Again you are twisting what I say. I never said anything about being less welcoming merely that Scotland is according to census data the least ethnically diverse part of the UK and trust me as someone who floats between London and Scotland on a regular basis the difference is night and day.

I don't have a jaundiced view of Scotland or Britain, Scotland is the country of my birth, my home no matter how far I may be away from it, being Scottish is who I am and what makes me who I am. But I also take great pride in Britain, I recognise the strength in unity the UK provides on everything from the economy to defence. Not wanting to throw that away does not equate to hating Scotland no matter what you or anyone else thinks and the fact you all resort to this line as a last attack merely makes me realise that in right wing or left wing clothes nationalism is always divisive.

No it was a plan. You may not have liked it. It may not have covered everything you hoped for. Some of it may or may not have worked - but there was a framework in place to move forward.

Compare that to Brexit. A complete disaster based on a load of toxic xenophobic hot air and a few hundred million quid promised for the NHS plastered on the side of a bus!

But in unionist eyes that is forgiveable. Because despite our votes, the good old UK knows what is best for us.

I disagree, the white paper was not a plan... no costings, no tax plans (apart from a cut corporation tax), but info on better childcare... as I said a sales aid.

BTW I think Brexit is a mess, but that doesn't mean I'm any closer to voting for indy. Btw we are the UK.

Again your opinion to interpret how you wish.


Enjoy it while it lasts

BIB - You too

I think your wrong, I think the EU referendum was decided a long time before polling day. At any rate Brexit wasn't about xenophobia,or if it was you might explain to me why virtually every Asian person I know (there are many) and every eastern European person I know supported the leave campaign?

Uncontrolled immigration affects everything from the labour market, wages to housing and even public services like the NHS and Schools. The effects have been far less in Scotland because proportionately Scotland has had a far smaller influx of immigrants and population growth is much less than in England and Wales. If Scotland had I'm 100% certain the referendum result would have been very different in Scotland.

At any rate I'd be very careful waving xenophobia card given the anti-English sentiment rife in the nationalist movement.

I read the 2014 independence manifesto and given that the SNP has 80 years to prepare it was nothing short of disappointing. Vague on detail, what detail there was seemed to depend on Scotland piggy backing off the rUK on everything from the currency to defence. In the end you just had to ask yourself "well what's ****ing point of it all?"

What does the fact London has more immigrants than Scotland have to do with anything? Do you accept that the Scottish Government, a so called nationalist government is welcoming of immigrants, refugee's and English people?


[/quote]

It's not nationalism that divisive, it's politics. Your world view is British, believe that the unity the of the UK economy and it's military works in the interests of Scotland. My view of the world is from a Scottish perspective and I see how the UK economy has held Scotland back and not allowed us to achieve our potential as a an independent nation running it's economy in the way that is in our best interest. I don't see unity in defence, I see Scottish soldiers dragged off to die in British wars that made us a terrorist target and made me ashamed, for the first time, to be British. You can't reconcile our two views because we're fundamentally opposed in values and in sense of nationality. Scottish nationality or nationalism does not divide us, it's the idea of Britain and the power that it holds that divides, as it always has. Britain is not a nation or a nationality it's a union that's about power and not a power for good.

Tell me, how are your concerns about uncontrolled immigration going to go along with the need of UK businesses to have continuing access to the single market? No free movement of people = No access.

Immigration was clearly the deciding factor. So either the UK Government sacrifices the concerns of Britain's businesses (unlikely) or betray the principles upon which Brexit was sold to the public. I would prepare for a huge jump in the UKIP vote and other organisations even further to the right. Not a Britain that to me is very appealing at all.

When article 50 is triggered and the countdown begins; the proverbial will really start hitting the fan. If the Yes movement could jump from the high 20 odd% to 45% on the back of a "sales brochure" imagine what will happen the next time? No organised Labour party to sell the No vote, project fear stories utterly discredited, an EU that is practically inviting us in for coffee and cake....But hey there is always Ruth to win us round!

Personally I wouldn't wave any flag but I have to agree with Phil here, our flag has been used by the SNP to associate it with them. It's all part of the SNP plan to equate the party with the country.

It's a shame really, Scotland used to be a much more inclusive place and were slowly being turned into an us and them nation by nationalists.

What your doing here is typical deflection in equating Brexit with The indyref.

The SNP have already stated that their white paper was flawed and in truth it would have cost us a lot of money to be independent this year, one SNP politician openly stated that it would be at least five years of hurt, much greater austerity than we have now.

Please explain why the SNP are now stating that leaving the EU will cause us ten years of pain and telling us it's much more difficult than we think while at the same time trying to claim that Scotland leaving the U.K. Would be relatively easy.

Why is the UK leaving the EU so hard but Scotland leaving the UK not?

It's not nationalism that divisive, it's politics. Your world view is British, believe that the unity the of the UK economy and it's military works in the interests of Scotland. My view of the world is from a Scottish perspective and I see how the UK economy has held Scotland back and not allowed us to achieve our potential as a an independent nation running it's economy in the way that is in our best interest. I don't see unity in defence, I see Scottish soldiers dragged off to die in British wars that made us a terrorist target and made me ashamed, for the first time, to be British. You can't reconcile our two views because we're fundamentally opposed in values and in sense of nationality. Scottish nationality or nationalism does not divide us, it's the idea of Britain and the power that it holds that divides, as it always has. Britain is not a nation or a nationality it's a union that's about power and not a power for good.[/quote]

You really do have a terribly jaundiced leftist view of the world and the UK. I suppose you hold the exact same view of all of our fellow EU friends who have been involved in foreign conflicts since the end of the Cold War?

I would reiterate that Scottish nationalism is a divisive force in Scotland today, the reality is that you emphasise this with every post you make, the one above is a great example.

Who are you to claim that Scotland and the Scottish military wouldn't have been involved in recent conflicts? Other similar sized countries (as you are often fond of saying) have been involved in the same conflicts. Denmark and Norway spring to mind immediately and I think your niaive to claim that a Scotland out of the UK would be this huge force for good.

You really do have a terribly jaundiced leftist view of the world and the UK. I suppose you hold the exact same view of all of our fellow EU friends who have been involved in foreign conflicts since the end of the Cold War?

I would reiterate that Scottish nationalism is a divisive force in Scotland today, the reality is that you emphasise this with every post you make, the one above is a great example.

Who are you to claim that Scotland and the Scottish military wouldn't have been involved in recent conflicts? Other similar sized countries (as you are often fond of saying) have been involved in the same conflicts. Denmark and Norway spring to mind immediately and I think your niaive to claim that a Scotland out of the UK would be this huge force for good.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norw...in_Afghanistan

I imagine you must also hate the Danes, a nation who contributed the highest per capita military force to Afghan and were highly involved in Iraq.

Then again you must really hate the French for their involvement in foreign wars, actually involved in more conflicts that we are.

Who is to say then that an iScotland would have been any different from other normal modern European nations?

It's not nationalism that divisive, it's politics. Your world view is British, believe that the unity the of the UK economy and it's military works in the interests of Scotland. My view of the world is from a Scottish perspective and I see how the UK economy has held Scotland back and not allowed us to achieve our potential as a an independent nation running it's economy in the way that is in our best interest. I don't see unity in defence, I see Scottish soldiers dragged off to die in British wars that made us a terrorist target and made me ashamed, for the first time, to be British. You can't reconcile our two views because we're fundamentally opposed in values and in sense of nationality. Scottish nationality or nationalism does not divide us, it's the idea of Britain and the power that it holds that divides, as it always has. Britain is not a nation or a nationality it's a union that's about power and not a power for good.[/quote]

You were the one who equated the Brexit vote with xenophobia and contrasted that with an "open and inclusive Scotland". I merely pointed out the Scotland is the least ethnically diverse part of the UK and has not seen even a fraction of the net migration experienced by the big English and Welsh cities in the past 10 years.

As for Scotland's economic potential, well Scotland has GDP per capita on a par with SE England, and second only to London. It has lower unemployment than the wider UK, and several Scottish constituencies have the lowest unemployment rates in the UK. NE Scotland has the highest business start up rates in the UK and iirc was the 10th wealthiest area of the whole of the EU. That's not bad for a country that fails Scotland supposedly.

Glasgow's problems are not the fault of the UK they are created locally by domestic policies that are based on wealth re-distribution before wealth creation. One doesn't work without the other because there's only so much money you can redistribute if your not prepared to hike up taxes.


Nationalism is always divisive. I mean come on the whole point of the SNP is to DIVIDE the UK into two separate states on the premise that Scotland is different from the UK and would be better off on its own.

When nationalism is dressed up in right wing politics its usually wears the clothes of racism and xenophobia. When its dressed up in left wing politics it wears the clothes of class war, rich against poor, and in a worst case scenario it blames a certain ethnicity for stealing the nations resources.

BIB. I can't even bring myself to reply to that because its so twisted and pathetic I feel it would waste my energy.

Independence rally today in Glasgow. Looks like people are fed up with it?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Csj53OLWgAAAuCV.jpg:large

Did swinger Tommy turn up?

Was he supposed to be giving you a hand?

What the hell are you on about?

Not this tired old claptrap about the SNP being right wing and xenophobic.

It's a centre ground party and it's raison d'etre is look after Scotland's interests. Sometimes they will concur with other parts of the UK, sometimes they won't e.g. Brexit.

Scotland can't be different from the UK as it is part of the UK - being that the UK is an incorporating union. I'm inferring it was a sloppy reference to England.

You seem most interested in his 'nocturnal activities'.
I don't think I need say much else...

That was organised by Tommy Sheridan's mob, it wasn't SNP related, or an independence rally.

Can't make the economic case stand well... well Sturgeon now thinks it's independence at any cost.

Basically an admission that in the immediate aftermath of a Yes vote there will be bloodbath cuts to the public services and welfare to fund and float the independent state, in the hope that after a decade or so the tide will turn.

At least one MP has been honest enough to say this. I wonder how it will go down in the massively Government dependent central belt?

I never said they were right wing and xenophobic, I said whether left or right nationalism is always a divisive ideology. Currently we have left wing nationalism in Scotland driven by a class war against the wealthy and evil big business. Its even reflected in Scotland's voting patterns, poorer parts of Scotland voted Yes while the wealthiest overwhelmingly voted No in 2014. Its also the wealthier areas that recorded the biggest swings and gains for the Tories in May.

I suppose when all else fails and folk don't get your message and prefer to decide for themselves on the economic issues she just reverts to good old pig headedness regarding the issue.

I imagine any negative consequences will not have to be endured by her as she will remain wealthy in any circumstance.

Today at the Scottish Independence Convention, where seemingly it's okay to call political opponents ''dykes' as they mock Ruth Davidson's sexuality in song.

https://twitter.com/kevwodonnell/sta...27585223868416

Welcome to the progressive comedy world of the nationalists, and endorsed by feminists such as Elane C. Smith and described as hilarious by MP Joanna Cherry.

What's next going to have them splitting their sides? A song in which gay male political opponents as described as p******s.

People posting on the internet have had their collar felt for similar behaviour, so I wonder if the cops would be interested in this?