But your arguing over he haw. I did say that I agreed with the fact of this and that men should not be punished for merely being Gay but if it is illegal now to have underage sex then they should not be pardoned for it.

I'm talking about consensual sex based on the current age limit that currently applies today.

You really do seem to put too much thought into some of the things you reply to in order to solicit some kind of reaction that's not there at times.

I think the Saxons having fought a battle 300 miles away and marched back to the south coast to fight another might have had something to do with it but in common with those Saxons I think the Scottish electorate might be getting a wee bit tired of it all too.

If the SNP really thought they could win another Indyref they would no doubt take the vote and get the Referendum.

I simply don't think they have the appetite for it right now given that support is down and the FM stated she wants to see polls being consistently above 60%. If she lost she would no doubt have to go and where would this leave the SNP?

I find it strange that you seem unable to use the quote system and somehow end up doing it the wrong way round from everyone else.

Having said that I think it would be better just to get the whole indyref 2 out of the way, don't you?

As for the rest of your wee insults, no, I'm Scottish and will be sticking with Scotland until I die regardless of where we go, I just don't hate my fellow Scots as much as some Nationalists seem to do.

Will you be moving to Scotland if we get independence then?

But to those in the groups that wanted Brexit the difference wasn't undeniable.

You dismissing people's beliefs in order to justify your own, however misguided we believe they might be they had genuine reasons to feel that way and if folk dismissed your belief in Scotlands independence you would be shouting at them.

I did say the two groups were similar in their aims and beliefs I didn't say a member of UKIP was exactly the same as an SNP one.

If Scotland had broadly the same relationship with rUK, that the UK has with the EU, then I doubt we'd even be discussing this topic.

Not all those who fought at Stanford Bridge fought at Hastings. Some went home and others joined. The battle itself say the Saxons having all the advantages including one heck of a slope for the Normans to attack up. If they'd kept their heads there's every chance they'd have won. Perhaps overconfidence at having just won a major victory had a bit to do with it.

I'd sugest you check the polls bearing in mind that those are figures that don't adjust for don't knows. One of them has a figure of 51% for the SNP once they're removed, as is common practice.

Indyref2 can only be deployed when Holyrood have a firm idea, of the two paths Scotland would be taking, as per my comment above.

Otherwise, baw faced Brexiteer Ruthy D and Wee Willie Rennie, will promise everything under the sun.

I have lost a little respect for you Black Sheep because of this post. You generally are a fair person, but this post isn't.

I didn't vote to leave the EU, but I recognise that the majority did (however misguided they were) including people in Scotland, and their wishes should be far more important than a small number of people who wish to leave the UK because they didn't get what they want.

It hasn't even been determined that Scotland will even leave the UK, because the people have not been asked that just like they were not asked in they wanted Scotland to be part of the EU.

The delay would not even for anything credible, it would only be to see if the highly unrealistic unlikely scenarios the SNP have come up out of their inflated sense of importance are possible. Scenarios that require a lot of co-operation for little or no benefit.

Why would the EU agree to exempt Scotland from not only the precedents surrounding entry to the EU and becoming recognised member of the Union, but also ignore the precedents set regarding state secession and recognition.

Allowing Scotland to enter the EU without completing the formal entry process would upset Countries that currently or previously had to complete this process to become a member? Why is Scotland so special that they get this treatment when others were not?

The argument that Scotland could be remain in the EU by being recognised as the successor state to the UK is a joke. It really is a claim that is so far fetched that it really don't warrant discussion.

Even the argument that Scotland and the rest of the UK would become two new states sharing the UK previous status equally is more likely, despite it also being an unlikely outcome itself.

If anything, if the UK were to cease to exist, it is far more likely the much larger part made up of England, Wales and Northern Ireland would be recognised as the successor because there would be far more continuity between that and the UK in terms of make up when compared to Scotland.

People are acting as if Scotland would get recognised as the successor and keep the UK's membership out of spite against the UK on the EU's part, that was not going to happen as this is a legal process.

That's irregardless. At that point the Brexit campaign adopted the language of a credible campaign that was arguing against a real democratic deficit. They were dishonest and people who compare the two unions are dishonest with an agenda or deluded.


I don't have to justify my belief about a democratic deficit because it's measurable and no ones denying it's existence. Brexiteers cannot do the same because the EU never had anything like the control over the UK that the UK had and has over Scotland. Regardless of whether Brexiteers believed there was a democratic deficit in the UK or not the two Unions, UK and EU cannot be compared because they are so vastly differently. Any Brexiteer who believed they are similar is ignorant and uninformed.


The two groups are opposite in aims and beliefs. One group does not support the UK and aimed to joined the EU as an independent member whilst the other is British Nationalist and sought to leave and isolate itself from the EU. Their beliefs are opposite, UKIP supporters are insular and conservative, independence supporters are outward looking, tend to be left wing and are the most pro-immigration group in Scotland. There's a section of No voters, those who would describe themselves as British first and foremost, loyalists even, who are much more similar in aim and belief to UKIP than Yes supporters.

Oh dear, I'm afraid you're one to block. Your ignorance is not good for the blood pressure.

I'm ignorant because I disagree with your one-sided opinion?

It would help your blood pressure if you did not see yourself and Scotland as a god damn victim all of the time.

I think the core of the Army fought in both Battles.

To be honest like a lot of Scots I'm getting tired of the endless talk of a new trigger for a new referendum and it really is becoming like a neverendum. All the SNP supporters here talk about is a new referendum or what will happen to Scotland when the referendum is won, we will take the UKs place in the EU and everyone will do our exact bidding.

SNP supporters don't talk about SNP policies, SNP, politicians or even what they do and don't like about their chosen party. It's a single minded crusade to get another indyref at all costs.

Have they actually brought anything new to the table? NO, it's the same old tired rhetoric that lost the last Indyref which they are dragging out now to try and persuade us that we need to be independent again just two years after the last time.

I get why it has to be done but it does get weary.

So if 51 percent of folk really do support independence then let's put that to the test as soon as possible, get it over with and get on with things. If the SNP lose then the new leader can start again with some fresh reasons to leave the UK.

So a few questions for you.

What currency will we be using?

Will we be in the EU or out of it?

How much will the set up costs be?

What will the question be?

Given the economic situation what cuts would you make or which taxes would you raise when the Barnett formula is withdrawn?

Who will pay the pensions of Scots, the rUK or Scotland?

How much debt would we have over and above the Barnett deficit?

None of these questions have changed in 2 years and not one SNP,politician seems to have done anything to address them, so why would you expect a different result from the same voters?

I give up, please continue to write 10000 words to justify why people in these groups didn't do similar things for perceived similar reasons.

It doesn't matter their political stance, all I said was they had certain similarities in wanting their country to be uncoupled from a political entity they believe doesn't serve them well.

I don't agree with leaving the EU I think it's economically detrimental but I can put myself in the position of those who think the EU is big government and ruling from Brussels and understand what they feel.

As I said, many similarities between the groups.

In less than 100 words: you claimed the two unions were alike and that is demonstrably nonsense.

here's my opinion - based on facts & hunches
a Scottish currency pegged to something other than £Sterling - £ & € likely able to be used
IN or door left open to enter easily - depends on when UK leaves
very affordable & written off by % share of UK assets
much the same as last time
none, just collect all that's due - there is scope to tax the top earners/landowners a bit more, close loopholes (which UK should do as well)
you pay into UK system, UK gives you the pension as UK citizenship couldn't be cancelled
none, ZERO (initially)
are you sure

Of course I didn't claim any such thing. Please quote where I said this.

I said the two groups that wanted to leave the larger political entity were similar in their aims.

What you went on to do was write tomes about how they couldn't possibly be similar, when clearly they are.

The EU and UK are similar in the way that apples and tomatoes are both fruits.

Sigh, way to prove my point

except of course first line was a wind up - & as we can see from brexit nobody will fully spoon feed you with all the info beforehand from any side with 100% certainty

Scottish Currency or £ pegged to Sterling are likely initially, € if and when Scotland joins the EU.


Out and needing to fulfil entry process. UK leaving has no bearing because it is a complete fantasy that Scotland would be the successor the UK and inherit membership.


I think you are underestimating the costs and overestimating the worth of the assets.


Good plan, make the rich plug the gap, that won't have them leaving Scotland in their droves leaving an even bigger financial gap. Taxing those that have is something that will never work.
Being realistic there will need to be across the board cuts and possibly selling of assets to free up the cash value.

This is just being realistic, paying for something yourself will always cost more than if you are sharing the cost.


So where exactly is the money going to come from to pay for the creation of everything that is needed? Most of it would be needed quickly.


I fully expect that the result will be that different. The economics of Independence haven't changed, the only thing that has changed is that the UK has voted to leave the EU. Scotland would have left the EU anyway, it was the case in 2014 and still is the case now.

Indeed the EU didn't even figure prominently in folks reasons for voting No.

who'd peg to a currency in freefall? & € after a number of years if Scotland chose to enter mechanism
not what EU is indicating
on what basis do you say that?
entering independence debt free it would be a mixture of % share of UK assets & loans
Scotland leaving the EU would be a stupid move in these times & Scotland being a member would draw in jobs from companies vacating UK -- & lots has changed, all the promises from better together have been found false, reasons to keep UK together proven dishonest

I think I will leave the reply to someone with more knowledge of this than we have.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-37744130

Seems like he disagrees with your premise.

If we're taking out loans we won't be debt free, and given the budget deficit and EU borrowing rules coupled with set up costs, and the need to float our currency on the markets your looking at a decade of extreme austerity on the public services coupled with privatisation of all those state assets.

That by the way isn't my opinion it's the opinion of SNP MP John Kerevan.

The freefall won't be permanent and it sure will be more stable than a new currency or one used unofficially.


What indication would that be? You surely can't be talking the 'no great obstacle' comment that some Nats have taken, as usual, to mean Scotland will get special treatment.


The basis that the projected start up costs were massively underestimated, and that you are massively overestimating the value of any assets you receive.


What assets do you expect to get if you plan to be debt free? Why would you be given a share of the UK assets when you refuse to take a share of the debt that you are partly responsible?


I agree that leaving the EU is a stupid move, even for all of the EU's sins (which are only going to get worse) the UK leaving the EU at this time is going to be damaging.

Any countries seeking to relocate would not move to Scotland, they would go to the safety of EU Members in mainland Europe, not Scotland. A country that is just as determined as the UK, if not more, to screw it's economy up by leaving the UK and the EU.

It really is funny seeing you Nationalists constantly say that Better Together lied whilst continuing to believe the crap the SNP says.

Oh and you are doing exactly what Black Sheep said, you are just repeating the same arguments that failed in 2014, and will fail again in any future referendum because people are not going to be swayed by the same argument if they weren't before.