I like a contestant that I can see immediately has a real natural ability to dance, whether or not they have any dance training or experience.

BIB Logan you mean.

You may not have realised it but I knew categorically knew that when he got that 10 in Week 3, nobody was going to stop him - and said as much here on a number of occasions.

You seem to be saying that a big part of his win was down to his personality. But why should someone win for being who they are (different and more relevant in BB)? Would Jay have won whoever he was partnered with because of who he is? Are people then saying that Abbey should have lost on who she is because she came over as annoying aside from having a great partnership with Aljaz along with some great routines. You talk about mistakes...but Peter Andre wasn't forgiven for ANY of his...

So tip for this year's contestants - act like ypou've got the fear of God inside you, doing some decent enough dancing with one standout routine and BINGO - you've cracked it!

I look for a partnership that works. This can be that the celebrity makes me like a professional more or vice versa.

Camillia used to irritate me no end until the partnership with Tom.
Pasha was new, and Chelsee appeared chavvy, but together they were appealing.
I liked Matt with Alesha but not with Christine.
Flavia & Jimi were brilliant together, yet I never really got the whole Louis thing.

All totally a personal opinion.

BIB1 - Chris Hollins' win was surely down to personality, partnership and how he connected with the public. It certainly wasn't down to him being the best dancer.

BIB2 -.Peter wasn't forgiven for any of his mistakes? The judges barely mentioned his mistakes.

Peter was definitely style over substance, which irritates voters when ignored by the judges.

I was talking about Jay!

But whilst were on the subject of Chris, why did he win as you seem to have discounted him in every possible area??


daziechain said Jay made mistakes but so what, he's human. So I responded by saying (and meaning) that the public were not so generous with Peter, picking him up on even on the way he put a cake down on a table! I mentioned nothing about the judges...

Yes Logan ... that's the one!

You must have realised by now that it's the all round package. Personally, Jay was my winner ... or the person I was going to vote for .. in week 2. Loved his attitude, loved the dance ... loved that the big seemingly caveman could dance so gracefully etc etc. Loved him and Aliona together.
You can't define it ... and no ... plenty of people are terrified or nervous. That's not what will make them win, great dancing won't make them win, great looks won't help them win. It's whoever engages with the viewer (usually for a myriad of reasons) .. whoever, for them, they look forward to seeing the most.
People began not to look forward to Peter ... because he didn't come across well, he talked himself up all the time and he wouldn't shut up! Add to that some lack lustre dancing and you've got someone who fell short of everybody's expectations.
Jay won on the tour, nearly every date. He might not be popular with you but people took to him and Aliona. I don't know why you have to find reasons for it ... as if it was undeserved. I don't try and find reasons for Louis Smith or Chris Hollins winning .. even though they weren't my choice. They won because more people liked them than liked my favourite. Simple as.

BIB 1 - No, you wrote "why should someone win", then opened up the discussion further by mentioning Abbey and Aljaz.

I also don't see how I have discounted Chris Hollins.


BIB 2 - You didn't mention the public, you just said he " wasn't forgiven any of his".

Again, I agree totally with your first paragraph. But I also accept it wasn't Jay's fault. He was lucky with the jive; he can't be blamed for the fact that he subsequently became an instant favourite with a lot of the viewers, and, in their eyes could seemingly do no wrong.

Can't agree with you about Darren Gough or Chris Hollins though! I didn't enjoy their wins iota. But we all see things differently - forums would be dull otherwise

Thanks for the agreement. I've only highlighted that bit because that's how I felt last year with the show. I fully accept people took that view with Jay, but it just became annoying that (even as only a sofa judge as I call myself) I noticed errors in Jay's dances that simply couldn't be commented on without a chorus of boos.

I know it's a panto atmosphere on Strictly and the booing is encouraged, but I've never heard it like that before. I backed Katie last year but even when she made errors, I could accept them (barring Craig's hatred of her in the final) and take them as something to improve upon.

With Jay, it felt like he couldn't be criticised (often fairly) without a wall of noise coming the judges way.

I get it's not all Jay's fault, the producers had a heck of a lot of influence is bigging him up as the man to beat, but it just got on my nerves.

"Discounted" meaning you believe he (Chris) didn't win due to any of the factors you mention in the quote above. So I am now asking, why DID you think he won?

BIB 2 - You didn't mention the public, you just said he " wasn't forgiven any of his".

You are right - I was thinking aloud as I was typing. In all honesty, I didn't even mean the public as a whole - I meant us here in the forum...

And I love your "caveman" analogy and is highly accurate and would have made a great story for Strictly...had he REALLY been a novice.

The one and only thing that put me right off Jay was his non-disclosure of his previous training and his subsequent playing up to both his fake novice-like status and nerves, only to suddenly throw all caution to the wind in Week 3 when he started to reveal the 'true' Jay who was actually a competent enough dancer from Day 1. I remember Bruno once harping on about his brilliant spinning technique and I remember thinking, I could spin that well too with enough previous training. Honestly, nobody can convince me he learnt to spin like that through Aliona only?!

His whole approach was all very underhand to me and, if anything, this is why I feel that he didn't deserve his win. Georgia or Kellie would have felt much more "honest".

Which I have done because I don't have a preference


Because it's an entertainment programme where people are told to vote for their favourite, so they do.

I think more than anything, this is what annoyed me.

The judges are surely aware of who has done what in terms of training, so why on earth congratulate a contestant on something they would have already learned in a discipline like ballet or tap? In all honesty, I'd feel embarrassed to act all humble about it, when I knew I'd spent years perfecting something.

Then, on the other side, you had people harping on about Anita not pointing her toes properly. How can you expect a novice to nail something like ballroom and latin dance, while also having to practice and remember the basic elements of dance that are simply second nature to other, more seasoned contestants?

All in your head. Jay's previous experience ... such as it was ... was on his Strictly biog from the start and he certainly didn't keep it quiet.Kellie had just as much previous experience and I don't remember her talking about it. Were Kellie and Georgia poor to start with then? No ... they were pretty consistent from the beginning.
You've only got to read the current reviews for Keep Dancing (and listen to the experts on here for that matter) .... Jay is not a trained dancer!
The jive suited him and he loved it. The following week he had a near disaster with the QS. I guess you've forgotten about that.
You don't like him ... so you're looking for reasons but they don't make sense. Yes ... he did a brilliant dance week 3 but that didn't mean he was top every week afterwards. He struggled, as they all did, with certain dances. A trained dancer would have just breezed through the whole thing.
It's pointless though ... you have your view .. which is just based on your dislike.
This was already mentioned on another thread. People only care about dance training if they dislike the celeb. They then harp on about it like the celeb is Fred Astaire/Ginger Rogers.
Inexplicably, the next season, they back someone who comes straight from Sylvia Young etc!

For every one saying that Jay was a trained dancer ... there was plenty saying he was useless and they didn't think the jive was all that anyway. Usually it was the same people saying both!!

Because he didn't do ballet or tap I expect. Street dance and contemporary dance is quite different to a more formal discipline like the previous and all of them are utterly different to Ballroom and Latin.

Jay had had previous dance experience for sure and I don't actually ever remember him denying at any point, I also don't remember anyone on the show mentioning it to him either.
It's not his fault he was asked to take part, neither is it his fault he did dance lessons as a kid on a Saturday morning and after school or that he attended a stage school, a lot of previous SCD contestants have done so.

He won because more people voted for him.

"Jay's first dancing steps came at the school, where he took part in ballet, theatre and tap classes each week." (Source: http://newarkadvertiser.co.uk/articl...iness-backed-b )

His training involved both classical and modern disciplines.

I didn't say he shouldn't have won because of it - I'm just responding in agreement with jiroos regarding certain things that were irritating or "off".

It's not his fault, no, but like jiroos - I felt there was some playing up of this "lost lamb" character...despite being an extremely competent dancer. Just in the same way people felt Abbey was overdoing it with her "nerves", I felt Jay was "underdoing" it with how experienced he was.

Anyway, trying to keep it more objective this year, since as you know - I got involved in more than my fair share of disputes on this site last time

Jays bio is still available http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/prof.../jay-mcguiness and still, as it always did, discloses his training

It is possible for people to love performing but still be nervous about doing it. Laurerence Olivier had terrible stagefright and at times actually needed someone on stage with him as a security blanket - or was he just faking for a knighthood

I suspect some people who took a dislike to Jay wouldn't even have been happy with full page adverts in all national newspapers.

One thing that will galvanise the voters is harsh comments from the judges. I do wonder how much this influences votes? Jay, Caroline, Tom, Chris and others have benefitted from not being overly praised by the judges.

I like both but voted ringers on this poll, just because I love the journeys like Jeremy, but would probably never vote for them to win.

It really comes down to seeing amazing dancing, the friendship and partnership with the pro dancer and probably partly how much you like their persona prior to or during the show.

Yeah the VT where he visited his old dance school with Aliona wasn't a bit of clue for the average viewer?

So did I when I was a kid, doesn't mean I have "lots of professional dance experience" as he was accused of at various times on DS.
Unless he continued to specialise in either ballet or tap, which we know he didn't because he did street dance/contemporary and there's videos of it to demonstrate, his experience was the same as the thousands of kids who go to some sort of dance class when they're young.

I did ballet, tap and contemporary dance until my late teens, wouldn't make me any good at Ballroom or Latin other than perhaps the waltz and not getting too dizzy in the spins

why is 'ringer' like a dirty word round here? it's not your enemae

Well, it's a circular argument, but obviously he did extra-curricular dance before studying it at a higher level in his teens. Difference is, not all kids that do this go on a show for supposed amateurs

As for the skills you learn not being transferable, I honestly just struggle to take that claim seriously. Sure, you have fresh technique to take on, but all the basic elements of dance are already set out as a foundation - meaning unhindered ballroom/latin progress. Hence why all the stage school graduates are the ones that nail the technique.

For me I see no difference in that than I do a baker competing in Masterchef. You could say till the cows come home that you have to "unlearn" skills to be able to produce main meals rather than baked goods - but the fact is that it would be unfair on fellow contestants.