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Old 08-09-2016, 10:07
CoolSharpHarp
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What you consider a reasonable trigger for a second referendum, if the EU situation is not one?
Time... maybe a couple of decades... let's call it a generation.

That wasn't my point re Sturgeon though, I'm saying her handling of the issue hasn't been good, for example in her speech immediately after the result, she went straight to possible Independence. I think a more nuanced approach would have served her better and made her look less opportunistic.

I think for many her utterances of independence are now white noise... yeah yeah we've heard it before.
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:23
anndra_w
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Time... maybe a couple of decades... let's call it a generation.

That wasn't my point re Sturgeon though, I'm saying her handling of the issue hasn't been good, for example in her speech immediately after the result, she went straight to possible Independence. I think a more nuanced approach would have served her better and made her look less opportunistic.

I think for many her utterances of independence are now white noise... yeah yeah we've heard it before.
It depends who she's talking to. She's got to appeal to yes voters, SNP supporters but most of all the soft no voters who are open to Scottish independence but wary about what it entails. The people she doesn't need to consider are the unionists. They can't convinced to give up their nationality any more than an independence supporter could be persuaded to give up theirs. There's nothing to be gained by trying to appeal to the minority who feel their national identity is British.
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:24
Phil 2804
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What you consider a reasonable trigger for a second referendum, if the EU situation is not one?
Her own assertion, support for independence consistently at 60% for a sustained period.

Of course a cynic might say that having the press constantly debating a referendum keeps them away from discussing Scotland's domestic political issues and therefore holding the SNP Government to account.

If I was a cynic...
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:30
anndra_w
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Her own assertion, support for independence consistently at 60% for a sustained period.

Of course a cynic might say that having the press constantly debating a referendum keeps them away from discussing Scotland's domestic political issues and therefore holding the SNP Government to account.

If I was a cynic...
The only reason the press bring it up is because the unionist parties will
Not drop the issue until Sturgeon rules out Indy indefinitely. Also they think taking a hardline on Indy will win them votes.
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:31
CoolSharpHarp
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It depends who she's talking to. She's got to appeal to yes voters, SNP supporters but most of all the soft no voters who are open to Scottish independence but wary about what it entails. The people she doesn't need to consider are the unionists. They can't convinced to give up their nationality any more than an independence supporter could be persuaded to give up theirs. There's nothing to be gained by trying to appeal to the minority who feel their national identity is British.
I don't think this approach appeals to soft NO voters though (as I say it's white noise now) and the lack of movement in polls would tend to back this up... if she is winning some over, she's equally losing soft YES voters (which I know a few that would currently vote NO).
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:33
CoolSharpHarp
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The only reason the press bring it up is because the unionist parties will
Not drop the issue until Sturgeon rules out Indy indefinitely. Also they think taking a hardline on Indy will win them votes.
That's rubbish... the SNP were talking about triggers more or less immediately after the Scottish Independence vote and they just had a big meeting to discuss it last Friday when they launched their big listening exercise... that's the one they wouldn't take questions from the press afterwards
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:37
Phil 2804
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The only reason the press bring it up is because the unionist parties will
Not drop the issue until Sturgeon rules out Indy indefinitely. Also they think taking a hardline on Indy will win them votes.
The level of denial amongst Nat supporters is breathtaking sometimes. Do you even follow the antics of Sturgeon and co?
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:49
Phil 2804
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I don't think this approach appeals to soft NO voters though (as I say it's white noise now) and the lack of movement in polls would tend to back this up... if she is winning some over, she's equally losing soft YES voters (which I know a few that would currently vote NO).
Look at the result of the May elections, outside the Central Belt there was a swing of 10% or more from SNP direct to the Conservatives particularly in the East and North East. The result speaks for itself, nothing has changed but the constant debate on an Indy ref is both boring the electorate and polarising party politics.
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Old 08-09-2016, 11:15
nottinghamc
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That's rubbish... the SNP were talking about triggers more or less immediately after the Scottish Independence vote and they just had a big meeting to discuss it last Friday when they launched their big listening exercise... that's the one they wouldn't take questions from the press afterwards
The SNP constantly talk about another referendum, or reasons for one, or what needs to be done for another one, then deny they're doing it and claim only the unionist parties are mentioning it. Unfortunately for them this is becoming more and more transparent, the voters have barely shifted since the referendum and the Conservatives are slowly solidifying themselves as the main unionist opposition. They hoped the EU referendum result would be a trigger, but it doesn't appear to have changed anything.
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Old 08-09-2016, 11:57
anndra_w
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The level of denial amongst Nat supporters is breathtaking sometimes. Do you even follow the antics of Sturgeon and co?
What antics? Pro-independence First Minister representing a pro-independence parliament seeks to persuade and convince of the need for indpendence? That's her doing the job she was elected to do. What she is not constantly doing is banging on about independence which the unionist minority within the parliament are doing. Only when the vote to leave the EU came into place did she start to talk about putting the legislation in place for a second referendum. Before that happened all we heard from the opposition was that the SNP were obsessed with independence. The only way the opposition would be happy is if the SNP were to give up advocating independence indefinitely. That will never happen, the opposition are not going to become any more enlightened or progressive so we're going to have years of the opposition banging on about independence. In the case of Ruth Davidson there's a clear electoral strategy there but for labour it does them no favours.
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Old 08-09-2016, 13:31
CoolSharpHarp
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What antics? Pro-independence First Minister representing a pro-independence parliament seeks to persuade and convince of the need for indpendence? That's her doing the job she was elected to do. What she is not constantly doing is banging on about independence which the unionist minority within the parliament are doing. Only when the vote to leave the EU came into place did she start to talk about putting the legislation in place for a second referendum. Before that happened all we heard from the opposition was that the SNP were obsessed with independence. The only way the opposition would be happy is if the SNP were to give up advocating independence indefinitely. That will never happen, the opposition are not going to become any more enlightened or progressive so we're going to have years of the opposition banging on about independence. In the case of Ruth Davidson there's a clear electoral strategy there but for labour it does them no favours.
Yeah she never brings up Scotland and independence

https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/773797053176680448
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Old 08-09-2016, 14:17
anndra_w
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There's nothing wrong with advocating and arguing for independence, that's different from neglecting the running of the country which is the accusation being made by the unionist parties. That accusation is baseless.
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Old 08-09-2016, 16:40
Orri
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There's nothing wrong with advocating and arguing for independence, that's different from neglecting the running of the country which is the accusation being made by the unionist parties. That accusation is baseless.
Of course it's baseless. The problem the SNP have is that the evidence is that they are very good at actually running Scotland. Better than the rest. So when it comes to electing a government people vote for them who have no intention in ever voting for independence.
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Old 08-09-2016, 22:55
Phil 2804
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What antics? Pro-independence First Minister representing a pro-independence parliament seeks to persuade and convince of the need for indpendence? That's her doing the job she was elected to do. What she is not constantly doing is banging on about independence which the unionist minority within the parliament are doing. Only when the vote to leave the EU came into place did she start to talk about putting the legislation in place for a second referendum. Before that happened all we heard from the opposition was that the SNP were obsessed with independence. The only way the opposition would be happy is if the SNP were to give up advocating independence indefinitely. That will never happen, the opposition are not going to become any more enlightened or progressive so we're going to have years of the opposition banging on about independence. In the case of Ruth Davidson there's a clear electoral strategy there but for labour it does them no favours.
ITS NOT A PRO INDEPENDENCE PARLIAMENT. ITS THE SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT.

There isn't even a majority of MSPs in favour of independence as the Greens ruled out another referendum for the time being. Even then the first duty of the parliament is the governance of Scotland not an endless debate about triggers for another referendum.

This is why the polls aren't shifting in your favour and this is why the backlash has already begun outside the Central Belt. The May elections were a shock for the SNP, no doubt, there were bold predictions of 70 or more seats and the worse part of them is the biggest gainers were the Conservatives, which means the long running Tory bashing no longer scares the Scottish electorate.

Its those Tory voters your party is going to have to convince to vote YES. Good luck.
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Old 08-09-2016, 23:03
Phil 2804
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Of course it's baseless. The problem the SNP have is that the evidence is that they are very good at actually running Scotland. Better than the rest. So when it comes to electing a government people vote for them who have no intention in ever voting for independence.
There's a dead couple on the M9 whose families might debate how good the SNP are at running Scottish public services. The Supreme court might disagree also.

Lets not even talk about the farmers and the utter debacle of paying out CAP money this year, or the fact the deadline was extended to October with risk of fines from the EU of £40-125 million.

Also the tuition fees policy is also coming unstuck as Scottish students are losing out on university places due to the cap placed on funding by the Government.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...np-cap-amid-w/
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Old 08-09-2016, 23:53
anndra_w
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ITS NOT A PRO INDEPENDENCE PARLIAMENT. ITS THE SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT.

There isn't even a majority of MSPs in favour of independence as the Greens ruled out another referendum for the time being. Even then the first duty of the parliament is the governance of Scotland not an endless debate about triggers for another referendum.

This is why the polls aren't shifting in your favour and this is why the backlash has already begun outside the Central Belt. The May elections were a shock for the SNP, no doubt, there were bold predictions of 70 or more seats and the worse part of them is the biggest gainers were the Conservatives, which means the long running Tory bashing no longer scares the Scottish electorate.

Its those Tory voters your party is going to have to convince to vote YES. Good luck.
There's a huge majority against the Tories so there's no question that they're nothing to do with winning indpendence.

The green msps all back indpendence so it most certainly is a pro indpendence parliament.
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Old 09-09-2016, 00:00
CoolSharpHarp
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There's a huge majority against the Tories so there's no question that they're nothing to do with winning indpendence.

The green msps all back indpendence so it most certainly is a pro indpendence parliament.
None of the party's have a manifesto pledge to hold a indy ref in this parliament, so it's not a pro indy parliament.
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Old 09-09-2016, 08:40
Orri
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None of the party's have a manifesto pledge to hold a indy ref in this parliament, so it's not a pro indy parliament.
Both the Greens and SNP had a manifesto pledge to hold a referendum if certain preconditions were met. The same as it's assumed the present Westminster government will actually trigger A50 now that its referendum has said it should.
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Old 09-09-2016, 08:47
CoolSharpHarp
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Both the Greens and SNP had a manifesto pledge to hold a referendum if certain preconditions were met. The same as it's assumed the present Westminster government will actually trigger A50 now that its referendum has said it should.
The SNP did not pledge to hold a referendum in this parliament. They wanted the right to hold a referendum if certain conditions were met, which is not the same as pledging to have a referendum.

If you want to see a pledge to hold a referendum, look back at the last SNP manifesto
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:23
anndra_w
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None of the party's have a manifesto pledge to hold a indy ref in this parliament, so it's not a pro indy parliament.
Neither ruled out a second referendum, both are now campaigning for independence. This is a pro independence parliament with a Tory opposition who have more seats with less votes than Labour at their lowest ever ebb in electoral history. It's not much to be proud of really is it?
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:36
CoolSharpHarp
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Neither ruled out a second referendum, both are now campaigning for independence. This is a pro independence parliament with a Tory opposition who have more seats with less votes than Labour at their lowest ever ebb in electoral history. It's not much to be proud of really is it?
BIB... ha ha ha

It's not a pro-independence parliament as none of the party's had a pledge to hold a referendum in this parliament... yes it really is that simple.

So now they are campaigning for independence... righty-o because yesterday you were telling us it's only unionist discussing independence.
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:48
anndra_w
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BIB... ha ha ha

It's not a pro-independence parliament as none of the party's had a pledge to hold a referendum in this parliament... yes it really is that simple.

So now they are campaigning for independence... righty-o because yesterday you were telling us it's only unionist discussing independence.
Firstly the majority of elected representatives who make up the parliament are supporters of independence. That makes it a pro independence parliament. You claim that only having a manifesto pledge can make it a pro-independence parliament but politicians could be supportive of a referendum and not support independence, so that claim is a nonsense. The voters have chosen to elect a majority MSP's in the knowledge that they support independence and as consequence of that our parliament is now majority pro-indpendence. It's quite simple really.

The SNP will always advocate and make the case for independence, but it has only been since the Brexit vote that we have seen that turn into a more official campaign, from both the Greens and the SNP, to persuade soft no voters of independence. What the unionists are obsessed with is ruling out the option of a second referendum. They are very keen that Scots are blocked from having a second referendum.
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Old 09-09-2016, 10:31
Phil 2804
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There's a huge majority against the Tories so there's no question that they're nothing to do with winning indpendence.

The green msps all back indpendence so it most certainly is a pro indpendence parliament.
Again you make the mistake of confusing electing members to represent constituencies and regions in parliament with independence. The last parliament had a pro-independence majority by your definition and the answer you got back was a clear No.

Since then nothing has changed in the minds of Scottish voters, even the EU referendum has barely registered its time let it go.

I wouldn't dismiss the Tories their vote surged in all the areas Nats have to win over to carry a Yes vote. Opinion in these areas is clearly hardening for the Unionist side, to the extent that voting Tory is now acceptable again in huge parts of Scotland.

Another fantastic SNP success.
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Old 09-09-2016, 11:28
anndra_w
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Again you make the mistake of confusing electing members to represent constituencies and regions in parliament with independence. The last parliament had a pro-independence majority by your definition and the answer you got back was a clear No.

Since then nothing has changed in the minds of Scottish voters, even the EU referendum has barely registered its time let it go.

I wouldn't dismiss the Tories their vote surged in all the areas Nats have to win over to carry a Yes vote. Opinion in these areas is clearly hardening for the Unionist side, to the extent that voting Tory is now acceptable again in huge parts of Scotland.

Another fantastic SNP success.
The Tories got less votes than they did even at the height of Thatchers unpopularity in 87. The only way Yes can be delivered is by winning over moderately centrist or centre left Labour voters. The reality is that 78% of voters rejected the Tories at the election in a crushing rejection of their policies and their values. It's testament to the irrelevance of the Tory party in Scotland that a massive rejection on that kind of scale is taken as a victory.

Finally, I'm not going to keep arguing about this but the parliament is pro independence, as was the last, because a majority of the elected representatives in that parliament back independence.
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Old 09-09-2016, 11:45
CoolSharpHarp
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The Tories got less votes than they did even at the height of Thatchers unpopularity in 87. The only way Yes can be delivered is by winning over moderately centrist or centre left Labour voters. The reality is that 78% of voters rejected the Tories at the election in a crushing rejection of their policies and their values. It's testament to the irrelevance of the Tory party in Scotland that a massive rejection on that kind of scale is taken as a victory.

Finally, I'm not going to keep arguing about this but the parliament is pro independence, as was the last, because a majority of the elected representatives in that parliament back independence.
As has been said on here recently (possibly by you), people vote SNP for various reasons and by no means just because they support independence. They also voted based on manifesto's, which did not pledge an independence referendum in this parliament and therefore this is not a pro-indy parliament.

I am going to keep saying that...
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