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Unread 07-01-2017, 12:58
Impinger
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How so?
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Unread 07-01-2017, 13:41
however
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Whether Scotland will do brilliantly I couldn't say what is clear is that the SNP is of no help to anyone outside Scotland and has no interest in other parts of the UK getting a reasonable outcome.

For that reason Sturgeon should put her case to the people again and preferably soon so that if necessary the rUK can remove Scotland from any part in the Brexit negotiations and move on.

But we do need her to get moving and stop time wasting.
Good post.

The problem is Sturgeon knows the chances of success in a referendum anytime soon is very unlikely especially since a vote for independence would mean Scotland being out of the UK and the EU, along with the financial problems independence would bring.

I think she would have to establish a central bank with our own currency and organize our economy in such a way that it would meet the standards required for a successful application for EU membership which would probably take years.

By that time UK will be completely free of the EU with a better deal in my opinion than many pessimists seem to think.

In the meantime she will continue to be a thorn in the side for the majority of people in Scotland and the rest of the UK in the hope of keeping her supporters on-side.

As for an independent Scotland doing ' brilliantly on its own' in the foreseeable future is very wishful thinking.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 13:59
thms
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..a vote for independence would mean Scotland being out of the UK and the EU..
Which is what Article 50 will resolve.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 15:32
tiggertiny
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Scotland would still be in the UK and in the EU after a successful vote for independence in the summer, so how will your suggestion work in practice?
It would simply mean that irrespective of what Sturgeon might have said she wants it can be ignored, as could she for that matter, as any deal would not be a permanent arrangement for Scotland, which can subsequently negotiate its entry into the EU for itself and subsequently whatever trading/border arrangements etc. would apply between rUK and Scotland.

Of course if the Scottish people decided to vote to stay in the UK then the deal is for us all and HMG should pursue one that is as good as we can get and in those circumstances Sturgeon would have little option but to accept it.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 16:01
The infidel
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Scotland would still be in the UK and in the EU after a successful vote for independence in the summer, so how will your suggestion work in practice?
How on earth will Scotland be in EITHER the UK or the EU after a vote for independence? No wonder you people have lost all credibility with nonsense like that.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 16:32
Black Sheep
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Whether Scotland will do brilliantly I couldn't say what is clear is that the SNP is of no help to anyone outside Scotland and has no interest in other parts of the UK getting a reasonable outcome.

For that reason Sturgeon should put her case to the people again and preferably soon so that if necessary the rUK can remove Scotland from any part in the Brexit negotiations and move on.

But we do need her to get moving and stop time wasting.
Given that the Polls clearly show no greater demand for independence post Brexit than in 2014 Sturgeon clearly cannot call a referendum as she would highly likely lose and with that lose her job too.

Subsequently there would be no further referendums for a long long time and Angus Robertson would be left with little to build on.

The SNP realistically only get one more shot at independence in the near future and Sturgeon is not willing to chance this in the current economic climate. This is why a referendum has effectively been pushed back into the next Scottish Parliament.

However, she has to try and keep all of her supporters content and hence the endless rhetoric. She has stated her priority for this Parliament is education.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 16:37
Black Sheep
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I would say that she's put the independence referendum at the heart of the Brexit negotiations. Basically, unless there is a soft Brexit without Scotland remaining part of the single market, she'll call for a referendum. It puts May in an invidious position - the choice of giving Scotland special treatment or a good chance of losing Scotland.
And what if there is a hard Brexit and there is still no change in the Polls? it would be a huge personal gamble for Sturgeon to likely end her political career.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 17:33
The infidel
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I think this is, again, just damage limitation. I think she's realised that she was a tad too hasty with her knee-jerk "another referendum" straight after the EU Referendum result and has realised that there isn't actually much of an electorate appetite for it, so she's playing a hand that makes it look like she's giving some sort of ultimatum when in actual fact, she knows she has no chance of winning it so is just seeking an excuse not to have it.
Very true. She has finally realised that she is not able to influence anybody either in the British Government or in the EU. She fired all of her guns at once before sitting back and evaluating the rapidly changing situation. Even the most fanatical nationalists will have raised their eyebrows with talk of forming new countries with London etc. She is talking of joining the EU and staying in the UK. How on earth does either or both option make Scotland independent? Where are the plans for currency, defence? Will we pay a contribution towards the EU or will we need to be a net. drain on EU funds?
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Unread 07-01-2017, 17:38
tiggertiny
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Given that the Polls clearly show no greater demand for independence post Brexit than in 2014 Sturgeon clearly cannot call a referendum as she would highly likely lose and with that lose her job too.

Subsequently there would be no further referendums for a long long time and Angus Robertson would be left with little to build on.

The SNP realistically only get one more shot at independence in the near future and Sturgeon is not willing to chance this in the current economic climate. This is why a referendum has effectively been pushed back into the next Scottish Parliament.

However, she has to try and keep all of her supporters content and hence the endless rhetoric. She has stated her priority for this Parliament is education.
I obviously haven't the knowledge you have of how the Scottish people feel about another referendum but what I do know is that whilst the people of the rest of the UK want to get the best we can from the negotiations all we hear from Scotland is Sturgeon's constant demands and the so-called "threat" of another indy ref..

After a while even the most pro-Scottish of us begin to weary of her constant hectoring which is why it would be better to lance the boil and ask Scots to say once and for all (at least a period of ten years) what they want then negotiations could take account of the majority view in Scotland one way or the other.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 18:56
*Sparkle*
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After a while even the most pro-Scottish of us begin to weary of her constant hectoring which is why it would be better to lance the boil and ask Scots to say once and for all (at least a period of ten years) what they want then negotiations could take account of the majority view in Scotland one way or the other.
I'm fairly sure that part of her strategy is to test the patience of the rUK, and to drive a wedge between them and the Scots. A good chunk of pro-Independence campaigners relied on the idea that the English all hate us, so anything that encourages anti-Scottish sentiment works in their favour.

As for the waiting to see if there is a soft-Brexit, which is a politically savvy move. She knows there is insufficient appetite right now, and they'd definitely need higher oil prices before the economic discussions start. Oil prices are likely to rise compared with now, but it's happening too slowly for a lot of the nationalistic faithful. This is a stalling tactic where the blame can, as usual, be aimed at Westminster.

Should Britain have a soft-Brexit, then Sturgeon will inevitably take the credit. If not, then this will provide the opportunity for some agitation, and if it's somewhere inbetween then there can be some additional, blame-free stalling.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 19:28
anndra_w
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I obviously haven't the knowledge you have of how the Scottish people feel about another referendum but what I do know is that whilst the people of the rest of the UK want to get the best we can from the negotiations all we hear from Scotland is Sturgeon's constant demands and the so-called "threat" of another indy ref..

After a while even the most pro-Scottish of us begin to weary of her constant hectoring which is why it would be better to lance the boil and ask Scots to say once and for all (at least a period of ten years) what they want then negotiations could take account of the majority view in Scotland one way or the other.
Listen, Sturgeon knows that May is unlikely to give any concession to pro EU Scotland. It's important that the offer is made to hold off on a second referendum, in the short term, in return for concession. When May fails to give any concessions Sturgeon will be able to say she gave May the opportunity to delay a second referendum but May chose not to take it. Really I think you can put up with Scotland's demand for a special deal considering you expect us to put up with bring dragged out of the EU unwillingly. Your arrogance is palpable. The attitude from some in England toward Scotland is so colonial in tone and substance. There's such a lack of self awareness.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 20:26
hoppyuppy
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Listen, Sturgeon knows that May is unlikely to give any concession to pro EU Scotland. It's important that the offer is made to hold off on a second referendum, in the short term, in return for concession. When May fails to give any concessions Sturgeon will be able to say she gave May the opportunity to delay a second referendum but May chose not to take it. Really I think you can put up with Scotland's demand for a special deal considering you expect us to put up with bring dragged out of the EU unwillingly. Your arrogance is palpable. The attitude from some in England toward Scotland is so colonial in tone and substance. There's such a lack of self awareness.
Excellent irony. I am holidaying in Edinburgh in February and really hope to meet open minded people. I hope it isn't full of bigots and little Scotlanders.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 21:40
anndra_w
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Excellent irony. I am holidaying in Edinburgh in February and really hope to meet open minded people. I hope it isn't full of bigots and little Scotlanders.
What's bigoted or little Scotlander about wanting to work with other people's and within the EU. It's clear for some the sound of Scots having a voice is too much to tolerate.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 21:45
hoppyuppy
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What's bigoted or little Scotlander about wanting to work with other people's and within the EU. It's clear for some the sound of Scots having a voice is too much to tolerate.
What? Not at all sure what you are saying. I hope that when I go to Edinburgh It is a united city, not one full of miseries.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 21:56
anndra_w
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What? Not at all sure what you are saying. I hope that when I go to Edinburgh It is a united city, not one full of miseries.
How do you define a misery? Again is it Scots who are unhappy with being taken out of the EU that you think are being miserable? Are you also so arrogant?
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Unread 07-01-2017, 22:02
hoppyuppy
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How do you define a misery? Again is it Scots who are unhappy with being taken out of the EU that you think are being miserable? Are you also so arrogant?
I think the nationalists are arrogant and don't accept that they don't represent the will of the bulk of the Scottish people.

I want to meet people that aren't fixated on one thing.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 22:08
anndra_w
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I think the nationalists are arrogant and don't accept that they don't represent the will of the bulk of the Scottish people.

I want to meet people that aren't fixated on one thing.
How do you know what the will of the bulk of Scots is? Also how do you define someone as being Scottish?
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Unread 07-01-2017, 22:10
hoppyuppy
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How do you know what the will of the bulk of Scots is? Also how do you define someone as being Scottish?
It was a guess based on Sturgeon being a million miles away from daring another independence vote.

Soz.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 22:20
smudges dad
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I think the nationalists are arrogant and don't accept that they don't represent the will of the bulk of the Scottish people.

I want to meet people that aren't fixated on one thing.
Easy, most people don't discuss it. Just don't spend your time saying how great May or Farage are and you'll be fine.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 22:24
hoppyuppy
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Easy, most people don't discuss it. Just don't spend your time saying how great May or Farage are and you'll be fine.
I don't talk about politics or religion except on message boards full of know alls. Ta.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 22:28
PorkchopExpress
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I think the nationalists are arrogant and don't accept that they don't represent the will of the bulk of the Scottish people.

I want to meet people that aren't fixated on one thing.
You're the one fixated. When you come to Edinburgh don't start asking people about politics. They'll think you are an arse.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 22:29
hoppyuppy
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You're the one fixated. When you come to Edinburgh don't start asking people about politics. They'll think you are an arse.
Yes dear.
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Unread Yesterday, 00:42
Impinger
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Listen, Sturgeon knows that May is unlikely to give any concession to pro EU Scotland. It's important that the offer is made to hold off on a second referendum, in the short term, in return for concession. When May fails to give any concessions Sturgeon will be able to say she gave May the opportunity to delay a second referendum but May chose not to take it. Really I think you can put up with Scotland's demand for a special deal considering you expect us to put up with bring dragged out of the EU unwillingly. Your arrogance is palpable. The attitude from some in England toward Scotland is so colonial in tone and substance. There's such a lack of self awareness.
Sturgeon is not "offering" to hold off on a second referendum. She's finding reasons not to plough ahead demanding one. I think the result of the consultation draft re a second referendum will be quite telling, if we get to hear the result that is. Just that it's due to close in a few days, and therefore many returns will have already been received... and Sturgeon's current 'activity' would be consistent with somebody who knows that the returns thus far are not in her favour.

As for this 'dragged out the EU unwillingly'. Lament away, but voting doesn't go everybody's own way.
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Unread Yesterday, 05:30
Black Sheep
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Excellent irony. I am holidaying in Edinburgh in February and really hope to meet open minded people. I hope it isn't full of bigots and little Scotlanders.
You will have a great time and meet some great folk. His view is representative of a minority, even among those that want an independent Scotland.

I assure you that unless you bring it up you will find very few people whose main topic of conversation will be about the referendum or independence.
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Unread Yesterday, 05:39
Black Sheep
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How do you know what the will of the bulk of Scots is? Also how do you define someone as being Scottish?
I would define being Scottish as born here, or having lived or be living here and identifying themselves as Scottish, or living elsewhere but having Scottish ancestors.

The vast majority of us fall into the first category.

How would you define it?
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