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Old 14-10-2016, 14:28
Black Sheep
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Nothing new to bring = doesn't agree with me.

I assure you I have no chip on my shoulder against anyone or anything. Neither now, nor when I was handing leaflets in the street for 'NO' in 2014.

Sometimes a seismic event changes you and this referendum is so for me. I see my equal partner tell me that my equal partner will do me the honour of engaging with me however, my equal partner will take charge and decide how I will approach this. As an equal partner I will live with what my equal partner gets.

And because I am asking to be a genuine equal partner I am subjected to the usual technique of the abusive partner of being told I am too weak, to small, too broke to survive without them. Something I suspect the Irish were also told a while ago.

I'm sorry, I won't be handing leaflets for no (or whatever they will be called) next time. I no longer believe we are 'better together' and I suspect I'm not alone.
I seriously doubt that you were ever handing out leaflets for Better Together, you language is just too wrong for that, more likely you were handing out ayes leaflets, which is OK, you can admit it.

As for equal partners I'm seriously disbelieving younthere too as you cannot honestly think that Scotland should have the same voting weight as a country ten times its size, the EU doesn't do that either. We all have a vote in the U.K., and it's up to us to use that vote. For Scottish matters we have a devolved parliament that appears to be working for us as we certainly have several advantages over our English cousins.

And of course, the too small, too weak, too broke thing was invented by no other than John Swinney and is a true tactic of the SNP supporter.
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Old 14-10-2016, 14:32
Black Sheep
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I'm sure we'd all like to know their reasons, so we can answer them and reassure them that independence is the best option.
Can we pick up on that as we obviously disagree but some Leave voters claim that the UK will now be independent.

Why do you not support this position but argue that Scotland should be?
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Old 14-10-2016, 14:36
CoolSharpHarp
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I'm not sure they really want independence...

John Swinney says SNP could keep pound policy in new independence referendum


JOHN Swinney has said the SNP could go into a second independence referendum arguing Scotland could keep the pound despite one of the First Minister’s own economic advisers suggesting the policy was a “mistake” the first time round.

Mr Swinney said the Nationalists might go to the country again advocating a currency union with sterling, even though it was seen as a key weakness in the Yes case of 2014.
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Old 14-10-2016, 14:40
Black Sheep
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I was in this group. I actually said this to someone in 2014.

Being taken out of the EU by another component of this asymmetric UK has made me realise I value my European citizenship more.

The bile and hate coming from them has made me see I actually have nothing in common with them, there is no respect for us and the truth is, it's because they're different - they are not the same as us, there are different priorities and wants, politically and socially.

The most obvious manifestation of this? You can see the Anglo-Scottish border on the referendum outcome map.

The Union is holed beneath the water line thanks to this.
Let's expand here, you were in a Group?

Can you answer the following:

If you went as far as campaigning for a No vote then you must have had strong reasons for it, what specifically made you a No voter?

Im interested in your main reasons for voting No, not your reasons for changing to Yes.
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Old 14-10-2016, 14:42
Black Sheep
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Well you know what they say about folk who keep doing the same things but expect a different result.......

There's even less chance of a currency union if one of the countries is outside the EU?
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Old 14-10-2016, 14:42
mimik1uk
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how can we possibly have a currency union with the UK if scotland is meant to be in the EU and the UK wont be ?

the currency union seemed a ridiculous position 2 years ago and will be an even harder sell should a 2nd indyref ever happen
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Old 14-10-2016, 14:52
tiggertiny
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how can we possibly have a currency union with the UK if scotland is meant to be in the EU and the UK wont be ?

the currency union seemed a ridiculous position 2 years ago and will be an even harder sell should a 2nd indyref ever happen
But Alex Salmond told us feeble English that the pound was a millstone round Scotland's neck we English are a basket case Scotland will join the euro. Then he wasn't for joining the euro not only that but he wanted to hang the millstone round his neck, only to be told it wouldn't work and was not going to happen.

Has the SNP forgotten all this in just two years?

We English are now not only told our currency (the UK pound) is of no value but we are also racists akin to Nazis no less. Yet they still want the pound!!
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Old 14-10-2016, 14:58
smudges dad
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Can we pick up on that as we obviously disagree but some Leave voters claim that the UK will now be independent.

Why do you not support this position but argue that Scotland should be?
The UK has always ben independent but the 4 countries within the UK are not independent. There are no laws imposed on the UK by Europe without the UK's consent, but laws are imposed on Scotland, Wales and NI by the voting of English MPs, even if a majority of MPs from those countries oppose those laws.
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Old 14-10-2016, 15:08
Black Sheep
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The UK has always ben independent but the 4 countries within the UK are not independent. There are no laws imposed on the UK by Europe without the UK's consent, but laws are imposed on Scotland, Wales and NI by the voting of English MPs, even if a majority of MPs from those countries oppose those laws.
The fundamental question was about the UK gaining its independence, do you support that view? Do you agree that the UK has the right to be independent of the EU?
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Old 14-10-2016, 15:17
smudges dad
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The fundamental question was about the UK gaining its independence, do you support that view? Do you agree that the UK has the right to be independent of the EU?
I thought my answer was incredibly clear.

I do not believe the UK is, or has been, dependent on the EU, therefore you are expecting me to answer a question that is not valid to start with.
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Old 14-10-2016, 15:27
Varys
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Let's expand here, you were in a Group?

Can you answer the following:

If you went as far as campaigning for a No vote then you must have had strong reasons for it, what specifically made you a No voter?

Im interested in your main reasons for voting No, not your reasons for changing to Yes.
I meant I was in that group of people who would under no circumstances have voted Yes in 2014.

Campaigning for Better Together is perhaps a little strong, I did hand out leaflets - I still have some of them and I was a strong supporter of the position. I had one particularly unpleasant argument with a friend of a friend about 6 months before the referendum.

I obviously voted no and that was the right vote for me then. I did so for a variety of head and heart reasons, but it was a no brainer anyhow. I felt the SNP case was a joke.

The former reasons include - EU membership concerns (vote no or you're out of the EU), currency concerns but the latter really weighed more for me - a sense of kinship with the rest of the UK, British citizenship and that is what has changed totally for me.

I'm angry at what they've done (which is perhaps why you say my language is wrong). It will be with no joy that I vote yes, but I will.

We have no voice and no influence in the UK and for something as big as this, that's just unacceptable.
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Old 14-10-2016, 15:30
Black Sheep
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I thought my answer was incredibly clear.

I do not believe the UK is, or has been, dependent on the EU, therefore you are expecting me to answer a question that is not valid to start with.
Ah, I understand, you think Scotland is dependent on the UK? We will have to disagree on that one I'm afraid.

However, I don't think it's a matter of dependency I think it's a matter of political will and democracy and I don't think for a minitue that England acts as a single bloc, nor does Scotland. Scotland democratically voted to remain within the UK, which I believe was a good thing and the UK democratically voted to leave the EU, which I believe was a bad thing.

Given time, I might come to think the opposite depending on how Brexit goes but I will continue to believe that my country isn't dependent on anyone rather it's economically more beneficial for us to be in both unions if I could choose, alas some folk thought the UK going it alone was a good idea.
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Old 14-10-2016, 15:41
Black Sheep
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I meant I was in that group of people who would under no circumstances have voted Yes in 2014.

Campaigning for Better Together is perhaps a little strong, I did hand out leaflets - I still have some of them and I was a strong supporter of the position. I had one particularly unpleasant argument with a friend of a friend about 6 months before the referendum.

I obviously voted no and that was the right vote for me then. I did so for a variety of head and heart reasons, but it was a no brainer anyhow. I felt the SNP case was a joke.

The former reasons include - EU membership concerns (vote no or you're out of the EU), currency concerns but the latter really weighed more for me - a sense of kinship with the rest of the UK, British citizenship and that is what has changed totally for me.

I'm angry at what they've done (which is perhaps why you say my language is wrong). It will be with no joy that I vote yes, but I will.

We have no voice and no influence in the UK and for something as big as this, that's just unacceptable.
So the EU vote which was a whole UK one has swayed you firmly into the Yes camp despite the fact that the SNP, whose plan was a joke have no other plan today, nor do they seem to be deviating from the last one.

So now you will be using the same arguments that you once argued against I imagine. I'm sure that will be quite difficult.
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Old 14-10-2016, 16:02
Varys
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So the EU vote which was a whole UK one has swayed you firmly into the Yes camp despite the fact that the SNP, whose plan was a joke have no other plan today, nor do they seem to be deviating from the last one.

So now you will be using the same arguments that you once argued against I imagine. I'm sure that will be quite difficult.
Things have changed......enormously. Perhaps you have changed your mind on some issue in the past? It can be done. Positions, thoughts, feelings evolve as the world changes. They will no doubt present their case when the referendum campaign starts. That will be a change, to have a plan before the referendum.

Oh, and by UK vote you really mean English vote. Isn't that what UK and British really mean?

Our 5.5million versus their 55?

Under exactly what circumstance will a UK vote mean a Scottish vote? And if it ever did, we would be hearing about it for literally centuries.
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Old 14-10-2016, 16:16
CharlieClown
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I was in this group. I actually said this to someone in 2014.

Being taken out of the EU by another component of this asymmetric UK has made me realise I value my European citizenship more.

The bile and hate coming from them has made me see I actually have nothing in common with them, there is no respect for us and the truth is, it's because they're different - they are not the same as us, there are different priorities and wants, politically and socially.

The most obvious manifestation of this? You can see the Anglo-Scottish border on the referendum outcome map.

The Union is holed beneath the water line thanks to this.
This is why the UK is not any kind of union/family of nations. We don't get to vote as a nation, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland could have conceivably all voted to remain yet all 3 could be taken out by England. In General elections Wales and Scotland can and have voted Labour yet get lumbered with a Tory government. This is clearly a huge democratic deficit. For me it's simply unacceptable.

You can argue economics all day long, as a result of this union Scotland will have to deal with a deficit, that's a fact. But it will eventually iron out and the Country will get its books balanced. Cameron and Osborne both answer the same question to "why if brexit is so damaging is Norway doing so well" the answer being they produce as much oil as the UK but only have a population of 5 million. That speaks volumes as to who benefits from the union.

Let's work together as a true family of nations, a family of independent nations. I used to think Devo Max would be enough but not no more. Holyrood must never be under any kind of overlordship to Westminster.
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Old 14-10-2016, 16:17
CoolSharpHarp
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Things have changed......enormously. Perhaps you have changed your mind on some issue in the past? It can be done. Positions, thoughts, feelings evolve as the world changes. They will no doubt present their case when the referendum campaign starts. That will be a change, to have a plan before the referendum.

Oh, and by UK vote you really mean English vote. Isn't that what UK and British really mean?

Our 5.5million versus their 55?

Under exactly what circumstance will a UK vote mean a Scottish vote? And if it ever did, we would be hearing about it for literally centuries.
You were never a no voter in 2014
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Old 14-10-2016, 16:19
Varys
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You were never a no voter in 2014
I obviously cannot prove it, but I was.
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Old 14-10-2016, 16:23
zarkov
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David Mundell the day after the EU vote seemed to think it was important to be quite clear that it was a "decisive vote by the people of Scotland to Remain in EU".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kcY0TR9acQ

From his actions since, and those of the party he represents, I wonder why he bothered making such a distinction?
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Old 14-10-2016, 16:29
CharlieClown
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You were never a no voter in 2014
You say that like it's some club that you can never under any circumstances leave. No matter what evidence you receive that proves Scotland is being mugged, you will never vote for your countries right to self determine it's own future. I find that sad indeed.
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Old 14-10-2016, 16:41
CoolSharpHarp
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You say that like it's some club that you can never under any circumstances leave. No matter what evidence you receive that proves Scotland is being mugged, you will never vote for your countries right to self determine it's own future. I find that sad indeed.
Of course somebody can change their opinion... a few years ago I would have voted to leave the EU and I voted remain. My comment was more to do with the tone and reasons given by the poster.... using pro-indy cliches from 2014.

Regarding getting mugged.... let's hoped I get mugged tonight and somebody puts £8/9bn in my pocket...
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Old 14-10-2016, 16:47
Varys
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Of course somebody can change their opinion... a few years ago I would have voted to leave the EU and I voted remain. My comment was more to do with the tone and reasons given by the poster.... using pro-indy cliches from 2014.

Regarding getting mugged.... let's hoped I get mugged tonight and somebody puts £8/9bn in my pocket...
Perhaps I have come across as cliched!

If so, I've probably accepted some things relating to the democratic deficit in Scotland, which previously maybe didn't matter to me. Like I say, people change.
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Old 14-10-2016, 17:16
bhoy07
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I was in this group. I actually said this to someone in 2014.

Being taken out of the EU by another component of this asymmetric UK has made me realise I value my European citizenship more.

The bile and hate coming from them has made me see I actually have nothing in common with them, there is no respect for us and the truth is, it's because they're different - they are not the same as us, there are different priorities and wants, politically and socially.

The most obvious manifestation of this? You can see the Anglo-Scottish border on the referendum outcome map.

The Union is holed beneath the water line thanks to this.
What about the splits in Scotland? In Angus Robertsons own constituency the remain vote won by just 122 votes.

Still waiting to see the SNP unite Scotland after IndyRef 1 - tbh I haven't seen any attempt to start.
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Old 14-10-2016, 21:13
anndra_w
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I seriously doubt that you were ever handing out leaflets for Better Together, you language is just too wrong for that, more likely you were handing out ayes leaflets, which is OK, you can admit it.

As for equal partners I'm seriously disbelieving younthere too as you cannot honestly think that Scotland should have the same voting weight as a country ten times its size, the EU doesn't do that either. We all have a vote in the U.K., and it's up to us to use that vote. For Scottish matters we have a devolved parliament that appears to be working for us as we certainly have several advantages over our English cousins.

And of course, the too small, too weak, too broke thing was invented by no other than John Swinney and is a true tactic of the SNP supporter.
Listening to Stephen Jardine this morning on the phone in, seemed like every person that phoned in was a former yes voter or no voter who was switching sides, on the whole the majority didn't ring true. The arguments they made applied as equally in 2014 as they would at any other Indy ref. In real life I've spoken to former yes and no voters who are now flirting with the idea of changing their stance, contrary socialists and self interested business minded types neither represebtative of ordinary voters.
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Old 14-10-2016, 23:29
Varys
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Interesting to see I have been met with some scepticism on my shift in opinion. I genuinely didn't expect that.

It seems straightforward to me that some will change (in each direction) and some won't on a whole variety of issues.

This one is a heart issue for me, one of respect for Scotland.

It's a bit difficult to have a sensible discussion on the matter when you're met with

You were never a no voter in 2014

particularly when I have a very vivid memory of coming home from work, walking to my local primary school, getting a ballot paper and crossing the no box, staying up with a bottle of wine and going to bed feeling sick when yes got a bit too close for comfort.
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Old 14-10-2016, 23:55
kezo
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Did I read this right = SNP voted for Heathrow Airport to build another runway? The irony for this is this airport is in England not Scotland but it was about bringing in jobs to Scotland?

So this deal is best for Scotland? So why not in Scotland say expand Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Inverness or the one that badly needs it is Dundee?? ....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...r-snp-backing/


A third runway at Heathrow has become more likely ahead of a decision by ministers next week after the Scottish Government backed the plan. ... Economy Secretary Keith Brown insisted that building an extra runway at Heathrow rather than Gatwick would be "the best deal for Scotland".


So lets be honest then if we Scots are hard done by then you can't complain that expanding a runway in England is going to benefit Scotland? So what happens after Independence once this runway is built - SNP going to tell the UK Governement "thank you now f.. off" ?

I can follow politics for so long hence why I just drop in and out but for this one for me baffles me if we are led to believe "England bad" "Scotland good" or back in ref 2014 ... "Westmonster" ... I wonder if Holyrood should really be called "Hollywood"
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