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#1 |
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,036
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SNP Watch
Does Sturgeon understand what the Brexit vote was all about ? The question was not ' should Scotland stay in the EU and if not shall we use it as another excuse to hold yet another independence referendum?' it was 'Should the UK stay in the EU?' The majority of the UK (of which Scotland is a part) voted to leave. End of.
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#2 |
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,160
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I'm sure she understands perfectly but in her single minded independence fixated approach to all things maybe she is deluding herself that somehow she can simply ignore reality?
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#3 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,386
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Oh no - another SNP watch thread. People seem to be obsessed....................
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#4 |
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Oh no - another SNP watch thread. People seem to be obsessed....................
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#5 |
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 15,121
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Oh no - another SNP watch thread. People seem to be obsessed....................
At the end of the day it's the SNP who keep the subject of Independence perpetually on the political agenda its therefore entirely reasonable to debate the arguments, as it is there performance and/or lack of it in Government, its how democratic debate works. Although admittedly debate is an alien co concept for a party that block votes every issue. |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 27,514
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Oh no - another SNP watch thread. People seem to be obsessed....................
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#7 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,332
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Hey, nobody's making you read or contribute to them.
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#8 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scotlandshire
Posts: 9,078
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At the end of the day it's the SNP who keep the subject of Independence perpetually on the political agenda its therefore entirely reasonable to debate the arguments, as it is there performance and/or lack of it in Government, its how democratic debate works. Although admittedly debate is an alien co concept for a party that block votes every issue.
Now it's a principle of Westminster that no government can bind it's successor so obviously any "promises" made by the previous government need not be honoured by the one elected in 2014. The same must apply to Holyrood. The fundamental principle is that in a democracy there is no such thing as "End of". |
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#9 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,592
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Interestingly the opening post seems to ignore the whole point at hand. The SNP advocate an independent Scotland as a member of the EU. The EU referendum seemed to show a resounding support for remaining part of the EU. One of the driving elements of Scotland remaining part of the UK was that it'd ensure Scotland remained part of the EU. Brexit negates one of the fundamental premises that some, if not all, those who voted against independence were asked to base their decision on.
Now it's a principle of Westminster that no government can bind it's successor so obviously any "promises" made by the previous government need not be honoured by the one elected in 2014. The same must apply to Holyrood. The fundamental principle is that in a democracy there is no such thing as "End of". Nicola has to start to govern, not just protest. |
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#10 |
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,999
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Interestingly the opening post seems to ignore the whole point at hand. The SNP advocate an independent Scotland as a member of the EU. The EU referendum seemed to show a resounding support for remaining part of the EU. One of the driving elements of Scotland remaining part of the UK was that it'd ensure Scotland remained part of the EU. Brexit negates one of the fundamental premises that some, if not all, those who voted against independence were asked to base their decision on.
Now it's a principle of Westminster that no government can bind it's successor so obviously any "promises" made by the previous government need not be honoured by the one elected in 2014. The same must apply to Holyrood. The fundamental principle is that in a democracy there is no such thing as "End of". The EU vote showed a reasonable support by Scottish voters for the UK to stay in the EU. Lastly the promise was met, we did stay in the EU after the 18th Sept 2014, this might not have been the case if we had voted YES. It wasn't a promise that we would always be in the EU and we knew at the time a EU referendum was a possibility. |
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#11 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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Go back and see the Scottish Independence referendum question... there's no mention of the EU. I think the polling data also showed it was not a top priority for most NO voters.
The EU vote showed a reasonable support by Scottish voters for the UK to stay in the EU. Lastly the promise was met, we did stay in the EU after the 18th Sept 2014, this might not have been the case if we had voted YES. It wasn't a promise that we would always be in the EU and we knew at the time a EU referendum was a possibility. |
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#12 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,592
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And now we're heading towards another referendum, hastened by the change in circumstances. Lets be quite clear "ONCE IN A GENERATION" has been rendered meaningless by the change in events. A Tory majority and an exit from the EU both against the express wishes of the Scottish electorate. It's times to look at revisiting the question of how Scotland can be most effectively governed.
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#13 |
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,289
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The same must apply to Holyrood. The fundamental principle is that in a democracy there is no such thing as "End of".
In terms of the Scottish government or the SNP UK international relationship including those relating to the European Union are not a devolved power. Scotland does not on its own have any rights or powers on the membership of the European outside of it being a part of the UK as whole. If the Scottish Government or SNP made any promise to remain in European that would have only had any merit if they were the government of the UK or an independent Scotland. As that is not the case they have no power to determine if the UK is to remain in Europe or not. Nor do they have any right to determine the Scotland's relationship with the EU. To put it in simple terms the UK is a member of the EU. Scotland is not a member of the EU so it cannot promise to stay in something it is not already in. Scotland will have to apply to join the EU as a separate nation after the UK leaves. Here is one for you. Would you accept an independent Scotland if it means switching to the Euro ? Because if you want Scotland to re-join the EU they will enforce you to accept the Euro as they have done with any new member states in recent years ? The problem the SNP has and why they want to rush through another referendum is down to the Euro. Because she knows once the UK leaves EU it makes it impossible for Scotland to join without accepting the Euro as the currency. She is aware voters in Scotland would be against this idea and it would scupper any bid for independent Scotland. |
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#14 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,332
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Just make sure you all do the job properly and go this time please.
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#15 |
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,999
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And now we're heading towards another referendum, hastened by the change in circumstances. Lets be quite clear "ONCE IN A GENERATION" has been rendered meaningless by the change in events. A Tory majority and an exit from the EU both against the express wishes of the Scottish electorate. It's times to look at revisiting the question of how Scotland can be most effectively governed.
The EU vote was a UK wide vote on the UK position in the EU... we are not being taken out against our will. She's seems to have discarded the once in a generation/lifetime statement and also her triple lock, but holding another referendum just now would be anti-democratic on her terms. She said that if the Scottish people wanted another referendum, then it was only democratic to hold one... the most recent poll I've seen shows that a majority don't want another referendum and therefore on her logic we shouldn't have one. |
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#16 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,592
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You need to understand though, it's a great a pleasure to the people of Scotland sitting back and taking all your tax revenue to fund our superior system off the back of your hard work. A highlight of the union is knowing that those outside of Scotland get comparatively substandard services whilst paying so much in tax, whilst we pay less and get so much more off your taxes and your handwork. You must surely understand why it's fun for us to raise the referendum question now and again to see how much people like yourself are willing to pay to keep us happy and the lifestyle we're entitled to expect you to keep us in. Enjoy your budget cuts, I hope they bite.
![]() Just go. |
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#17 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,332
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A Tory majority doesn't change anything...unless you just want a repeat of the same old arguments.
The EU vote was a UK wide vote on the UK position in the EU... we are not being taken out against our will. She's seems to have discarded the once in a generation/lifetime statement and also her triple lock, but holding another referendum just now would be anti-democratic on her terms. She said that if the Scottish people wanted another referendum, then it was only democratic to hold one... the most recent poll I've seen shows that a majority don't want another referendum and therefore on her logic we shouldn't have one.
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#18 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scotlandshire
Posts: 9,078
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You seem to labour under the impression that the EU will accept you. Your current financial figures, which will not improve, will preclude this.
Nicola has to start to govern, not just protest. |
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#19 |
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,999
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And if that continues to remain the case then I'll let you into a secret; there won't be one.
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#20 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,592
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Quote:
A Tory majority doesn't change anything...unless you just want a repeat of the same old arguments.
The EU vote was a UK wide vote on the UK position in the EU... we are not being taken out against our will. She's seems to have discarded the once in a generation/lifetime statement and also her triple lock, but holding another referendum just now would be anti-democratic on her terms. She said that if the Scottish people wanted another referendum, then it was only democratic to hold one... the most recent poll I've seen shows that a majority don't want another referendum and therefore on her logic we shouldn't have one. Ms Sturgeons only way of diverting attention from a completely bankrupt country is to raise the spectre of independence - she is playing a dangerous game. |
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#21 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,332
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That's true... so not really hastened as you say, just wishful thinking on your part...
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#22 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,592
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If you think this has done any to strengthen the case for Union I think you're misguided. I want a referendum when we know it's a guaranteed Yes, not before, if that means now or, in the longterm, say 4 to 5 years, it would still be worth the wait.
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#23 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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I agree, which is why I question Ms Sturgeons raising of it now.
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#24 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,289
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[quote=anndra_w;83855980 to fund our superior system off the back of your hard work.
A highlight of the union is knowing that those outside of Scotland get comparatively substandard services whilst paying so much in tax, [/QUOTE] Problem is this is really not true http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...s_left_vacant/ Problems of the lack of funding in the NHS by the Scottish Government is well documented. Along with Scotland's general health problems, mental heath support issues and alcohol problems. This is the problem you make some areas free of charge unlike in the UK but the money still has to come out of another service nothing is really free. BTW Scotland has its own powers to raise tax and is responsible budgets before you try to blame this issue on Westminster. |
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#25 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,332
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Problem is this is really not true
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...s_left_vacant/ Problems of the lack of funding in the NHS by the Scottish Government is well documented. Along with Scotland's general health problems, mental heath support issues and alcohol problems. This is the problem you make some areas free of charge unlike in the UK but the money still has to come out of another service nothing is really free. BTW Scotland has its own powers to raise tax and is responsible budgets before you try to blame this issue on Westminster. |
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