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Old 17-10-2016, 14:09
anndra_w
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It is part of the EU, just as Manchester is part of EU, but crucially neither are Members, they are areas of a Member. Adherence to EU law does not make it a member state.

You are muddying the water by confusing two different things. Simply being in the EU does not make you necessarily a member of the EU, which Scotland isn't as the UK is the member.
The water is muddy because Scotland is not a region of the UK, it's a devolved nation within the UK. This fact does muddy the waters.
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Old 17-10-2016, 14:12
Adamsk
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Don't know but it like neverendum on it way soon just only if May block that as well.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1..._for_Scotland/
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Old 17-10-2016, 14:26
SmoggyTheTowny
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I'm not disputing that Scotland would have to negotiate membership in it's changed independent status but in it's status as a country within the UK it is a member of the EU.
It isn't! The home nations are not members. There is only one member, the UK. The home nations are part of the EU because they are part of a Member state, the UK.
{Please bear with me, I am trying something new here, I'm not used to using this forum system so it might go horribly wrong}

The majority of Scotland wants to stay and Sturgeon has to find out whether there's anyway to make that possible. It may be that the only option is by leaving the UK but all options must be explored. Either I doubt anyway would pay attention to your opinion one way or the other.
Which she had already done and ultimately got told it cannot happen. Even someone within the EU who is sympathetic to Scotland has stated that Scotland would have to leave and re-apply as a new member.
Ignoring this is not going to make it go away or mean Scotland will be given an favours.

It is well reported that the act of becoming Independent would remove Scotland from the EU, and Scotland will not be able to become a member whilst part of the UK as members need to be a sovereign state which Scotland will not be whilst it remains part of the UK.

When Greenland wanted to leave the EU despite the member state Denmark wishing to remain a way was found to achieve that. So we can say that solutions have been found in situations like this. Perhaps the only solution for Scotland will be the join as an independent state.
Greenland left the EU, but Denmark the member state remained. This is not even slightly comparable to this situation as the member state WILL BE LEAVING.
It was achieved because there was continuity with the Member state (Denmark) remained a member state to this day.
It did not involve a state that does not have member status being granted it like would need to happen with Scotland.

The only solution is for Scotland to join the EU as an Independent State, that has always been the only option.

I, like Sturgeon acknowledge that the days when Scotland could be overruled are rapidly coming to an. We're a devolved country within the UK and many of us don't recognise that the UK has a mandate to take us out the EU against our will. This may infuriate you but that's your personal issue.
Scotland is a partially devolved Nation which is ultimately under the control of the UK Government just like the rest of the UK. Having your own devolved Government doesn't mean you are no longer ultimately controlled by the UK Government.

The UK has the mandate on the EU because it is the UK Government that is the controlling party, and it is as the UK, not as devolved Nations, that we are part of the EU.

It doesn't infuriate me at all, because I actually understand the matter. It clearly infuriates you though, otherwise you would not be complaining about not being able to do things you were never in a position to do.
It isn't the choice or the fault of the UK Government that you cannot choose for yourself to be in the EU, that is not a choice that can be made. You need to accept this instead of getting would up about things that cannot change no matter how much you complain about it.

You aren't qualified to make that statement and the leaders of Scotland's political parties, SNP, Labour, Green and Lib Dem all have been keen to find ways for Scotland's EU membership to be protected if possible.
None of those are qualified, because none of those have the power to do that.
Saying something is possible because you refuse to accept the reality does not make it a possibility.
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Old 17-10-2016, 14:33
SmoggyTheTowny
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If the SNP can negotiate access to the single market for Scotland or some kind of special relationship for Scotland within the EU would you oppose this on the ground it was a UK wide decision? Can you not see that from Scotland's perspective there is an issue here given the strength of support for EU membership?
The EU have already stated that they are not going to get involved in the internal matters of member states. Just because the SNP claim that they can get Scotland a special deal in allowing them to bypass the process of becoming a member does not mean it is possible.

Perhaps instead of fooling yourself that Scotland would be given unlikely special treatment you should accept that Scotland would have to do as every other Country that wanted to join the EU had to do and actually complete the entry process.
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Old 17-10-2016, 14:33
VicnBob
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Because your ignoring the fact that both Sturgeon and McGuinness are actively seeking ways to attempt to protect Scottish and Northern Irish membership. Give that these countries are devolved their situation within the EU is more complex because they are semi autonomous nations within one member state. The best thing that could happen for the unity of the UK would be for a special deal to be struck to accommodate the nations which don't want to lose their EU membership but given London's approach to Scotland in particular that's probably a non starter.
That is highly unlikely..... how would London influence negatively whether Scotland could become EU members and still be part of the UK? I am curious why you think Scotland would massively benefit by being a member?
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Old 17-10-2016, 14:39
SmoggyTheTowny
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The water is muddy because Scotland is not a region of the UK, it's a devolved nation within the UK. This fact does muddy the waters.
But in terms of EU membership, it means just as little as a City, a street or even a singular property.

The waters are clear, it is only people who stick their head in the sand, refusing to accept what is already known, that are muddying it.
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Old 17-10-2016, 14:45
SmoggyTheTowny
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Don't know but it like neverendum on it way soon just only if May block that as well.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1..._for_Scotland/
Why would May do anything? It is not in anyone else's interest to allow Scotland to ignore a democratic result just because they don't like the result and are only interested in what they want?

May also has a responsibility to honour the wishes of the majority, which includes a lot of people in Scotland in delivering what they voted for.
The majority of the UK voted to leave and that should be respected by all.
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Old 17-10-2016, 14:57
anndra_w
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But in terms of EU membership, it means just as little as a City, a street or even a singular property.

The waters are clear, it is only people who stick their head in the sand, refusing to accept what is already known, that are muddying it.
Again that's a silly shortsighted view. Scotland has made it be known that if it votes to leave the UK it would seek to remain a part of the European Union. There has been talk of Scotland being kept in a "holding pen" as it negotiates independence from the UK and the UK negotiates its withdrawal from the EU in order to make the transition to independent member state as effortless as possible. So whatever Scotland position is in Europe it is not just a part of the UK. There is an awareness across Europe of Scotland's position and situation that do mark it out as different.
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Old 17-10-2016, 14:59
anndra_w
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Why would May do anything? It is not in anyone else's interest to allow Scotland to ignore a democratic result just because they don't like the result and are only interested in what they want?

May also has a responsibility to honour the wishes of the majority, which includes a lot of people in Scotland in delivering what they voted for.
The majority of the UK voted to leave and that should be respected by all.
Because she might have an eye to making sure the UK Union has a future and not want to do anything that hasten the break of the United Kingdom. Of course, she's a nationalistic Tory so it's very unlikely she'll be able to help herself from proving that Britain just doesn't work anymore.
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:07
VicnBob
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Because she might have an eye to making sure the UK Union has a future and not want to do anything that hasten the break of the United Kingdom. Of course, she's a nationalistic Tory so it's very unlikely she'll be able to help herself from proving that Britain just doesn't work anymore.
lol, said by someone who supports SNP, who couldn't be more nationalistic if they tried
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:17
woodrow
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Again that's a silly shortsighted view. Scotland has made it be known that if it votes to leave the UK it would seek to remain a part of the European Union. There has been talk of Scotland being kept in a "holding pen" as it negotiates independence from the UK and the UK negotiates its withdrawal from the EU in order to make the transition to independent member state as effortless as possible. So whatever Scotland position is in Europe it is not just a part of the UK. There is an awareness across Europe of Scotland's position and situation that do mark it out as different.
BIB
Yes there is. And that awareness is that a country can apply for membership of the EU if, and only if, it meets the criteria for said membership. Scotland does not. And will not, meet that criteria in any way, shape or form for the foreseeable future. No amount of wishful thinking will change that fact.
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:18
Impinger
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Because your ignoring the fact that both Sturgeon and McGuinness are actively seeking ways to attempt to protect Scottish and Northern Irish membership. Give that these countries are devolved their situation within the EU is more complex because they are semi autonomous nations within one member state. The best thing that could happen for the unity of the UK would be for a special deal to be struck to accommodate the nations which don't want to lose their EU membership but given London's approach to Scotland in particular that's probably a non starter.
The Brussels approach is the biggest non-starter. Scotland (in the form of Sturgeon) found out during her hasty visit to Brussels after the referendum that Brussels:

* Will not get involved with domestic affairs;
* Will not deal with constituent parts of member states
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:24
anndra_w
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BIB
Yes there is. And that awareness is that a country can apply for membership of the EU if, and only if, it meets the criteria for said membership. Scotland does not. And will not, meet that criteria in any way, shape or form for the foreseeable future. No amount of wishful thinking will change that fact.
So while the EU has said there's no great obstacle to Scottish EU membership you know better. Ok.
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:25
Majlis
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So while the EU has said there's no great obstacle to Scottish EU membership you know better. Ok.
Has the EU said they are going to change their rules to allow Scotland in?- link?
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:33
VicnBob
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So while the EU has said there's no great obstacle to Scottish EU membership you know better. Ok.
Still curious why Scotland wants to be a member of the EU? Your exports to Europe are only 19% of your total (excluding oil and gas).
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:33
anndra_w
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:34
PompeyBill
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Has the EU said they are going to change their rules to allow Scotland in?- link?
This is probably what Anndra is referring to. Of course, Scotland would have to be independent first, which I am fully on board with;

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/po...agrees-8796253
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:34
anndra_w
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Still curious why Scotland wants to be a member of the EU? Your exports to Europe are only 19% of your total (excluding oil and gas).
For me it's about working together with your neighbours in a constructive way.
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:44
woodrow
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All of those links are on the presumption that Scotland meets the criteria of a member state. As it stands Scotland does not and will not for a long time to come and then of course there will not be any "great obstacle" to joining.
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:46
VicnBob
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For me it's about working together with your neighbours in a constructive way.
You have much closer neighbours that buy 65% of your exports, that you want to divorce yourselves from.
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:46
anndra_w
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All of those links are on the presumption that Scotland meets the criteria of a member state. As it stands Scotland does not and will not for a long time to come and then of course there will not be any "great obstacle" to joining.
No where does it say that.
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:47
woodrow
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This is probably what Anndra is referring to. Of course, Scotland would have to be independent first, which I am fully on board with;

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/po...agrees-8796253
Discuss with Nicola will begin with "when will your central bank be up and running in accordance with EU criteria?"
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:48
woodrow
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No where does it say that.
And nowhere it doesn't say that. If you think Scotland will get fast tracked without meeting all the criteria for membership then you truly are deluded and you need to get to a Doctors sharpish.
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:50
PompeyBill
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You have much closer neighbours that buy 65% of your exports, that you want to divorce yourselves from.
To be honest though, look at this thread. If this is an example of 'neighbours', you can see why we'd want to move away. Our neighbours seem to be the noisy ones. You know the ones, loud, think they own the street, have a couple of old bangers on the driveway which they rev up and to hell with the disturbance, and have members of the family running roughshod over the rest of the street, threatening the quieter neighbours with 'trouble' if they speak up too much,

That type of neighbour.
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Old 17-10-2016, 15:51
PompeyBill
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Discuss with Nicola will begin with "when will your central bank be up and running in accordance with EU criteria?"
Blimey, didn't know we had some EU negotiators on Digital Spy. Shouldn't you be doing something more important?
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