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#2401 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central London
Posts: 43,691
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Quote:
The only reason May hasn't already done it is because she wants to be sure that it will be reciprocal across the rest of the EU. That is all. And I think that's a wise thing for her to do. Yet Sturgeon is huffing and puffing over it as if she can't see that, and if she really can't, then she's not fit to be a FM.
As I say it is a rare occasion for me to agree with Nicola Sturgeon . |
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#2402 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,790
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Sturgeon is asking as there are a number of EU nationals living in Scotland who also want this question answered.
I see the Herald is reporting a poll that claims that a majority of Scots don't want another referendum in 2017. Which is just as well, as there is hee haw chance of a referendum in 2017. Quote:
I know she wants reciprocal agreements and I understand that, but I just think with the way the EU are behaving we could show ourselves to be better people and say look stuff you and what you will and wont talk about we will guarantee those here their rights , it might embarrass the EU powers that be to do the same, it might not but we come out of it looking far better than they do and it would ease a lot of peoples worries immediately.
As I say it is a rare occasion for me to agree with Nicola Sturgeon . Perhaps Sturgeon should be lobbying Brussels over the issue instead of huffing and puffing at the UK PM. Mind you, the UK PM direction is more suited to her agenda I suppose. |
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#2403 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,160
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I hear you both, but, it is actually Brussels that is the sticking point with this with its ruling out any agreement on anything until A50 is pressed.
Perhaps Sturgeon should be lobbying Brussels over the issue instead of huffing and puffing at the UK PM. Mind you, the UK PM direction is more suited to her agenda I suppose. |
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#2404 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,790
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Sturgeon won't utter a word in condemnation of anything to do with the EU as she still apparently believes that they take any notice of her ramblings and second that they are going to offer her a special deal no one else will get.
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#2405 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,088
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I hear you both, but, it is actually Brussels that is the sticking point with this with its ruling out any agreement on anything until A50 is pressed.
Perhaps Sturgeon should be lobbying Brussels over the issue instead of huffing and puffing at the UK PM. Mind you, the UK PM direction is more suited to her agenda I suppose. Brexit, and all that it involves, is a UK issue. |
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#2406 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Fort William
Posts: 22,270
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You know fine well that anytime Sturgeon has went to Brussels she has been slated for involving herself in things that are nothing to do with her!
Brexit, and all that it involves, is a UK issue. |
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#2407 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,282
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I heard a joke today that Orkeny Isle and Shetland want too now back Scottish independence.So they could have there own independent from Scotland and England, cuase they feel they are more like Norway because of their history being link once to Scandinavia and the way they voted.
Next the Isle of Gernsy will want be independent to join France cuase it is close too France. |
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#2408 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,282
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I also heard just a year ago Jersey wanted join France too what a joke
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#2409 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 13,457
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Scotland, at the moment, is still part of the UK, so Sturgeon is looking after the interests of Scotland, as part of the UK. Seems she's doing her job properly.
Doing her job properly would be to recognise both a U.K. Wide and Scotland wide referendum result and concentrate on what's best for us bearing both of these in mind rather than use one UK wide result to justify another stab at a failed Scotland wide result. Folk like me who thinks it's economically bad to leave the EU don't think that leaving the UK will make us all better off, in fact until we see the results of Brexit such a move would in all probability make us much worse off. |
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#2410 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Not leaving the EU (quite yet)
Posts: 300
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Given all i've read (written by you) you'd have Scotland go off a cliff just to remain part of the UK - which is exactly what Brexit is. You also talk glass half empty 'a third of which doesn't even want to be in the EU' - that means two-thirds do, even is polling is to be believed. Politics aside, economic illiteracy doesn't help either... Quote:
I partly agree but you also have to remember that she is a typical UK politician too and is also trying to look after her Party here, a third of which doesn't even want to be in the EU.
Folk like me who thinks it's economically bad to leave the EU don't think that leaving the UK will make us all better off, in fact until we see the results of Brexit such a move would in all probability make us much worse off. |
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#2411 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,282
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I have just notice maybe Scotland won't get independents for a long time.
Reason No Central Bank. |
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#2412 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North Lanarkshire
Posts: 3,192
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Quote:
I heard a joke today that Orkeny Isle and Shetland want too now back Scottish independence.So they could have there own independent from Scotland and England, cuase they feel they are more like Norway because of their history being link once to Scandinavia and the way they voted.
Next the Isle of Gernsy will want be independent to join France cuase it is close too France. Next!!! |
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#2413 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Scotland - near a whirly thing
Posts: 3,633
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Folk like me who thinks it's economically bad to leave the EU don't think that leaving the UK will make us all better off, in fact until we see the results of Brexit such a move would in all probability make us much worse off. |
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#2414 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,282
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I think Scotland will be Independent at one point but not in this decade or this moment in time.
If the French let Marine Le Pen,NF win have there way,who needs May too trigger the big fifty that would be the EU done or if a other EU member leaves. Scotland PM's would have to think more about setting up there own,Bank System cutting tie for good with London and ditch the Barret formula raise taxes and their already too high,set up there own health service too name others the Bank of England won't just let Scotland keep the pound. Borders will have too go up but strangely the SNP disagree so they are just not ready and up for the job. |
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#2415 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North Lanarkshire
Posts: 3,192
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way things seem to be heading it would be the better option, what could be described as 'least worst' option for Scotland to go independent ... greater risk is to remain tied to the soon to capsize westmintser ship ... a far greater risk than in 2014!
I'm disheartened and frustrated by the polls in a Scotland just now. Still really 45/55 despite Brexit and UK Labour collapse. I just don't understand what it is about perpetual Westminster Tory Governments and having EU citizenship removed against Scotland's will that 55% of people in ascot land find so appealing. |
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#2416 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North Lanarkshire
Posts: 3,192
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Quote:
I think Scotland will be Independent at one point but not in this decade or this moment in time.
If the French let Marine Le Pen,NF win have there way,who needs May too trigger the big fifty that would be the EU done or if a other EU member leaves. Scotland PM's would have to think more about setting up there own,Bank System cutting tie for good with London and ditch the Barret formula raise taxes and their already too high,set up there own health service too name others the Bank of England won't just let Scotland keep the pound. Borders will have too go up but strangely the SNP disagree so they are just not ready and up for the job. If Scotland is responsible for a proportional share of Uk debt, it also has proportionate ownership of all U.K assets. Choose. |
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#2417 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,002
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Scotland already has a devolved health service. It's not up to the Bank of England whether Scotland uses Sterling but it probably won't. As for capital reserves to get started, we'll simply take 9% of the value/reserves of the Bank of England.
If Scotland is responsible for a proportional share of Uk debt, it also has proportionate ownership of all U.K assets. Choose. That's why even George Kerevan SNP MP admitted it would be painful... |
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#2418 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,934
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Quote:
I have just notice maybe Scotland won't get independents for a long time.
Reason No Central Bank. Quote:
Scotland already has a devolved health service. It's not up to the Bank of England whether Scotland uses Sterling but it probably won't. As for capital reserves to get started, we'll simply take 9% of the value/reserves of the Bank of England.
If Scotland is responsible for a proportional share of Uk debt, it also has proportionate ownership of all U.K assets. Choose. You have also hit the nail on the head regarding the need to choose that if Scotland wants a share of UK assets, it would need to take a share of its debts, and this is something that was regularly brushed under the carpet by the Yes campaign. We got a lot of "of course we can use the pound", without giving any reasons other than "how dare they say we can't?" If Scotland wants a currency union, then it would require the agreement of the rUK, and why would or should they agree to that? The problems of a currency union have become clear with the Euro, and that's within a union with agreed rules. Independence campaigners claim they want to be free from these agreements with rUK. Another option is to simply use the pound, with no formal control, in much the same way some people use dollars outside of the US. That would mean a lot less admin and would be 'easier', but makes a mockery of the idea of having greater control. The reality is that the biggest turn-off for independence comes when the subject of currency is discussed. If we did have another referendum, it would get a lot more attention than it's had lately, so the Scottish Government need to come up with a plan, or hope that the Euro suddenly becomes popular again. |
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#2419 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scotland, Europe
Posts: 6,737
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Quote:
I think Scotland will be Independent at one point but not in this decade or this moment in time.
If the French let Marine Le Pen,NF win have there way,who needs May too trigger the big fifty that would be the EU done or if a other EU member leaves. Scotland PM's would have to think more about setting up there own,Bank System cutting tie for good with London and ditch the Barret formula raise taxes and their already too high,set up there own health service too name others the Bank of England won't just let Scotland keep the pound. Borders will have too go up but strangely the SNP disagree so they are just not ready and up for the job. The world over many countries have open borders with neighbours and they live side by side just fine and often have different immigration and customs regimes, yet we are all told that Scotland and England will have to have a huge border and Scotland will have to be part of that. Say we got our independence and the Scottish Government just simply refused to built any kind of border infrastructure and refused to monitor anyone coming in from England, Wales or NI? How would the UK react? There wouldn't be much they could do. It would be up to the UK to fund and patrol this new border and Scotland could just ignore it. Who would protest exactly? if someone didn't have the right to be in Scotland they would be removed, if they didn't have the right to live and work in Scotland then they would eventually be found if they decided to try and work illegally in much the same way anyone who is working or living illegally is found today. Denmark suspended Schengen on their borders, probably expecting the whole thing to come tumbling down, but in reality Germany and Sweden don't care, they don't man the borders and leave it to the Danes to stop cars/trains and check passports of those coming in. Even before Schengen it was pretty rare to have to show a passport when going between most European countries, especially Scandinavian ones. The same could happen here too. Russia and Belarus have a virtually open border between their countries, but still demand separate visas for people visiting, living and working in either country. They share a customs union too with Kazakhstan, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan, meaning goods can flow freely between these nations too. In the Balkan states it is not uncommon to just be waived through border points without even reaching for the passport. I've crossed borders there and the guards haven't even bothered to stop the car. suggest that somehow the UK and Scotland couldn't come up with a solution other than "build that wall" is ludicrous. Just the usual narrow minded, obscure, paranoid mentality shining through. Why the need to build walls when it's perfectly possible to live without them and still ensure people reside where they are allowed to? I draw your attention to the fact we have had an open border with the ROI for decades and have had different visa regimes to them. Why would Scotland have to be any different? And all this stuff about "letting Scotland use the Pound". For goodness sake. Any country can use any currency it so wishes, without the permission from the country that actually administers the currency. I used US Dollars in North Korea, as well as the Euro and Chinese RMB. I used USD, Swiss Francs, GBP and Euros in Cuba. The use the Euro in Kosovo and Montenegro which aren't even EU members! The Deutschmark used to flow freely in Yugoslavia! Why the need to say things like "you wont be allowed" when in reality no one can stop it. There are dozens of places that use the GBP which aren't in the UK. The Channel Islands, IOM and every overseas territory make use of GBP, yet we are led to believe that Scotland would be banned from being able to spend the currency we have used for centuries. Get real! At some point, if/when Scotland does vote to break away realpolitik will take over the mindless rantings of naysayer MPs will be drowned out and forgotten about. I say this as someone who wouldn't even support the use of GBP, it'd be better off in the long run to have our own currency. Oh, but then I'd have to change money to visit London? Who cares? In reality people would get over these things pretty damn quickly. People who fought wards for independence didn't give a toss about what money they would use, yet here we are getting all flustered over it as if it really, actually matters. And as for Orkney or Shetland wanting to break away from Scotland. Great. If the people there want to do so then let them. Why stand in the way of the demands of people living there? Why belittle their attempts and make jokes? I would wish them all well if that's the path they chose on whatever grounds they want to break away from the UK or Scotland. There will come a time when people get sick of hearing their islands/nations/states/regions/provinces/territories can't/won't/shouldn't decide their own destiny. Brexit showed that even in spite of facts and experts, people still voted to leave the EU, and yet those same people who rejected the truth in June and voted purely on their own prejudices expect others to adhere to their facts and expert opinion and reject Scottish independence. It's nonsense. |
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#2420 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,002
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Quote:
...
And all this stuff about "letting Scotland use the Pound". For goodness sake. Any country can use any currency it so wishes, without the permission from the country that actually administers the currency. I used US Dollars in North Korea, as well as the Euro and Chinese RMB. I used USD, Swiss Francs, GBP and Euros in Cuba. The use the Euro in Kosovo and Montenegro which aren't even EU members! The Deutschmark used to flow freely in Yugoslavia! Why the need to say things like "you wont be allowed" when in reality no one can stop it. There are dozens of places that use the GBP which aren't in the UK. The Channel Islands, IOM and every overseas territory make use of GBP, yet we are led to believe that Scotland would be banned from being able to spend the currency we have used for centuries. Get real! At some point, if/when Scotland does vote to break away realpolitik will take over the mindless rantings of naysayer MPs will be drowned out and forgotten about. I say this as someone who wouldn't even support the use of GBP, it'd be better off in the long run to have our own currency. Oh, but then I'd have to change money to visit London? Who cares? In reality people would get over these things pretty damn quickly. People who fought wards for independence didn't give a toss about what money they would use, yet here we are getting all flustered over it as if it really, actually matters. ... And it did matter and it's why it caused the YES side such an issue and will continue to do so. |
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#2421 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,790
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This is interesting: Sturgeon seemingly putting indy #2 on the back burner for now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-38528058 Personally, I think this is more about damage limitation than anything else. She was quite matter of fact after the EU ref result that a 2nd Scottish indy ref was highly likely. Yet.. as the close of the draft consultation on that looms closer, and the word on the street is not in favour of a 2nd Scottish indy ref, I think it's more of a 'get in first and try and play it down a bit'. |
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#2422 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North Lanarkshire
Posts: 3,192
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I think our share of reserves is circa £6bn and to have our own own currency, we'd need reserves of circa £40bn - based on Denmark.
That's why even George Kerevan SNP MP admitted it would be painful... |
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#2423 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North Lanarkshire
Posts: 3,192
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Quote:
Agreed that devolving health isn't a huge constitution problem - although there remain some shared services, and expectations of reciprocal support, which would require negotiation.
You have also hit the nail on the head regarding the need to choose that if Scotland wants a share of UK assets, it would need to take a share of its debts, and this is something that was regularly brushed under the carpet by the Yes campaign. We got a lot of "of course we can use the pound", without giving any reasons other than "how dare they say we can't?" If Scotland wants a currency union, then it would require the agreement of the rUK, and why would or should they agree to that? The problems of a currency union have become clear with the Euro, and that's within a union with agreed rules. Independence campaigners claim they want to be free from these agreements with rUK. Another option is to simply use the pound, with no formal control, in much the same way some people use dollars outside of the US. That would mean a lot less admin and would be 'easier', but makes a mockery of the idea of having greater control. The reality is that the biggest turn-off for independence comes when the subject of currency is discussed. If we did have another referendum, it would get a lot more attention than it's had lately, so the Scottish Government need to come up with a plan, or hope that the Euro suddenly becomes popular again. |
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#2424 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scotland, Europe
Posts: 6,737
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Quote:
I don't want a currency union with a Brexit UK. Is Singapore can have its own very successful currency then so can Scotland.
Some people seem to think Scotland will be desperate to cling to the UK for some obscure reasons. Singapore is just one developed country which has it's own currency and is smaller than Scotland. Macau, Hong Kong, Qatar, UAE...well I'm not listing every single country, but you get the idea. None of these places are in the depths of poverty or have somehow had to attach themselves to another currency to survive. They cite trade percentages. Yes, in the here and now, trade is substantial, but in a future scenario where Scotland is indy and makes it's own rules, or even does so via the EU, why do people somehow think we would suffer? The UK scrambling around for trade deals with the world and his dog, when we already had plenty either in force or coming up via the EU is not that attractive to be honest, especially if the UK is going to be difficult and standoffish at every single turn in a bid to try and out do the other party. Why on Earth is that a desirable future? As a side note, does the UK not want a favourable trade deal with the EU anyway? Would that deal be with the EU, (but not Scotland)? What benefit would the rUK have for coming up with a shit deal with an indy Scotland anyway? Again, people, use your brains. Realpolitik would very quickly be established. I reject every single argument the naysayers threw at us in 2014 even more today and every single one of my Yes voting friends/family/colleagues feel the same. I personally know of about a dozen people who said No in 2014 who are now absolutely horrified at how the UK is turning out now. The arguments about a strong UK outside the failing EU are just delusional ramblings of a failed empire and totally hypocritical when the same people say that Scotland couldn't possibly flourish outside the UK. |
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#2425 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,002
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How would our reserves be £6bn?do you think the reserves of theBOE and the value of all of the UK's assets would only be worth around £60bn?
I simply pointed out that wouldn't be sufficient and by some margin... |
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