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Old 10-12-2016, 06:00
Black Sheep
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We had a nationwide opinion poll in May. The FM and the Government she leads, won it quite handsomely.

She can call a referendum when she likes. The losers don't get to dictate the timetable.
Now you are being daft, the election was no time a single issue one. It seems that on every subject here folk hark back to the SNP manifesto to justify it.

People didn't not vote SNP in May solely on independence grounds, and btw of your using that as an opinion poll the majority of Scots didn't vote for independence then either.
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Old 10-12-2016, 06:05
Black Sheep
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You still have not explained who these Scottish elite are?

Perhaps my job does mean I am responsible for policies that affect millions of people!
I rather doubt your responsible for the policy itself, possibly implementing them because unless your claiming to be a government minister I doubt it. I think I did explain who I thought these folk were above.
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Old 10-12-2016, 06:18
Black Sheep
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Meanwhile back in the real worl the Tories and SNP work together on Tax issues.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...-edge-towards/

This can only be good for the Scottish economy and indicates that these two parties are more aligned in Scotland than any other two.
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Old 10-12-2016, 08:18
anndra_w
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Meanwhile back in the real worl the Tories and SNP work together on Tax issues.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...-edge-towards/

This can only be good for the Scottish economy and indicates that these two parties are more aligned in Scotland than any other two.
The greens and SNP are aligned on constitutional issues this indicates that these two parties are more aligned than any other two. It sounds daft when I say it too.
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Old 10-12-2016, 08:45
*Sparkle*
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Most of the public and senior SNP types don't want another referendum soon. The public don't want it because it's disruptive, and we'd like the government to pay some attention to the day job, and senior SNP types don't want one now, because they know they'll lose. They just have to tease those of their supporters who are eager for another referendum to keep them on-side. It's important to maintain the perception that they are entitled to a referendum, and that Independence is somehow a certainty at some point - but without actually testing this.

Until the SNP come up with a decent proposal on core issues such as currency, people won't be convinced. Vague campaigning avoids the need for scrutiny of the idea of independence, whereas actual campaigning will mean challenges and tricky questions, which will require an improvement to last time. Claiming "they can't stop us" shows either an ignorance of the issue, or a presumption the audience doesn't, and less people will fall for it next time.

Of course, mentioning the subject every now and then isn't just about throwing a bone to the faithful, it's a convenient ploy to avoid having to talk about the more pressing issues, such as the figures on education.
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Old 10-12-2016, 09:41
pedrok
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I rather doubt your responsible for the policy itself, possibly implementing them because unless your claiming to be a government minister I doubt it. I think I did explain who I thought these folk were above.
We won't get into what I am responsible for, but you still have not told anyone who these Scottish elite are. You have posted some words, but that is it.

So who are they? It is you who claim there is a Scottish elite, so surely you must know who they are.

Don't tell me you are just posting nonsense!
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Old 10-12-2016, 09:43
pedrok
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Meanwhile back in the real worl the Tories and SNP work together on Tax issues.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...-edge-towards/

This can only be good for the Scottish economy and indicates that these two parties are more aligned in Scotland than any other two.
I think you will find that the SNP are aligned with a number of other parties this week, the budget will be introduced on the 15th. Think that is called responsible government!
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Old 10-12-2016, 10:49
zarkov
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Now you are being daft, the election was no time a single issue one. It seems that on every subject here folk hark back to the SNP manifesto to justify it.

People didn't not vote SNP in May solely on independence grounds, and btw of your using that as an opinion poll the majority of Scots didn't vote for independence then either.
There you go again. Trying desperately to set your own personal terms and conditions.

An independence minded party won the election. There is an independence minded majority in the Parliament.

Those who lost the election do not get to set the terms going forward. Unlucky.
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Old 10-12-2016, 10:53
Black Sheep
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The greens and SNP are aligned on constitutional issues this indicates that these two parties are more aligned than any other two. It sounds daft when I say it too.
Im thinking general taxation policies here.

The Greens are of course against APD reduction as they believe that it would be bad for the environment.

SNP and Tory Taxation policies are almost the same.
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Old 10-12-2016, 10:55
Black Sheep
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We won't get into what I am responsible for, but you still have not told anyone who these Scottish elite are. You have posted some words, but that is it.

So who are they? It is you who claim there is a Scottish elite, so surely you must know who they are.

Don't tell me you are just posting nonsense!
Nope, the Scottish elite are the equivalent to the Westminster elite. The SNP supporters like to bandy this about and I think the term applies equally to the top SNP elite as well.
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:08
*Sparkle*
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I think you will find that the SNP are aligned with a number of other parties this week, the budget will be introduced on the 15th. Think that is called responsible government!
It's responsible government when the SNP does it. It's "getting in bed with the Tories" or even quisling, anti-Scottish behaviour when other parties work together to campaign for the benefits of Scotland staying in the UK.
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:18
Black Sheep
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There you go again. Trying desperately to set your own personal terms and conditions.

An independence minded party won the election. There is an independence minded majority in the Parliament.

Those who lost the election do not get to set the terms going forward. Unlucky.
No. I'm sorry, its you that are desperately trying to use an election for a different purpose that it was intended. You seem to equate a vote for the SNP to be a vote for Independence, which is clearly not true.

There may well be an independent minded majority in Holyrood but that doesn't automatically translate into an independence majority in Scotland. Anyone with a modicum of common sense can see this as the SNP clearly had a larger majority in 2014 and lost the independence referendum overwhelmingly by the standards of any vote since.

Now, I'm not against another referendum but you would agree that certain things just might have to happen first.

1. The people of Scotland want one. No point in having it if the result is that Nicola Sturgeon just resigns when she loses. She knows this too, you obviously don't.

2. The Government of Scotland want one. This relies on the above.

3. Someone actually does some planing for it. Theres no indication that this is being done and therefore theres no indication that people would vote for any of it as there is no new White Paper or separation plan.

This is why I believe there will be no new Indyref anytime soon and as much as you wish for it, it simply cannot take place until it would result in a very confident outcome for the SNP.

At this point in time that outcome is far less than confident and no FM is going to risk their job on it. After all, shes not qualified to do anything else, perhaps Westminster would appeal to her?
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:20
Black Sheep
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It's responsible government when the SNP does it. It's "getting in bed with the Tories" or even quisling, anti-Scottish behaviour when other parties work together to campaign for the benefits of Scotland staying in the UK.
I think you've hit the nail in the right place there
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:24
CoolSharpHarp
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There you go again. Trying desperately to set your own personal terms and conditions.

An independence minded party won the election. There is an independence minded majority in the Parliament.

Those who lost the election do not get to set the terms going forward. Unlucky.
Neither of which currently have a mandate for a referendum though....
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:34
zarkov
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No. I'm sorry, its you that are desperately trying to use an election for a different purpose that it was intended. You seem to equate a vote for the SNP to be a vote for Independence, which is clearly not true.

There may well be an independent minded majority in Holyrood but that doesn't automatically translate into an independence majority in Scotland. Anyone with a modicum of common sense can see this as the SNP clearly had a larger majority in 2014 and lost the independence referendum overwhelmingly by the standards of any vote since.

Now, I'm not against another referendum but you would agree that certain things just might have to happen first.

1. The people of Scotland want one. No point in having it if the result is that Nicola Sturgeon just resigns when she loses. She knows this too, you obviously don't.

2. The Government of Scotland want one. This relies on the above.

3. Someone actually does some planing for it. Theres no indication that this is being done and therefore theres no indication that people would vote for any of it as there is no new White Paper or separation plan.

This is why I believe there will be no new Indyref anytime soon and as much as you wish for it, it simply cannot take place until it would result in a very confident outcome for the SNP.

At this point in time that outcome is far less than confident and no FM is going to risk their job on it. After all, shes not qualified to do anything else, perhaps Westminster would appeal to her?
The FM will put forward a bill when she and her Government decide to do so.

They do not have to meet any pre-set conditions or triggers as desperately being suggested by losers.

They won the election, they have a mandate, they will use it when ready.
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:52
CoolSharpHarp
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The FM will put forward a bill when she and her Government decide to do so.

They do not have to meet any pre-set conditions or triggers as desperately being suggested by losers.

They won the election, they have a mandate, they will use it when ready.
So let's forget Sturgeon's once in a lifetime statement, forget her triple lock for another referendum and now also forget that she said there's got to be strong and consistent evidence of a change in public opinion.
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:02
Black Sheep
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The FM will put forward a bill when she and her Government decide to do so.

They do not have to meet any pre-set conditions or triggers as desperately being suggested by losers.

They won the election, they have a mandate, they will use it when ready.
With that you have confirmed that you don't seem to live in the same reality as the rest of us. Perhaps you should just stick to the Nat websites, rational thought seems to be lacking there too.

There wont be another Referendum in the next 2 years and more than likely in the lifetime of this Parliament.
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:06
pedrok
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Nope, the Scottish elite are the equivalent to the Westminster elite. The SNP supporters like to bandy this about and I think the term applies equally to the top SNP elite as well.
And who are these elite? I am still waiting on you explain who they are.
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:07
pedrok
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It's responsible government when the SNP does it. It's "getting in bed with the Tories" or even quisling, anti-Scottish behaviour when other parties work together to campaign for the benefits of Scotland staying in the UK.
Except that isn't true. You do realise that there was a Labour for Independence movement.
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:08
pedrok
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I think you've hit the nail in the right place there
Well, not really
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:16
zarkov
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With that you have confirmed that you don't seem to live in the same reality as the rest of us. Perhaps you should just stick to the Nat websites, rational thought seems to be lacking there too.
I really can't imagine the reality you live in. Every single day eagerly searching out a story you can put an SNP bad spin on. Fairly tragic.

The reality of the situation is as I have set out above. You don't like it? Tough.
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:29
CoolSharpHarp
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Except that isn't true. You do realise that there was a Labour for Independence movement.
Except it is true and Labour were labelled as Red Tories because they agreed with the Tories on the constitutional issue.

Labour for independence.... did anybody buy that as a genuine organisation.
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:52
*Sparkle*
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Labour for independence.... did anybody buy that as a genuine organisation.
Is that the group that released a promotional photo in which at least half of them turned out to be known long-standing supporters of the SNP?

There was a rational to having multiple groups with a variation of xxxx for Indie, as it gives everyone something to identify with, and gives the (sometimes false) impression that it's a natural move for them to support Indy and to support the movement. However, it was still a cynical ploy and getting angry at those who didn't fall for it isn't helpful.
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Old 10-12-2016, 13:05
zarkov
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It is fairly clear that the surge in the SNP vote coinciding with that of the Labour vote falling off a cliff suggests that 'Labour for Independence' was the real deal.

That some of their dwindling support regurgitate the conspiracy theories with a real 'head in sand' denial, is one of the reasons Scottish Labour are at their lowest ever ebb.
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Old 10-12-2016, 13:34
pedrok
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Except it is true and Labour were labelled as Red Tories because they agreed with the Tories on the constitutional issue.

Labour for independence.... did anybody buy that as a genuine organisation.
Except it isn't. There is a world of difference between two political parties coming to an agreement in order to pass a piece of legislation, which happens every single day in Parliament, and political parties joining forces to run a campaign.
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