I think the story was light enough generally for this to not be a big deal - I think it was dealt with succinctly with the Doctor's refusal to travel with her. Whilst of course his reason is that he travels alone ever since what happened to Donna, it also proved that an anti-heroic thief just doesn't cut it to win the Doctor over. He gives her her freedom but she'll never be someone who travels with the Doctor - which broadly speaking is the opposite kind of person that every kid viewer presumably wants to be.

This was the episode that made me realise it was time for the RTD era to go away. I thought the specials, aside from WoM, were piss poor.

His format for the show was really tired and dragging by this point. I can remember the day it aired vividly because it was the first time ever I had Doctor Who on as just background noise while I did something else instead. The story had murdered my interest completely within the first 10 minutes.

Hmm, bit of a redundant point because RTD had already decided himself it was time for his era "to go away". But I agree, I wish he'd left at the end of Series 4. Still at least RTD knew when to go and didn't hang around for years and years past his sell by date.....

It's hardly fair to blame SM for staying on when no suitable replacements were available. You know he wanted to go earlier than this, right? If he'd left when he originally wanted to there wouldn't have been any Doctor Who for the last couple of years, possibly resulting in the end of Doctor Who for a while.

Whether you enjoyed the resulting output or not, it's better than the alternative, no programme at all for the last 2 years.

I really don't understand why you take every opportunity to have a dig at SM, whether reasonable or not. I appreciate fair criticisms of him (or any aspect of Doctor Who or those involved in making it), even when I disagree, but your motivation eludes me.

When did SM say he wanted to leave? Wasn't it before season 8, so basically it would have taken 4 years to find a suitable replacement? Sorry i don't buy that at all, he got to preoccupied with Sherlock, couldn't juggle both shows and then we got this.

That said i actually do like Moffat, but i don't believe for one second it took them this long for a replacement if he really wanted to leave.

Really? No one else in television is capable of producing Doctor Who???

We haven't had a great deal of Who over the last few years anyway. What we have had has, IMO been of very poor quality. So yes, I would rather have no Who than rubbish going out under the Doctor Who title.

My motivation is simple. I am a life long Doctor Who fan and have hated what Moffat has done to the show and his casual disdain for it, i.e. Who production has to fit around him.

If you enjoy Moffat's version of Who then fair enough, but I don't.

I never start a discussion criticising him, but I will contribute to existing threads.

I *think*, but am obviously open to correction, SM was originally considering doing 3 series and out when he got the job; whether that would've included the 50th and Xmas 2013 I have no idea. Very probably as that would've been quite a thing to lay on a new guy!

He's been honest about Matt's third year/the 50th being an unhappy, difficult time so decided to stay on for a couple more series with the new Doctor so he wasn't leaving in a negative fashion. I think it's very likely, and he's said as much, that 'Husbands of River Song' was intended to be his swansong, (So he would've 'done a Letts'; 5 full series) but Chibbers was Showrunner-Elect by this time and was (is) tied up with the final series of 'Broadchurch', hence not able to take over the reigns until 2017.

We'll see what Series 10 brings, but I was generally v impressed by Series 9, (it's up there with series 4 and 5 in my geek list) so am just hoping I feel the same way about his swansong. Then over to you, Christopher...No pressure.

As noted many time before: It's a small talent pool in the UK. The BBC wouldn't want to risk such a worldwide success on a relative newcomer. By the time you also filter out the talent that doesn't want to do it (probably believing it's something of a poisoned chalice), you get to where we are.

You really think he has a casual disdain for the show? That opinion on his opinion simply doesn't fit the facts we know. He would never have taken on the job in the first place if he really felt that way about Doctor Who, let alone have stayed on as he has. And many times he has expressed his love of the show as a long time fan.

Yes, you certainly did contribute to this thread, which wasn't about SM until you had an unnecessary side swipe at him. In essence you did initiate this SM vs RTD debate in this thread. No-one had mentioned SM in the post you responded to. SM wasn't relevant.

You are wrong. I initiated nothing. I replied to a poster who said that RTD stayed too long. I agreed plus made the logical point that his successor stayed twice as long. You are the one who then escalated this one line to a full blown SM v RTD issue. I, on the other hand, critised RTD as much as SM in my post, so there was no SM v RTD from me.

Just been reading the new DWM and a fan asked SM whether watching future episodes (ie Chibbers era) will be hard. Answer;

"...I know that I *will* watch because it's part of me. Watching DW matters deeply to me and I will never give that up. And I would never have done the job if I'd have thought that it would want to make me give that up. It was a huge emotional wrench to decide to leave...Having decided, I think I'm quite excited about the other things I can do. I realise, from talking to Matt and David and Russell, that I am deluded in this, and my life from now on is going to be a spiral of regret, and alcoholism, and random violence in the presence of any award-winner for 'best newcomer'."

Whatever ones thoughts on the quality of RTD or SM's eras, their love for the show shines through in any interviews I've read. And I don't think Chibnall is likely to be any different...well, on that score, at least!

I chose to respond to you so, you are correct. I did escalate it, but it wasn't me that initiated it.

Let's get away from the personal shall we?

I note you didn't respond to my substantive points about opinions of the show and reasons for staying.

No need to continue the personal, l agree, but as you have asked about your substantive points I will respond to those.

I disagree. I think there is a pool of talent capable of producing Who. Look at all the other non Who dramas produced throughout the year. I do not accept that some of the people involved in those cannot turn their skills to Who. Look at all the output of Big Finish, can't some of those writers be utilised? I also don't see why the behind the scenes team has to be tied to a particular format, e.g. being led by a so called show runner.

I am not claiming that Moffat isn't a fan of the show, but I am claiming that (IMO) he is not up to the job of show runner and that he has neglected Who for other projects. It is an indisputable fact that the quantity of Who has declined since he's been in charge, whatever one's views on the quality.

Fair enough.

Those are decent ideas. It's been discussed before that a team of writers with one head writer would be a good way forward for Doctor Who and to separate the head writer's role from the producer role and day-to-day running of production. Head writer would still have to work closely with the producer.

Saying he had a "casual disdain" for the show sounded like you didn't think he was a fan.

He obviously has some ego, or he wouldn't have taken on the job. As show runner he's not just entitled to put his stamp on the show but it's expected.

Maybe it's his ego that hasn't allowed him to fully appreciate that he can't do full justice to both Sherlock and Doctor Who at the same time. With the result that we've had less Doctor Who "than ever before". And probably less Sherlock too, though both Cumberbatch's and Freeman's availability add other "timing" difficulties. It's taken priority over Doctor Who.

He uses the hype cycle to promote the show just like any good producer/publicist would. It's also part of the show runner's job. He's not unique in that. I don't see why he comes in for special criticism for using hype,

For me it's far easier to explain the current situation being caused by a bit of ego, some love of and loyalty to the show, and whole lot of absence of suitable replacements.

Rock and a hard place. Perhaps the BBC should have made him choose one or the other when it became clear it was heading towards difficulties.

Cheers.

I'm speaking for myself here, not Boz, but I find it's hard not to say something detrimental about SM when I'm posting about Doctor Who, simply because I've grown to dislike his era so much, or at least the latter part of it.

I've always given him credit where I thought it was due, but if I'm commenting on, say, series 9, it always comes over as having a dig, because I can't say anything good about it. (Sorry Michael ).

The trouble is, people take it personally if they're Moffat fans (something I completely understand btw) so I end up not posting at all because I don't want to post yet another anti-Moffat moan. It's not that I loathe Moffat and therefore criticise him and his works, it's that I don't like his works so if I mention him at all, it's to criticise

I'm livid!!!

Hell, people can post that they hate Matt Smith, or Sixties Who was rubbish or that the Williams era is irredeemable or any other opinion, however misguided and clearly wrong. (JOKE!) Doesn't really matter, does it! Not to me.

I do notice on the interweb, and it happens here sometimes, that if someone criticises a particular era or story or Doctor that they love, people can get terribly defensive and bring up an unrelated era/story/whatever even if it's not something relevant to the topic. I suppose that's, ha, human nature, but it can get a bit wearisome sometimes. * At least on DS you *generally* don't tend to get the "Oooh, you're just a Moffat/RTD/Tennant/Smith/Other Fanboy (or fanboi. Or fangirl or 'Stan'...that' last one's big on imdb. Or was. I stopped looking at that forum ages ago! Some v odd stuff!)

* I think I'll call it Farting Alien Moon Egg Syndrome.

PS How about Paving Slab BJ Wardrobe Syndrome?

Thought my above post was a bit pompous, so just to add that I veer off topic all the time and remember meeting regularly with a number of fellow fans circa 1985 on and would get defensive as I soon realised that as a 'Class of '82' convert, a lot of them were nowhere near as keen on the Davison era as I was (to say the least), and once I'd seen a lot of pre season 19 stories would respond to the criticism of 'my' era with "Pertwee era was so golden, yeah? What about -insert story here-; was probably The Time Monster; long time ago!

Glass houses and all that!

Granny, your posts are always fair minded. You know I'm not uncritical of SM.

Wasn't Moffat against the S7 split, though? Obviously, he gets in on discussions as to when and how they should air episodes, but ultimately he doesn't control the transmissions.

As for this year's split, assuming Doctor Who makes it to another showrunner after Chibnall, I think it'll be the norm to see a "gap" year at the or coming up to the end of a showrunner's tenure to accommodate for changes and such.

Good points Granny which I naturally agree with....

I actually like Steven Moffat. I think he has a genuine love for the show and puts a lot of effort into what he does. He does what he thinks is right as all showrunners and producers have done in the past.

Doesn't mean I have to like it though!

You can't have read my responses to criticism of Tennant.



You'll have to explain that one to me...."Stan"???

I'm much more thoughtful nowadays about how I approach my posts. I do still struggle with the show in its current form because I haven't really enjoyed it as much since Moffat took over. To be honest, I've particularly struggled since Clara became the full time companion and even more so since the arrival of the 12th Doctor.

But I do accept that some forum members genuinely disliked the RTD era as much as I dislike this current era, and there's simply no point two Doctor Who fans constantly bashing heads over things they will never agree on.

I will still post my opinions and I am happy to say what I didn't like or am not enjoying but I work really hard not to be drawn into arguments anymore.

Hopefully Chibnall will work his magic and unite us all as one happy Who family.

I think it comes from the Eminem song of that name about an obsessed fan so is just an update of fanboy/fangirl. I'm down with da kidz, Granny.

(Yeah, right!)

Well, there was a flying pig in Aliens of London, but that was fictional!

I liked that little space pig. Poor porker. Why were UNIT so rash(er)?

(I'm so sorry.)

Oh, that poor little pig. Why is it never in the flashbacks when the Doctor remembers the innocent victims he failed to save?