the start of this season before his injury. Lamela has regressed back to the anonymous nonenity he was before his (very) brief few decent games last season, Dele is a shadow of the player who burst onto the scene last year, Wimmer and Trippier look poor when they do get their chance to play, Janssen looks horrendous and I refuse to believe that he is actually as bad as what we are watching this season. Son had a couple of good games and we all got over excited as usual, and then he has completely disappeared these last 2 months.
Of course I accept their are various factors that can contribute to a players form, particularly with Kane who has been flogged to to death these last 2 years, but its the team as a "whole" that looks so poor so and often this season, slow, ponderous, devoid of ideas, no attacking threat, no flair etc. Whatever Poch is doing on the training ground, the players are not responding. Wether its his playing style, his tactics, his training programs, his coaching, whatever it is he doing with this squad they are not responding to the level that they should be. If he cant manage or motivate the team to be better then they currently are, that has to be down to the manager. Kane, Dier and Alli were all flogged to death last season and then suffered through the physical and mental of the torture Euros. All three have been injured this season and I am not convinced that Alli and Kane are properly fit yet. In any case, regarding Alli, it is not unheard of for new players to make a splash in their first season and then slip back a bit. Dier has shown that he isn't a replacement for Toby. They are all below par at the moment but I don't have any reason to believe that when they are fully fit and playing in their proper positions they won't be as good as ever and certainly wouldn't blame Poch for their lack of form. Son and Lamela are generally unsatisfactory players who have shown brief periods of improvement (under Poch) but neither for long enough to establish that they will ever be good enough. Wimmer is no better or worse than he has always been but, in my opinion, not good enough. Trippier hasn't played nearly enough to make any kind of judgement. You may refuse to believe that Janssen isn't better than he has shown so far. Hopefully you right but he won't be the first player to abjectly fail to adapt to the PL. For what it's worth I think he is mainly suffering from the lack of quality behind him. On the other hand, I would argue that Lloris, Walker, Rose, Toby, Dembele and possibly even Vertonghen have all improved under Poch. But I guess you won't agree. |
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#1034 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 839
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Oh dear. Anyone want to buy a ticket for the CKSA game?
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#1035 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Herts
Posts: 17,003
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Quote:
Oh dear. Anyone want to buy a ticket for the CKSA game?
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#1036 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Herts
Posts: 17,003
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As far as Poch improving players goes, for most players, all I can see is that the double training, super fitness approach has helped made them more competitive 1-2-1 and allowed them to keep going for longer in a game. I'm not really seeing any overall improvement in decision making and basic footballing skills. Quote:
...On the other hand, I would argue that Lloris, Walker, Rose, Toby, Dembele and possibly even Vertonghen have all improved under Poch. But I guess you won't agree.
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#1037 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,850
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Quote:
I got a buy CSKA game ticket prompt on my phone immediately after the Monaco game. The incentive to purchase though was totally gone after the final whistle and our poor performance.
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#1038 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Back in UK now.
Posts: 4,221
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Long post, sorry.
It's currently difficult to be anything other than critical of the players and Pochettino based on what we have seen so far this season. Our squad strengths and weaknesses have been highlighted as have our Manager's and Coaches. What irritates me more than anything is that nothing appears to be done or is being done to improve our strengths and remedy our weaknesses. The only noticeable difference is as already mentioned, the players are now a lot fitter than they were before Pochettino's arrival. I would absolutely love to be in on the meeting when Pochettino and his coaches do their post game analysis to see what they pick up on and what they plan to address. I have a feeling he is seeing different things to me and a lot of us as the weaknesses I come away thinking about are obviously not being addressed. For me these are our main weaknesses: Lloris - doesn't command his area enough. I thought he is a sweeper keeper but he stays on his line far too much. Some of the soft goals we give away could be avoided if he took charge of the situation and came off his line to punch or claim the ball. Walker - improved concentration but still lacks intelligence going forward, lacks the nous to know when to cross early and when to go for the byline. His crossing anyway is still inept and lacks the skill to pick out a specific player in the middle. How many more seasons before he begins to hit a decent cross? Rose - as above Midfield - Dembele back to holding on to the ball too much and then losing possession. Eriksen doesn't risk enough going forward, fades in/out of games, still can't hit a decent corner and his free kicks have gone to pot. Wanyama great at breaking up play but clumsy and gives away too many free kicks. He can also get drawn out of position by clever opponents. Lamela - FGS teach him how to tackle without going to ground and to use his right foot! Sissoko - sell him at the first opportunity! Kane - needs to get back to shooting for the corners of the goal and not straight at the keeper. Janssen - give the poor guy some decent service and he'll get a few goals. At the moment he's trying to be creator and goalscorer. He's a target man and poacher and needs to be on the end of things not at the start of things! Often watching the games back I will pause at certain points to try to work out why a player played a certain pass and not the one I think he should have played. In most cases it is that the player chose the easier option, possibly fearful of giving the ball away or simply, in certain players cases, they simply didn't have the vision to see the other pass. In conclusion, I guess I don't understand why our players are not coached these fundamentals and if they are being, what does that tell us about these players as I/we keep seeing the same weaknesses time and time again. |
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#1039 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,213
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Quote:
Long post, sorry.
It's currently difficult to be anything other than critical of the players and Pochettino based on what we have seen so far this season. Our squad strengths and weaknesses have been highlighted as have our Manager's and Coaches. What irritates me more than anything is that nothing appears to be done or is being done to improve our strengths and remedy our weaknesses. The only noticeable difference is as already mentioned, the players are now a lot fitter than they were before Pochettino's arrival. I would absolutely love to be in on the meeting when Pochettino and his coaches do their post game analysis to see what they pick up on and what they plan to address. I have a feeling he is seeing different things to me and a lot of us as the weaknesses I come away thinking about are obviously not being addressed. For me these are our main weaknesses: Lloris - doesn't command his area enough. I thought he is a sweeper keeper but he stays on his line far too much. Some of the soft goals we give away could be avoided if he took charge of the situation and came off his line to punch or claim the ball. Walker - improved concentration but still lacks intelligence going forward, lacks the nous to know when to cross early and when to go for the byline. His crossing anyway is still inept and lacks the skill to pick out a specific player in the middle. How many more seasons before he begins to hit a decent cross? Rose - as above Midfield - Dembele back to holding on to the ball too much and then losing possession. Eriksen doesn't risk enough going forward, fades in/out of games, still can't hit a decent corner and his free kicks have gone to pot. Wanyama great at breaking up play but clumsy and gives away too many free kicks. He can also get drawn out of position by clever opponents. Lamela - FGS teach him how to tackle without going to ground and to use his right foot! Sissoko - sell him at the first opportunity! Kane - needs to get back to shooting for the corners of the goal and not straight at the keeper. Janssen - give the poor guy some decent service and he'll get a few goals. At the moment he's trying to be creator and goalscorer. He's a target man and poacher and needs to be on the end of things not at the start of things! Often watching the games back I will pause at certain points to try to work out why a player played a certain pass and not the one I think he should have played. In most cases it is that the player chose the easier option, possibly fearful of giving the ball away or simply, in certain players cases, they simply didn't have the vision to see the other pass. In conclusion, I guess I don't understand why our players are not coached these fundamentals and if they are being, what does that tell us about these players as I/we keep seeing the same weaknesses time and time again. http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...28156&page=211 maybe just maybe I'm not THAT crazy after all....
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#1040 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,902
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Got to say I fear for us today. The way we lost our heads last year was embarassing and a disgrace and Chelsea obviously know how to push our buttons. If we end up taking a bad beating on the back of Poch resting players midweek the knives will be out.
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#1041 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
Posts: 51,265
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Quote:
LOL do you remember we had this exact same conversation toward the end of the season before last, and you disagreed with me when I said I couldn't see any actual evidence of coaching?
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...28156&page=211 maybe just maybe I'm not THAT crazy after all.... ![]() |
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#1042 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,213
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Ok so your first assertion is completely made up, and I was wrong about Kane. Big deal. I'm unsure about the relevance of either of those things to the present conversation though, would you like to clarify?
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#1043 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 66
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Spurs are doing pretty well. Sides tend to struggle when they're new to the CL (apart from Leicester lol) but your league position is good. I'm surprised anyone sees Poch's time at the club as anything other than very productive. With Kane back i think you stand a chance against any side in the league.
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#1044 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
Posts: 51,265
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Quote:
Ok so your first assertion is completely made up, and I was wrong about Kane. Big deal. I'm unsure about the relevance of either of those things to the present conversation though, would you like to clarify?
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#1045 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,213
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I was bragging about being always right? Even for you DP, it's an incredibly stupid thing to say.
If it's a confrontation you want, you know I have absolutely no problem engaging with you on one. The thread police will no doubt pretend not to notice that this is you starting with me, and completely unprovoked, but it's whatever at this point. |
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#1046 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,792
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Very downbeat about this one - can't see us winning. Holding on to the fact we seem to do well against the big teams this season.
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#1047 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,850
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Well this is a good start.
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#1048 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,213
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This is our problem. We press well when we want to, but we don't have much quality in possession. We didn't really create anything when we had Chelsea penned in their half, and now we need to chase the game we don't have any ideas or invention.
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#1049 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,902
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Well, what can you say about that. Even when we were playing well in the first half, there was'nt one single second where I thought that if Chelsea got one back, they would not go on to win the game.
Yet again, Poch's poor in-game tactics were exposed. Unable to sucessfully change anything in the second half as Chelsea strolled to the win. They barely broke sweat in the second half. It was all so utterly predictable as soon as Chelsea scored. Oh well, at least there will be no more "we are still unbeaten" in defence of Poch. |
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#1050 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hampshire, England
Posts: 1,156
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We actually played well in that game, it was just a shame Pedro scored a world class goal when he did just before HT. It ultimately got the crowd behind them and the only other real chance they got they scored from.
Now comes the real test as we have a run of fixtures where we will be expected to win. It's to early to judge both Poch and the team in the league. December is going to be an interesting month. |
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