She had such an extraordinary life, I can't imagine she'd be happy there.
Was the Doctor right to "save" River in the library?
The form of life her data ghost had would have had in the library, was better than death erasing her from existence completely. It allowed at least an echo of her consciousness to live on.
The real her, died a fitting hero's death, whilst the data ghost got to basically be immortal, in a virtual reality that was said to be a good place by the end of the episode, and surrounded by people she had become friends with.
After her life of adventure, it seems sort of like a pleasant retirement to me.
The real her, died a fitting hero's death, whilst the data ghost got to basically be immortal, in a virtual reality that was said to be a good place by the end of the episode, and surrounded by people she had become friends with.
After her life of adventure, it seems sort of like a pleasant retirement to me.
I think it was just something he did for selfish reasons because he couldn't bear to lose her, then couldn't bear to go back to see her like that. There was no right or wrong to it, it was an emotional response, something someone would do in the depth of grief. From Night of the Doctor, it sounds like she was called upon from time to time as a ghost but she basically wandered around gardens with her friends.
Originally Posted by Salcy:
“I think it was just something he did for selfish reasons because he couldn't bear to lose her, then couldn't bear to go back to see her like that. There was no right or wrong to it, it was an emotional response, something someone would do in the depth of grief. From Night of the Doctor, it sounds like she was called upon from time to time as a ghost but she basically wandered around gardens with her friends.”
“I think it was just something he did for selfish reasons because he couldn't bear to lose her, then couldn't bear to go back to see her like that. There was no right or wrong to it, it was an emotional response, something someone would do in the depth of grief. From Night of the Doctor, it sounds like she was called upon from time to time as a ghost but she basically wandered around gardens with her friends.”
Well, she'd whispered something to him that clearly had a dramatic effect on him, but at the start of the story Ten had no idea who she was! Maybe he had an idea as the events unfurled in the story as to how important River would be to him?
It's an interesting question, OP. I just think that when he's caught up in the moment he can have a purely emotional response, as Salcy says. The Doctor is flawed (one of the many reasons why I love the character) and can just get emotionally caught up in the moment and not always be in a state of mind to think through the possible consequences of his actions. Similar to what he does to save Ashildr in 'The Girl Who Died'; he's saying he might've made a *big* mistake even before the end of that episode...
[quote]Well, she'd whispered something to him that clearly had a dramatic effect on him, but at the start of the story Ten had no idea who she was! Maybe he had an idea as the events unfurled in the story as to how important River would be to him? [quote]
But 10 didn't do the screwdriver, did he? It was 12. 10 had a split second to work out that his future self had thought her so important that he had done something to the screwdriver.
I agree that it is the fact that he is a flawed individual that makes him so great as a character. He's not perfect. He's not even the best Timelord. But he sometimes does things not necessarily sensible because he maybe doesn't do rules as much as he should, or he would if he was a proper Timelord!
But 10 didn't do the screwdriver, did he? It was 12. 10 had a split second to work out that his future self had thought her so important that he had done something to the screwdriver.
I agree that it is the fact that he is a flawed individual that makes him so great as a character. He's not perfect. He's not even the best Timelord. But he sometimes does things not necessarily sensible because he maybe doesn't do rules as much as he should, or he would if he was a proper Timelord!
I think that Series 4 and Series 9 both explored the Doctor doing things without proper regard for the people he was doing them to. Series 4 did it with River, and later Donna. Series 9 did it with Ashildr, and saw the Doctor attempt to repeat it with Clara.
The Donna and Clara parallels were striking - in both cases he intended to wipe their memory of everything they'd done together so that they could live. With little hesitation he did it to Donna against her emotional protestations, and wiped her memory. With Clara he was going to do the same though she managed to argue that she was entitled to her past and would rather die with it in tact (we'll not go into how much of a needless mess Hell Bent made of things though). It might just be coincidence but both stories basically saw the darker side of the Doctor emerging (the so-called Timelord Victorious... I hate that phrase personally)... after losing Donna, the Doctor travelled alone for ages and ultimately strayed into the darker territory that he found himself in The End of Time. And it was the threat of losing Clara as he did that drove him to darker extremes... it just happened that a companion that was the perfect match for him was able to talk him down from that pedestal. But Clara's points seem like a valid argument that technically also apply to Donna as well - she was entitled to her past. And she never got a say, he just took her mind because he couldn't bear for her to die.
And that's also what drives his actions with River and Ashildr. In both cases he immortalises them in some way because as River puts it "he just can't give in". It can be argued that River was still technically dead by the end of the library story - her immortalisation was an actualised virtual version of her, but it wasn't actually her per se. I would say without knowing what an existence (as opposed to a life) inside the library databanks actually entails you cannot say whether or not what he did to River was right or wrong. You can make more convincing arguments where Ashildr is concerned, and where his companions are concerned - Clara ultimately made the argument for us.
RIver's situation is also quite unique because whilst it was the Tenth Doctor who ultimately uploaded her, it was the Twelfth Doctor who enabled that to happen by means of the screwdriver. He had centuries of time to consider this, away from the gut instinct emotional response he had in the moment in the library. Maybe he thought it through more than we ever actually saw, making it less an emotional response than the other examples. Also supported by the fact that the data ghost was again, not technically River herself. He immortalised her in the same (albeit futuristic) way a park bench or an obituary might.
Personal opinion, on the list of things the Doctor has done to those he loves, the way he 'saved' River isn't high on the list of things I think he did wrong. I felt his mistreatment of Martha in his post-Rose-wallowing was worse. His treatment of Donna far more emotional, and Wilf's comments about her looking so sad but not remembering why proof of perhaps why he actually gave her a fate worse than death. His intended treatment of Clara immoral...if also for inflicting us with the curveball plot of Hell Bent.
The Donna and Clara parallels were striking - in both cases he intended to wipe their memory of everything they'd done together so that they could live. With little hesitation he did it to Donna against her emotional protestations, and wiped her memory. With Clara he was going to do the same though she managed to argue that she was entitled to her past and would rather die with it in tact (we'll not go into how much of a needless mess Hell Bent made of things though). It might just be coincidence but both stories basically saw the darker side of the Doctor emerging (the so-called Timelord Victorious... I hate that phrase personally)... after losing Donna, the Doctor travelled alone for ages and ultimately strayed into the darker territory that he found himself in The End of Time. And it was the threat of losing Clara as he did that drove him to darker extremes... it just happened that a companion that was the perfect match for him was able to talk him down from that pedestal. But Clara's points seem like a valid argument that technically also apply to Donna as well - she was entitled to her past. And she never got a say, he just took her mind because he couldn't bear for her to die.
And that's also what drives his actions with River and Ashildr. In both cases he immortalises them in some way because as River puts it "he just can't give in". It can be argued that River was still technically dead by the end of the library story - her immortalisation was an actualised virtual version of her, but it wasn't actually her per se. I would say without knowing what an existence (as opposed to a life) inside the library databanks actually entails you cannot say whether or not what he did to River was right or wrong. You can make more convincing arguments where Ashildr is concerned, and where his companions are concerned - Clara ultimately made the argument for us.
RIver's situation is also quite unique because whilst it was the Tenth Doctor who ultimately uploaded her, it was the Twelfth Doctor who enabled that to happen by means of the screwdriver. He had centuries of time to consider this, away from the gut instinct emotional response he had in the moment in the library. Maybe he thought it through more than we ever actually saw, making it less an emotional response than the other examples. Also supported by the fact that the data ghost was again, not technically River herself. He immortalised her in the same (albeit futuristic) way a park bench or an obituary might.
Personal opinion, on the list of things the Doctor has done to those he loves, the way he 'saved' River isn't high on the list of things I think he did wrong. I felt his mistreatment of Martha in his post-Rose-wallowing was worse. His treatment of Donna far more emotional, and Wilf's comments about her looking so sad but not remembering why proof of perhaps why he actually gave her a fate worse than death. His intended treatment of Clara immoral...if also for inflicting us with the curveball plot of Hell Bent.
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“I think that Series 4 and Series 9 both explored the Doctor doing things without proper regard for the people he was doing them to. Series 4 did it with River, and later Donna. Series 9 did it with Ashildr, and saw the Doctor attempt to repeat it with Clara.
The Donna and Clara parallels were striking - in both cases he intended to wipe their memory of everything they'd done together so that they could live. With little hesitation he did it to Donna against her emotional protestations, and wiped her memory. With Clara he was going to do the same though she managed to argue that she was entitled to her past and would rather die with it in tact (we'll not go into how much of a needless mess Hell Bent made of things though). It might just be coincidence but both stories basically saw the darker side of the Doctor emerging (the so-called Timelord Victorious... I hate that phrase personally)... after losing Donna, the Doctor travelled alone for ages and ultimately strayed into the darker territory that he found himself in The End of Time. And it was the threat of losing Clara as he did that drove him to darker extremes... it just happened that a companion that was the perfect match for him was able to talk him down from that pedestal. But Clara's points seem like a valid argument that technically also apply to Donna as well - she was entitled to her past. And she never got a say, he just took her mind because he couldn't bear for her to die.
And that's also what drives his actions with River and Ashildr. In both cases he immortalises them in some way because as River puts it "he just can't give in". It can be argued that River was still technically dead by the end of the library story - her immortalisation was an actualised virtual version of her, but it wasn't actually her per se. I would say without knowing what an existence (as opposed to a life) inside the library databanks actually entails you cannot say whether or not what he did to River was right or wrong. You can make more convincing arguments where Ashildr is concerned, and where his companions are concerned - Clara ultimately made the argument for us.
RIver's situation is also quite unique because whilst it was the Tenth Doctor who ultimately uploaded her, it was the Twelfth Doctor who enabled that to happen by means of the screwdriver. He had centuries of time to consider this, away from the gut instinct emotional response he had in the moment in the library. Maybe he thought it through more than we ever actually saw, making it less an emotional response than the other examples. Also supported by the fact that the data ghost was again, not technically River herself. He immortalised her in the same (albeit futuristic) way a park bench or an obituary might.
Personal opinion, on the list of things the Doctor has done to those he loves, the way he 'saved' River isn't high on the list of things I think he did wrong. I felt his mistreatment of Martha in his post-Rose-wallowing was worse. His treatment of Donna far more emotional, and Wilf's comments about her looking so sad but not remembering why proof of perhaps why he actually gave her a fate worse than death. His intended treatment of Clara immoral...if also for inflicting us with the curveball plot of Hell Bent.”
“I think that Series 4 and Series 9 both explored the Doctor doing things without proper regard for the people he was doing them to. Series 4 did it with River, and later Donna. Series 9 did it with Ashildr, and saw the Doctor attempt to repeat it with Clara.
The Donna and Clara parallels were striking - in both cases he intended to wipe their memory of everything they'd done together so that they could live. With little hesitation he did it to Donna against her emotional protestations, and wiped her memory. With Clara he was going to do the same though she managed to argue that she was entitled to her past and would rather die with it in tact (we'll not go into how much of a needless mess Hell Bent made of things though). It might just be coincidence but both stories basically saw the darker side of the Doctor emerging (the so-called Timelord Victorious... I hate that phrase personally)... after losing Donna, the Doctor travelled alone for ages and ultimately strayed into the darker territory that he found himself in The End of Time. And it was the threat of losing Clara as he did that drove him to darker extremes... it just happened that a companion that was the perfect match for him was able to talk him down from that pedestal. But Clara's points seem like a valid argument that technically also apply to Donna as well - she was entitled to her past. And she never got a say, he just took her mind because he couldn't bear for her to die.
And that's also what drives his actions with River and Ashildr. In both cases he immortalises them in some way because as River puts it "he just can't give in". It can be argued that River was still technically dead by the end of the library story - her immortalisation was an actualised virtual version of her, but it wasn't actually her per se. I would say without knowing what an existence (as opposed to a life) inside the library databanks actually entails you cannot say whether or not what he did to River was right or wrong. You can make more convincing arguments where Ashildr is concerned, and where his companions are concerned - Clara ultimately made the argument for us.
RIver's situation is also quite unique because whilst it was the Tenth Doctor who ultimately uploaded her, it was the Twelfth Doctor who enabled that to happen by means of the screwdriver. He had centuries of time to consider this, away from the gut instinct emotional response he had in the moment in the library. Maybe he thought it through more than we ever actually saw, making it less an emotional response than the other examples. Also supported by the fact that the data ghost was again, not technically River herself. He immortalised her in the same (albeit futuristic) way a park bench or an obituary might.
Personal opinion, on the list of things the Doctor has done to those he loves, the way he 'saved' River isn't high on the list of things I think he did wrong. I felt his mistreatment of Martha in his post-Rose-wallowing was worse. His treatment of Donna far more emotional, and Wilf's comments about her looking so sad but not remembering why proof of perhaps why he actually gave her a fate worse than death. His intended treatment of Clara immoral...if also for inflicting us with the curveball plot of Hell Bent.”
Two points that make the points you have raised interesting:
'Clara's points seem like a valid argument that technically also apply to Donna as well - she was entitled to her past. And she never got a say, he just took her mind because he couldn't bear for her to die.'
I would say that what he did to Donna he did to preserve her life; okay she didn't want to forget him but she would have died had he not have done what he did. He had little choice. Clara was slightly different because he had already interfered. I was doing a first aid course today and we were told; if you're performing CPR and you break a rib don't worry, the most important thing is to attempt to preserve the life. I think Donna's situation mirrors this. It was either the memory wipe or death; I'm sure Donna didn't want to die, no matter how much she wanted to remember the Doctor and so I would argue that he didn't carry out an emotional response; simply the most rational response.
Second:
'RIver's situation is also quite unique because whilst it was the Tenth Doctor who ultimately uploaded her, it was the Twelfth Doctor who enabled that to happen by means of the screwdriver. He had centuries of time to consider this, away from the gut instinct emotional response he had in the moment in the library. Maybe he thought it through more than we ever actually saw, making it less an emotional response than the other examples. Also supported by the fact that the data ghost was again, not technically River herself. He immortalised her in the same (albeit futuristic) way a park bench or an obituary might.'
The question is, did he give River the screwdriver to preserve her... or did he give it her because he had already lived through the event and knew that she needed it. Without it she wouldn't have been around for TNOTD and likely countless other events; that means that she HAD to be preserved in the library for him to get to the point of being able to give her the screwdriver. Hence, paradox. He may have actually decided during those centuries that he shouldn't give her the screwdriver, that she would never be truly happy in the library. But he knew that he had to other he may die and completely mess up the timelines. Funny things paradoxes.
Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead is one of my favourite stories. River, Donna and the 10th Doctor in the same story! Superb.
The one (and only) aspect of this story I never really bought into was the whole 'data ghost' thing. I understand it as a concept and liked it as a dramatic tool.
But I just didn't believe that River ended up inside the data core of the library. For me, she very much died saving the Doctor. He then created something new in the library core that was a reflection of River (and her friends) but 100% not actually her.
Its just my personal view on what happened in this story. For me, River died a very heroic death. The 'data ghost' version of River we later saw in The Name of the Doctor just wasn't really her. For me at least.
The one (and only) aspect of this story I never really bought into was the whole 'data ghost' thing. I understand it as a concept and liked it as a dramatic tool.
But I just didn't believe that River ended up inside the data core of the library. For me, she very much died saving the Doctor. He then created something new in the library core that was a reflection of River (and her friends) but 100% not actually her.
Its just my personal view on what happened in this story. For me, River died a very heroic death. The 'data ghost' version of River we later saw in The Name of the Doctor just wasn't really her. For me at least.
Originally Posted by Mulett:
“Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead is one of my favourite stories. River, Donna and the 10th Doctor in the same story! Superb.
The one (and only) aspect of this story I never really bought into was the whole 'data ghost' thing. I understand it as a concept and liked it as a dramatic tool.
But I just didn't believe that River ended up inside the data core of the library. For me, she very much died saving the Doctor. He then created something new in the library core that was a reflection of River (and her friends) but 100% not actually her.
Its just my personal view on what happened in this story. For me, River died a very heroic death. The 'data ghost' version of River we later saw in The Name of the Doctor just wasn't really her. For me at least.”
“Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead is one of my favourite stories. River, Donna and the 10th Doctor in the same story! Superb.
The one (and only) aspect of this story I never really bought into was the whole 'data ghost' thing. I understand it as a concept and liked it as a dramatic tool.
But I just didn't believe that River ended up inside the data core of the library. For me, she very much died saving the Doctor. He then created something new in the library core that was a reflection of River (and her friends) but 100% not actually her.
Its just my personal view on what happened in this story. For me, River died a very heroic death. The 'data ghost' version of River we later saw in The Name of the Doctor just wasn't really her. For me at least.”
Actually I think that's the reality of what was intended. It may have all her memories and be an exact copy but it's not really THE River. So go ahead, believe it the way you do because that was the intention!
Originally Posted by Mulett:
“Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead is one of my favourite stories. River, Donna and the 10th Doctor in the same story! Superb.
The one (and only) aspect of this story I never really bought into was the whole 'data ghost' thing. I understand it as a concept and liked it as a dramatic tool.
But I just didn't believe that River ended up inside the data core of the library. For me, she very much died saving the Doctor. He then created something new in the library core that was a reflection of River (and her friends) but 100% not actually her.
Its just my personal view on what happened in this story. For me, River died a very heroic death. The 'data ghost' version of River we later saw in The Name of the Doctor just wasn't really her. For me at least.”
“Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead is one of my favourite stories. River, Donna and the 10th Doctor in the same story! Superb.
The one (and only) aspect of this story I never really bought into was the whole 'data ghost' thing. I understand it as a concept and liked it as a dramatic tool.
But I just didn't believe that River ended up inside the data core of the library. For me, she very much died saving the Doctor. He then created something new in the library core that was a reflection of River (and her friends) but 100% not actually her.
Its just my personal view on what happened in this story. For me, River died a very heroic death. The 'data ghost' version of River we later saw in The Name of the Doctor just wasn't really her. For me at least.”
I feel the same, which is why, when people were saying Rivers story was done after Name of the Doctor, because she'd said her goodbye, I would argue every time and point out that it was only a computer echo data ghost in that episode, and that the real River's final meeting with her furthest along version of the Doctor, was, as foretold, at the singing towers of Derillium. That was why I was very happy when we finally saw that realised on screen, as it really completed Rivers story (although obviously it's possible to show her again if they really wanted), and actually marked the only arc that Moffat has written that was both complete and satisfying to me.
Thank you for that doctor blue box and Piipp. So, I guess we could say that the Doctor's actions were never about saving River at all. It was about easing his own grief by creating something to keep her memory alive (quite literally).
Originally Posted by summer_ste:
“She had such an extraordinary life, I can't imagine she'd be happy there.”
“She had such an extraordinary life, I can't imagine she'd be happy there.”
No he shouldnt have saved her, she was dead anyway but he saved her memories so she lives in a dream forever.
I do wonder whether she actually knew she was going to die in the library anyway as im sure the 12th Doctor probably has another meeting with her.
Originally Posted by Mulett:
“Thank you for that doctor blue box and Piipp. So, I guess we could say that the Doctor's actions were never about saving River at all. It was about easing his own grief by creating something to keep her memory alive (quite literally).”
“Thank you for that doctor blue box and Piipp. So, I guess we could say that the Doctor's actions were never about saving River at all. It was about easing his own grief by creating something to keep her memory alive (quite literally).”
I don't think it was anything to do with his grief; I think he knew that he had to give her the screwdriver and hence he did so; all he did was complete the paradox. I think he was over her by Twelve to be honest.
Originally Posted by Piipp:
“I don't think it was anything to do with his grief; I think he knew that he had to give her the screwdriver and hence he did so; all he did was complete the paradox. I think he was over her by Twelve to be honest.”
“I don't think it was anything to do with his grief; I think he knew that he had to give her the screwdriver and hence he did so; all he did was complete the paradox. I think he was over her by Twelve to be honest.”
Ooh I like you lol
Originally Posted by Piipp:
“I don't think it was anything to do with his grief; I think he knew that he had to give her the screwdriver and hence he did so; all he did was complete the paradox. I think he was over her by Twelve to be honest.”
“I don't think it was anything to do with his grief; I think he knew that he had to give her the screwdriver and hence he did so; all he did was complete the paradox. I think he was over her by Twelve to be honest.”
So he's just faking it at the end of 'Husbands....' and hanging around for ? number of years for the jollies?
What a *********!
Originally Posted by Michael_Eve:
“So he's just faking it at the end of 'Husbands....' and hanging around for ? number of years for the jollies?
What a *********!”
“So he's just faking it at the end of 'Husbands....' and hanging around for ? number of years for the jollies?
What a *********!
”
Absolutely agree with you. If he was 'over' her, it would make a nonsense of much of THORS. She was his wife. She had been with him for hundreds of years, saving him and eventually dying for him. Why would he have taken her to somewhere where a night lasted for 24 years?
Originally Posted by Salcy:
“Absolutely agree with you. If he was 'over' her, it would make a nonsense of much of THORS. She was his wife. She had been with him for hundreds of years, saving him and eventually dying for him. Why would he have taken her to somewhere where a night lasted for 24 years?”
“Absolutely agree with you. If he was 'over' her, it would make a nonsense of much of THORS. She was his wife. She had been with him for hundreds of years, saving him and eventually dying for him. Why would he have taken her to somewhere where a night lasted for 24 years?”
Exactly. You could tell he still very much cared for her. Even before they got to derillium there was a scene where she mentioned that she was always promising him but cancelling at the last minute, and he said something along the lines of hoping to cancel this time, implying he clearly wasn't ready for it to be that final trip (and probably never would have been properly ready).
Yes, she was such an amazing, amazing character.
Looking back on that last scene in Forest of the Dead, knowing what we know now, it was definitely the perfect ending for her.
Alex Kingston shone very brightly during the initial two-parter in Series 4. In other words, her acting was brilliant!
I was getting quite tearful when the Twelfth Doctor handed her the 'Future Sonic Screwdriver' during the last Christmas Special. I knew that it would be the final time we would ever see River.
Looking back on that last scene in Forest of the Dead, knowing what we know now, it was definitely the perfect ending for her.
Alex Kingston shone very brightly during the initial two-parter in Series 4. In other words, her acting was brilliant!
I was getting quite tearful when the Twelfth Doctor handed her the 'Future Sonic Screwdriver' during the last Christmas Special. I knew that it would be the final time we would ever see River.
Originally Posted by Salcy:
“Absolutely agree with you. If he was 'over' her, it would make a nonsense of much of THORS. She was his wife. She had been with him for hundreds of years, saving him and eventually dying for him. Why would he have taken her to somewhere where a night lasted for 24 years?”
“Absolutely agree with you. If he was 'over' her, it would make a nonsense of much of THORS. She was his wife. She had been with him for hundreds of years, saving him and eventually dying for him. Why would he have taken her to somewhere where a night lasted for 24 years?”
I'm not sure I explained what I meant very well.
Not 'over her' as in doesn't care; 'over her' as in, he's been there, done that, knows that it has to end and he has come to terms with that and is ready to say goodbye. He doesn't like goodbyes full stop but with River he is ready to move on and let that part of his life go; after all Twelve isn't her Doctor. Of course he's upset; it's a big moment for him. I mean I'm sure a lot of us have been there ourselves with certain incarnations of the Doctor. Ready for them to go, wanting to see the next take on the character but it's still bittersweet in that you have to say goodbye to someone you have enjoyed watching in order to do so. I stand by my thoughts that the only reason Twelve gave her the screwdriver was because he knew he was supposed to; I don't for a moment think that he would have done otherwise.
It was a sad moment. He knew he had to do it. Be interesting to see how the loss affects him.
Apart from the doctor River was the only person who would have a chance at stopping Missy. Would have loved to have seen that confrontation.
Hope Rivers soul eventually found peace and was reunited with Amy and Rory.
Apart from the doctor River was the only person who would have a chance at stopping Missy. Would have loved to have seen that confrontation.
Hope Rivers soul eventually found peace and was reunited with Amy and Rory.
Originally Posted by Mulett:
“But I just didn't believe that River ended up inside the data core of the library. For me, she very much died saving the Doctor. He then created something new in the library core that was a reflection of River (and her friends) but 100% not actually her.
Its just my personal view on what happened in this story. For me, River died a very heroic death. The 'data ghost' version of River we later saw in The Name of the Doctor just wasn't really her. For me at least.”
“But I just didn't believe that River ended up inside the data core of the library. For me, she very much died saving the Doctor. He then created something new in the library core that was a reflection of River (and her friends) but 100% not actually her.
Its just my personal view on what happened in this story. For me, River died a very heroic death. The 'data ghost' version of River we later saw in The Name of the Doctor just wasn't really her. For me at least.”
Then you get into the whole philosophy of the nature of identity, which is very messy indeed. Is the Kirk that beamed down to the planet the same Kirk who left the ship? Is the Doctor the same person each time he regenerates, solely because he has the same memories? Is the real Doctor properly dead since Heaven Sent?
Originally Posted by johnnysaucepn:
“Then you get into the whole philosophy of the nature of identity, which is very messy indeed. Is the Kirk that beamed down to the planet the same Kirk who left the ship? Is the Doctor the same person each time he regenerates, solely because he has the same memories? Is the real Doctor properly dead since Heaven Sent?”
“Then you get into the whole philosophy of the nature of identity, which is very messy indeed. Is the Kirk that beamed down to the planet the same Kirk who left the ship? Is the Doctor the same person each time he regenerates, solely because he has the same memories? Is the real Doctor properly dead since Heaven Sent?”
I love all that Star Trek 'beaming' stuff. But, yes, too much philosophical debate isn't always a good thing!
Originally Posted by johnnysaucepn:
“Then you get into the whole philosophy of the nature of identity, which is very messy indeed. Is the Kirk that beamed down to the planet the same Kirk who left the ship? Is the Doctor the same person each time he regenerates, solely because he has the same memories? Is the real Doctor properly dead since Heaven Sent?”
“Then you get into the whole philosophy of the nature of identity, which is very messy indeed. Is the Kirk that beamed down to the planet the same Kirk who left the ship? Is the Doctor the same person each time he regenerates, solely because he has the same memories? Is the real Doctor properly dead since Heaven Sent?”
Yep it's interesting stuff to ponder and you can go round in circles thinking about it,for me the Doctor basically died in that episode,and whoever's wandering around in his clothes now is someone else.
But I'll ignore all that for the sake of my continued enjoyment of the show.
