Originally Posted by CoolSharpHarp:
“So you'll chose the factually incorrect one, because it suits...”
“So you'll chose the factually incorrect one, because it suits...”
..when the cap fits, I suppose.
SNP Watch
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Originally Posted by ninman:
“That doesn't make it correct, because it wasn't the question on the ballot paper.”
“That doesn't make it correct, because it wasn't the question on the ballot paper.”
If you have a brick wall handy, might as well knock your head on it.
Originally Posted by PompeyBill:
“No, the one which most reasonable people see is what actually matters because, say it as many times as you want, the fact Scotland and Northern Ireland voted against matters. The Prime Minister knows it matters, the people who matter know it matters. DS, doesn't matter. You don't matter. I don't matter. The ones who will make the decisions, and discuss as regards this, know it matters.”
“No, the one which most reasonable people see is what actually matters because, say it as many times as you want, the fact Scotland and Northern Ireland voted against matters. The Prime Minister knows it matters, the people who matter know it matters. DS, doesn't matter. You don't matter. I don't matter. The ones who will make the decisions, and discuss as regards this, know it matters.”
So what people understand to be the truth is more important than the actual truth... Okeydoke.
Originally Posted by Impinger:
“If you have a brick wall handy, might as well knock your head on it.”
“If you have a brick wall handy, might as well knock your head on it.”
Enough of these shenanigans Impinger, I have offered a question your way and, by jingo, I shall have satisfaction in the way of an answer. Back up your claim man! Show me where Nicola Sturgeon has claimed to speak for everybody in Scotland.
Originally Posted by PompeyBill:
“Enough of these shenanigans Impinger, I have offered a question your way and, by jingo, I shall have satisfaction in the way of an answer. Back up your claim man! Show me where Nicola Sturgeon has claimed to speak for everybody in Scotland.”
“Enough of these shenanigans Impinger, I have offered a question your way and, by jingo, I shall have satisfaction in the way of an answer. Back up your claim man! Show me where Nicola Sturgeon has claimed to speak for everybody in Scotland.”
It's just shorthand... other people think it so it must be true.
Originally Posted by PompeyBill:
“Enough of these shenanigans Impinger, I have offered a question your way and, by jingo, I shall have satisfaction in the way of an answer. Back up your claim man! Show me where Nicola Sturgeon has claimed to speak for everybody in Scotland.”
“Enough of these shenanigans Impinger, I have offered a question your way and, by jingo, I shall have satisfaction in the way of an answer. Back up your claim man! Show me where Nicola Sturgeon has claimed to speak for everybody in Scotland.”
Which post are you talking about?
Originally Posted by Impinger:
“Which post are you talking about?”
“Which post are you talking about?”
Most to be honest, surely you remember what you posted. Let's try this one for instance;
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showp...postcount=1030
Originally Posted by Impinger:
“Which post are you talking about?”
“Which post are you talking about?”
Originally Posted by PompeyBill:
“Most to be honest, surely you remember what you posted. Let's try this one for instance;
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showp...postcount=1030”
“Most to be honest, surely you remember what you posted. Let's try this one for instance;
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showp...postcount=1030”
That was in reply to Smudge's Dad. No Sturgeon in there.
So, erm..
Originally Posted by Impinger:
“That was in reply to Smudge's Dad. No Sturgeon in there.
So, erm..”
“That was in reply to Smudge's Dad. No Sturgeon in there.
So, erm..”
The inference was clear, as was it here;
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showp...&postcount=979
PS, need to go and make a Balti, so won't be on for a while as I also have to build a little fort to protect myself from Ninman and his tearing apart of arguments. Have had fun
The idea of having a referendum on whether or not to stay in the UK if the vast majority of your electors votes contary to the result of another referendum has recently been described as a "nonsensical stunt" by SNP MP for Dumfries and Galloway Richard Arkless.
Originally Posted by woodrow:
“The idea of having a referendum on whether or not to stay in the UK if the vast majority of your electors votes contary to the result of another referendum has recently been described as a "nonsensical stunt" by SNP MP for Dumfries and Galloway Richard Arkless.”
“The idea of having a referendum on whether or not to stay in the UK if the vast majority of your electors votes contary to the result of another referendum has recently been described as a "nonsensical stunt" by SNP MP for Dumfries and Galloway Richard Arkless.
”
evidence?
Originally Posted by *Sparkle*:
“There isn't room for Dundee Airport to expand, and it's on a main rail line, and I think most locals would rather the money went on improving train services, especially opening up services to the local stations. However, they are a bit annoyed at the thought that it would be the Central Belt airports that would benefit from an expansion at Heathrow.
Of course, the SNP also claim to be full on environmentalists, so pushing for the expansion of any airport is a bit of a head-scratcher, but they seemed to get away with wanting to reduce airport duty, so their supporters can't be that fussed.
IMO, it's possible they were a No voter, but if that is the case, they didn't give it any thought, and only later were 'persuaded' by a Yes voter and didn't attempt any discussion of the pros and cons, just absorbed what they said. The sort of reasons given for 'switching' sound an awful lot like the reasons trotted out by Yes supporters who spend their time in the Independence echo chamber. They sound really clever, so long as no-one stops to think.
However, many of these recent 'converts' remind me of "Labour for Independence", who made the mistake of including known long-term SNP members in their promotional photos.
There will be some converts either way, and some of them will be the sort to be vocal, and they'll be the ones selected by radio phone-ins, so I'm sure many are genuine. However, it's such a predictable political ploy to present examples to the electorate that people can identify with. Hence we had so many groups of "niche demographic for independence". It is cynical, but it also proven to be effective, so it's not going to end any time soon and we should just expect it.
Let's face it, many Scottish Remain voters are annoyed at the Leave voters, and there are more Leave voters in England and Wales, so some of the anger at Leave voters translates into anger at the Rest of the UK (we have to ignore Ireland), which Independence campaigners will capitalise on. On the other hand, those who voted Yes last time are getting a small insight into the reality of the uncertainty and problems that might come from separation, and that some-times the 'scare stories' are legitimate warnings. That will make some of them question whether they should have listened more carefully to the warning they previously dismissed as lies.”
“There isn't room for Dundee Airport to expand, and it's on a main rail line, and I think most locals would rather the money went on improving train services, especially opening up services to the local stations. However, they are a bit annoyed at the thought that it would be the Central Belt airports that would benefit from an expansion at Heathrow.
Of course, the SNP also claim to be full on environmentalists, so pushing for the expansion of any airport is a bit of a head-scratcher, but they seemed to get away with wanting to reduce airport duty, so their supporters can't be that fussed.
IMO, it's possible they were a No voter, but if that is the case, they didn't give it any thought, and only later were 'persuaded' by a Yes voter and didn't attempt any discussion of the pros and cons, just absorbed what they said. The sort of reasons given for 'switching' sound an awful lot like the reasons trotted out by Yes supporters who spend their time in the Independence echo chamber. They sound really clever, so long as no-one stops to think.
However, many of these recent 'converts' remind me of "Labour for Independence", who made the mistake of including known long-term SNP members in their promotional photos.
There will be some converts either way, and some of them will be the sort to be vocal, and they'll be the ones selected by radio phone-ins, so I'm sure many are genuine. However, it's such a predictable political ploy to present examples to the electorate that people can identify with. Hence we had so many groups of "niche demographic for independence". It is cynical, but it also proven to be effective, so it's not going to end any time soon and we should just expect it.
Let's face it, many Scottish Remain voters are annoyed at the Leave voters, and there are more Leave voters in England and Wales, so some of the anger at Leave voters translates into anger at the Rest of the UK (we have to ignore Ireland), which Independence campaigners will capitalise on. On the other hand, those who voted Yes last time are getting a small insight into the reality of the uncertainty and problems that might come from separation, and that some-times the 'scare stories' are legitimate warnings. That will make some of them question whether they should have listened more carefully to the warning they previously dismissed as lies.”
^excellent summation there.
And I agree that Brexit will be a pointer to the problems of separation of a state within a larger unit and the UK isn't as entrenched in the EU as Scotland is to the UK.
Using the argument that leaving the EU will cost us billions is a bit daft as by inference leaving the UK will bring even more economic hardship on top of that.
Originally Posted by CharlieClown:
“That's a bit of a dogs dinner, but I'm sure somewhere in your dome it makes sense.
Scots majority chose to remain in UK we remained in UK no ifs no buts.
Bigger majority of Scots chose to remain in EU, not happening.
SNP turning every stone to give majority of Scots what they want, First Minister has been all round Europe gathering information from EU member states. First Minister wants everything on the table including the option of another referendum on independence.
First Minister giving Scotland a choice, giving Scotland a voice. If you want a hard Brexit within the UK then vote for that if your given the chance.
I wanted the chance of another Scottish referendum if Scotland voted with a majority to remain in the EU. Hey you know what, lucky for me a party offered just that in a manifesto. Guess what they won. What did you vote for in the Holyrood election, did you lose? Should we pander to the minority to suite you?”
“That's a bit of a dogs dinner, but I'm sure somewhere in your dome it makes sense.
Scots majority chose to remain in UK we remained in UK no ifs no buts.
Bigger majority of Scots chose to remain in EU, not happening.
SNP turning every stone to give majority of Scots what they want, First Minister has been all round Europe gathering information from EU member states. First Minister wants everything on the table including the option of another referendum on independence.
First Minister giving Scotland a choice, giving Scotland a voice. If you want a hard Brexit within the UK then vote for that if your given the chance.
I wanted the chance of another Scottish referendum if Scotland voted with a majority to remain in the EU. Hey you know what, lucky for me a party offered just that in a manifesto. Guess what they won. What did you vote for in the Holyrood election, did you lose? Should we pander to the minority to suite you?”
A bigger majority with a much lower turnout and voter base. So starting with the fact that we had a referendum which was in favour of remaining in the UK why should we now re run it based on a UK wide referendum where far fewer folk voted and knew it wasn't about Scotland.
Therefore I think you want us to pander to the minority to suit you as the SNP didn't get more than 50 percent of the votes cast which means that over 50 percent rejected their manifesto.
Originally Posted by Varys:
“Let's take the NHS - something close to my heart as I work in NHS Scotland and have worked in NHS England. In my particular area of expertise, there is an extensive programme of backroom privatisation going on in England. Instead of working FOR the NHS, you find yourself working for xx PLC, who are contracted TO the NHS. I don't want that for Scotland (and believe me, neither do you), and it isn't happening here. Thanks to the SNP (and I'm not a supporter or member obviously), I don't think it ever will. There's an aspect of one devolved issue I think no one will complain about.
Simon Stevens, chief executive of NHS England has been told by Theresa May the service is getting no more money. Renewing Trident, at a cost of £205 billion however, is a given.
I suspect you will not argue that faced with funding WMD or the NHS, most Scots will instinctively side with nuclear weapons on the Clyde. I predict more and more of this type of attitude to the world from a government which is to the right of Attila The Hun and more and more Scottish stomachs turning.
My stance on the issues of independence has not changed. My stance on whether or not I wish to face them has. I wish the vote had gone the other way, it didn't and we are all going to have to face 'UK Independence' (and I disagree, I think we do know what Brexit will look like, and it ain't pretty).
Given that, I would rather face these issues with our priorities, decided by our people (and by that I mean the people who have chosen to live here, not the Caucasian population only).”
“Let's take the NHS - something close to my heart as I work in NHS Scotland and have worked in NHS England. In my particular area of expertise, there is an extensive programme of backroom privatisation going on in England. Instead of working FOR the NHS, you find yourself working for xx PLC, who are contracted TO the NHS. I don't want that for Scotland (and believe me, neither do you), and it isn't happening here. Thanks to the SNP (and I'm not a supporter or member obviously), I don't think it ever will. There's an aspect of one devolved issue I think no one will complain about.
Simon Stevens, chief executive of NHS England has been told by Theresa May the service is getting no more money. Renewing Trident, at a cost of £205 billion however, is a given.
I suspect you will not argue that faced with funding WMD or the NHS, most Scots will instinctively side with nuclear weapons on the Clyde. I predict more and more of this type of attitude to the world from a government which is to the right of Attila The Hun and more and more Scottish stomachs turning.
My stance on the issues of independence has not changed. My stance on whether or not I wish to face them has. I wish the vote had gone the other way, it didn't and we are all going to have to face 'UK Independence' (and I disagree, I think we do know what Brexit will look like, and it ain't pretty).
Given that, I would rather face these issues with our priorities, decided by our people (and by that I mean the people who have chosen to live here, not the Caucasian population only).”
Talking of the NHS It is also something I have knowledge of and I work a lot with NHS staff in Scotland and some in England and I would agree that the Scottish NHS seems to run better but that's not to say the NHS in England is totally screwed up.
Now, the NHS here suffered from serious staff shortages in many key areas and relies heavily on agency workers, some of whom I know have left the NHS for the agencies because it earns them more.
Another serious question to ponder if we leave the UK is the elephant in the room of the NHS as we know it. It might not be viable for a small nation to continue with free healthcare at the point of contact. I know this will lead to calls of scaremongering but I often read on here that Scotland just wants to be a normal European country, well not one of our neighbours has free healthcare and we should consider the fact that we might just have to introduce health insurance and payments for our citizens too.
Originally Posted by anndra_w:
“She's got a pro independence majority in the parliament with the Greens.”
“She's got a pro independence majority in the parliament with the Greens.”
That's assuming the Greens will vote for it, or that their demands will not suit the SNP.
In coming months we will also see how SNP friendly the Greens are, they have already voted against the SNP twice so I wouldn't look to the Greens for automatic support.
Originally Posted by PompeyBill:
“(Sigh) Can somebody confirm how many times this needs to be explained? Help me somebody. I hate to think ill of somebody who obviously appreciates the KLF, so let me explain.
Scotland voted to remain in the UK in 2014, fine. However, that UK was part of EU.
Scotland voted to remain in the EU in 2016, the UK didn't.
So, what to do.
The SNP are looking to get the best deal for Scotland, and protect the interests of the people of Scotland. They're the Scottish government, that's their job, that's what they were voted in for.
If they don't get what they believe that is, then another independence vote has to be a possibility, to see what the Scottish people want to do. Be part of the UK, or be part of the EU outside of the UK.
If a way is found that Scotland can retain EU priviliges within the UK, there won't be any need for any further referendum.
Its simple.”
“(Sigh) Can somebody confirm how many times this needs to be explained? Help me somebody. I hate to think ill of somebody who obviously appreciates the KLF, so let me explain.
Scotland voted to remain in the UK in 2014, fine. However, that UK was part of EU.
Scotland voted to remain in the EU in 2016, the UK didn't.
So, what to do.
The SNP are looking to get the best deal for Scotland, and protect the interests of the people of Scotland. They're the Scottish government, that's their job, that's what they were voted in for.
If they don't get what they believe that is, then another independence vote has to be a possibility, to see what the Scottish people want to do. Be part of the UK, or be part of the EU outside of the UK.
If a way is found that Scotland can retain EU priviliges within the UK, there won't be any need for any further referendum.
Its simple.”
But it's clear that at this point in time what's best for Scotland is to wait and see, which is exactly what the SNP are actually doing. But at the same time they have to throw a bone to their supporters and so they are saying they will think about drafting some legislation just in case but there's absolutely no guarantee that it will even get published never mind enacted.
5 posts in a row covering ground already well trodden.
The FM has put forward what Scotland's position is regarding Brexit. If the PM chooses to ignore it, then it simply demonstrates how little regard she has for preserving what she calls the UK's "special union".
All down to the PM now...
The FM has put forward what Scotland's position is regarding Brexit. If the PM chooses to ignore it, then it simply demonstrates how little regard she has for preserving what she calls the UK's "special union".
All down to the PM now...
Originally Posted by Black Sheep:
“That's assuming the Greens will vote for it, or that their demands will not suit the SNP.
In coming months we will also see how SNP friendly the Greens are, they have already voted against the SNP twice so I wouldn't look to the Greens for automatic support.”
“That's assuming the Greens will vote for it, or that their demands will not suit the SNP.
In coming months we will also see how SNP friendly the Greens are, they have already voted against the SNP twice so I wouldn't look to the Greens for automatic support.”
Greens believe in devolving further powers to local communities in Scotland, so they wouldn't disagree with the SNP about Independence. They instead want to tackle the arguements that made YES lose in 2014 -new currency arrangement being one of them.
My view on this is that Yes Scotland (although it was a cross party group) felt like it was more dominated by SNP (policies) and the White Paper itself (despite having an independent body). So I would suggest a cross party support group with members from all (but tory) parties (that support indyref) coming together with an independent body, discussing all possible options for a second white paper (which they could all agree on?).
This whole minority gov thing will make SNP look at (some) Scottish Labour and Green members for their view of an independent Scotland in order to grow a cross party consensus on this matter
Originally Posted by Radio_Geek:
“evidence?”
“evidence?”
It was said in response to a suggestion by Tories from Dumfries and Galloway that there should be a referendum about Dumfries and Galloway remaining in the UK should Scotland becomes independent.
Maybe Monmouthshire will demand one if Wales becomes independent.
It only became part of Wales 'officially' in 70s
Originally Posted by Black Sheep:
“But it's clear that at this point in time what's best for Scotland is to wait and see, which is exactly what the SNP are actually doing. But at the same time they have to throw a bone to their supporters and so they are saying they will think about drafting some legislation just in case but there's absolutely no guarantee that it will even get published never mind enacted.”
“But it's clear that at this point in time what's best for Scotland is to wait and see, which is exactly what the SNP are actually doing. But at the same time they have to throw a bone to their supporters and so they are saying they will think about drafting some legislation just in case but there's absolutely no guarantee that it will even get published never mind enacted.”
I'd say the best thing the leader of the Scottish Government could do for Scotland is to get on with governing in Scotland, but she prefers smoke and mirrors and blaming Westminster. Imagine if she scrutinised her own efforts with the same enthusiasm she scrutinises Westminster? Imagine if she used some of that energy for using the powers already available to her to improve public services?
You almost forget that the Scottish Parliament already has all sorts of powers, and that its main function isn't supposed to be for creating division with the rest of the UK, or seeking out angles to push for independence.
Originally Posted by zarkov:
“5 posts in a row covering ground already well trodden.
The FM has put forward what Scotland's position is regarding Brexit. If the PM chooses to ignore it, then it simply demonstrates how little regard she has for preserving what she calls the UK's "special union".
All down to the PM now...”
“5 posts in a row covering ground already well trodden.
The FM has put forward what Scotland's position is regarding Brexit. If the PM chooses to ignore it, then it simply demonstrates how little regard she has for preserving what she calls the UK's "special union".
All down to the PM now...”
Retaining Scotlands position in the single market is what it's going to come down to here. This will be very uncomfortable for Ruth Davidson, in her interview with Gordon Brewer she was adamant that we should remain in the single market even if it meant conceding free movement EU citizens in exchange for this access. This puts her autonomy as Scottish leader on a collision course with the PM's hard Brexit.
Originally Posted by zarkov:
“5 posts in a row covering ground already well trodden.
The FM has put forward what Scotland's position is regarding Brexit. If the PM chooses to ignore it, then it simply demonstrates how little regard she has for preserving what she calls the UK's "special union".
All down to the PM now...”
“5 posts in a row covering ground already well trodden.
The FM has put forward what Scotland's position is regarding Brexit. If the PM chooses to ignore it, then it simply demonstrates how little regard she has for preserving what she calls the UK's "special union".
All down to the PM now...”
What is Scotlands position regarding Brexit?
Originally Posted by Radio_Geek:
“Greens believe in devolving further powers to local communities in Scotland, so they wouldn't disagree with the SNP about Independence. They instead want to tackle the arguements that made YES lose in 2014 -new currency arrangement being one of them.
My view on this is that Yes Scotland (although it was a cross party group) felt like it was more dominated by SNP (policies) and the White Paper itself (despite having an independent body). So I would suggest a cross party support group with members from all (but tory) parties (that support indyref) coming together with an independent body, discussing all possible options for a second white paper (which they could all agree on?).
This whole minority gov thing will make SNP look at (some) Scottish Labour and Green members for their view of an independent Scotland in order to grow a cross party consensus on this matter”
“Greens believe in devolving further powers to local communities in Scotland, so they wouldn't disagree with the SNP about Independence. They instead want to tackle the arguements that made YES lose in 2014 -new currency arrangement being one of them.
My view on this is that Yes Scotland (although it was a cross party group) felt like it was more dominated by SNP (policies) and the White Paper itself (despite having an independent body). So I would suggest a cross party support group with members from all (but tory) parties (that support indyref) coming together with an independent body, discussing all possible options for a second white paper (which they could all agree on?).
This whole minority gov thing will make SNP look at (some) Scottish Labour and Green members for their view of an independent Scotland in order to grow a cross party consensus on this matter”
I agree and disagree. I agree that it needs more cross party policies but I disagree that the SNP would let this happen. They will want to control almost all aspects of another move to separate from the UK.
Originally Posted by CharlieClown:
“Retaining Scotlands position in the single market is what it's going to come down to here. This will be very uncomfortable for Ruth Davidson, in her interview with Gordon Brewer she was adamant that we should remain in the single market even if it meant conceding free movement EU citizens in exchange for this access. This puts her autonomy as Scottish leader on a collision course with the PM's hard Brexit.”
“Retaining Scotlands position in the single market is what it's going to come down to here. This will be very uncomfortable for Ruth Davidson, in her interview with Gordon Brewer she was adamant that we should remain in the single market even if it meant conceding free movement EU citizens in exchange for this access. This puts her autonomy as Scottish leader on a collision course with the PM's hard Brexit.”
There are a few things that Nationalist supporters seem to have forgotten in their frothing support for another indyref tomorrow.
1. We don't know what Brexit will look like.
2. Just as they proclaimed in the last indyref that Scotlands bargaining position would start night and things would be negotiated they are now ignoring the same for the UK with the EU. If the Tories start with the highest possible demands then they have room to manoeuvre, if they start with the lowest then perhaps the UK gets a bad worse deal.
There are so many parallels and opposites between Indyref and Brexit it must be fair taxing some independence supporters brains to get around it.
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