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Google Pixel (Nexus) phones unveiled on 4th October
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jonmorris
23-10-2016
Is what was a £500 phone considered a bargain phone now?

Huawei is about to release a phone with a US$1300 price tag (there are cheaper variants) so is this the way you think the industry should be moving?

Is the realisation that people are keeping phones for longer going to make us all have to pay double or triple for our phones in the future?

I'm loving the XL for the faster camera and VoLTE (and that is more for the future as EE hasn't switched on 800 yet) but I am still going to take a lot of convincing that it's worth the money.

I suppose the 32GB Pixel at £600 isn't awful, but the steps beyond that seem too large. This is, as it always has been, my opinion. We can disagree, but what matters is how well the phone does.

If Google got it right, we won't see any price cuts or promotions for some considerable time - if at all - just as Apple doesn't need to.
jonmorris
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by daveh75:
“Got to play with an XL this morning briefly.

Love the new Assistant which is way better than Google Now and that was always v.good.

The Pixel Launcher is a bit meh, but I like the long press feature.

Didn't try the camera, because I couldn't care less about it. Weird I know.

The build quality is superb, but the design is just too MOR for me, If iPhone for Android was their goal then they achieved it...

It's a phone I'd buy my mum, but I don't want one.”

The camera is by far the best feature. It's great, although some reports online how suggest some unwanted halo effects on many photos that could be a lens issue. Early days, but it wouldn't be a new phone launch without problems these days!

As ever, those early reviews written in 3-4 days, never quite tell the full story.

As I said before, I'll have to review the phone with the Pixel launcher but it's a little too basic for me. As was/is the Google Now launcher. Fingers crossed, Nova can get the app shortcuts somehow.
tghe-retford
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by jonmorris:
“Is what was a £500 phone considered a bargain phone now?

Huawei is about to release a phone with a US$1300 price tag (there are cheaper variants) so is this the way you think the industry should be moving?

Is the realisation that people are keeping phones for longer going to make us all have to pay double or triple for our phones in the future?

I'm loving the XL for the faster camera and VoLTE (and that is more for the future as EE hasn't switched on 800 yet) but I am still going to take a lot of convincing that it's worth the money.

I suppose the 32GB Pixel at £600 isn't awful, but the steps beyond that seem too large. This is, as it always has been, my opinion. We can disagree, but what matters is how well the phone does.

If Google got it right, we won't see any price cuts or promotions for some considerable time - if at all - just as Apple doesn't need to.”

The biggest share of the mobile phone market are for handsets that command the premium prices. That's where the customers and the profits are. And considering how a smartphone is now at the centre of people's social lives, people are prepared to pay big. A smartphone is the one item people do not want to compromise on. Apple knew this and Google now knows this. If anything, this is also being done at the same time Google wishes to turn itself away from the affordable alternative to the premium name brand it believes it is now. Fragmentation of Android and the proliferation of handsets, particularly at the lower end of the market is not helping Google and I would think Google will jettison them off, either via a new OS or making apps or future updates exclusive to Pixel, Galaxy Sx, HTC premium and other high priced phones.

People now also use smartphones instead of tablets, with smartphones reaching the size of a small tablet, the price of a tablet can also be placed on top of a smartphone.

The lower end handsets (sub £500) are having to compromise in a number of areas, whether its on the camera, screen resolution and/or OS updates (Motorola has dumped updates for its 2015 Moto G model barely a year into its life!), the manufacturers at the lower end of the market are showing financial difficulties. Cyanogenmod is also in difficulties of its own and the money at the low end just isn't there.

I don't think people want the industry to move to premium end phones, it's a consequence of the public's hunger for a premium featured phone for a premium price as well as manufacturers realising that the profits are at that end of the market. Same reason why mobile phone networks are putting up prices and lowering data and encouraging customers to purchase more profitable data add-ons - it's where the market is, what consumers want and where the profits are.
daveh75
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by jonmorris:
“The camera is by far the best feature. It's great, although some reports online how suggest some unwanted halo effects on many photos that could be a lens issue. Early days, but it wouldn't be a new phone launch without problems these days!

.”

That maybe true, but As I said couldn't care less about the camera. All I'd ever use it for would be to scan the occasional document, QR Code or debit/credit card. And the front-facing for video calls.
tghe-retford
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by jonmorris:
“Is the realisation that people are keeping phones for longer going to make us all have to pay double or triple for our phones in the future?”

The replacement rate for smartphones is 2-4 years. Google isn't going to allow people to keep their phones for four years before upgrading. I would expect more peer pressure, incentives and disincentives for people to replace their phones at a quicker rate whilst maintaining the high resale value of premium phones as per Apple's iDevices.

http://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam...smartphone.pdf
Faust
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by daveh75:
“If iPhone for Android was their goal then they achieved it...

It's a phone I'd buy my mum, but I don't want one.”

Is this a generational thing then do you think? I'm of more senior years and I really really like the design. For me it just about has everything a smartphone should have i.e. good industrial design and the right balance of features minus manufacturers bloat. In fact an iPhone for Android.

I find the Samsung phones to flashy in a tacky sort of way. They remind me of the brash American cars of the 50s/60s.

I've seen a Pixel in a black Spigen case and my first thoughts were, if you could remove the Sony logo from my Xperia (also in black case) the two phones appear very similar and for me that can only be a good thing.
jonmorris
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by tghe-retford:
“The replacement rate for smartphones is 2-4 years. Google isn't going to allow people to keep their phones for four years before upgrading. I would expect more peer pressure, incentives and disincentives for people to replace their phones at a quicker rate whilst maintaining the high resale value of premium phones as per Apple's iDevices.

http://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam...smartphone.pdf”

I think you've got a good point there. The industry needs to make you upgrade ahead of time, and peer pressure is one of many tricks that is proven to work in the fashion, music and other industries (many would say the iPhone too, but usually people upgrade every other year).

Hardly any phone in 2016 or even last year won't do 95% of what people want to do in their phone. Even people playing games usually favour the casual games full of IAPs than stuff that presses the GPU and leaves people wanting.

Not updating old phones is a great way to make people feel they need to upgrade too, but personally I don't think we - the consumer - should tolerate it.

If you know a company won't update and support a phone, don't buy from them in the first place.
Faust
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by tghe-retford:
“People now also use smartphones instead of tablets, with smartphones reaching the size of a small tablet, the price of a tablet can also be placed on top of a smartphone.
”

I do agree with the majority of your post with the exception of the above. I don't really believe myself that many people use their phone instead of a tablet with the exception of teenagers perhaps.

Too many websites still aren't optimised sufficiently for smartphones which makes browsing a less than pleasurable experience. Forums can be pretty bad on a smartphone. Myself I still think you need a tablet in the 9 to 10 inch range.
daveh75
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by Faust:
“Is this a generational thing then do you think? I'm of more senior years and I really really like the design. For me it just about has everything a smartphone should have i.e. good industrial design and the right balance of features minus manufacturers bloat. In fact an iPhone for Android.

I find the Samsung phones to flashy in a tacky sort of way. They remind me of the brash American cars of the 50s/60s.
”

No, as much as you like to stereotype generations. I just find its design bland, safe even, just like the iPhone. And I'm not exactly young...

I appreciate good industrial design, my daily driver is a Nextbit Robin for example, and I also have a OnePlus 3.

I prefer a purer Android experience, (Oxygen OS on the 3 is a fairly clean experience ) but Google just aren't making phones I want and hasn't since the Nexus 4, I also owned the 5 but the 4 was my favourite.
jonmorris
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by Faust:
“I do agree with the majority of your post with the exception of the above. I don't really believe myself that many people use their phone instead of a tablet with the exception of teenagers perhaps.

Too many websites still aren't optimised sufficiently for smartphones which makes browsing a less than pleasurable experience. Forums can be pretty bad on a smartphone. Myself I still think you need a tablet in the 9 to 10 inch range.”

I stopped using a tablet, except for rare occasions*, when phones got bigger screens. Perhaps that is why Google has gone from 6 to 5.7 to 5.5 inch for the largest model.

There are rumours of a new Google tablet (7 inch) so maybe this is a clever plan to make tablets cool again.

* mostly watching movies.
Faust
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by jonmorris:
“
Not updating old phones is a great way to make people feel they need to upgrade too, but personally I don't think we - the consumer - should tolerate it.

If you know a company won't update and support a phone, don't buy from them in the first place.”

That would leave a huge hole in the Android market wouldn't it? Even the 'better' manufacturers only provide OS support for around 2 years with a further 1 year of security patches. How many phones actually receive the security patches in that third year though is anyones guess. Estimates put it at 'not a lot'.

This though is not always the fault of the phone maker but Google. Lots of phones won't get Nougat and much of that is because Google has uprated the Compatibility Test Suite so devices must support Vulkan or OpenGL ES 3.1. This means a lot of hardware using the Adreno 3 fail the test.
Faust
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by jonmorris:
“I stopped using a tablet, except for rare occasions*, when phones got bigger screens. Perhaps that is why Google has gone from 6 to 5.7 to 5.5 inch for the largest model.

There are rumours of a new Google tablet (7 inch) so maybe this is a clever plan to make tablets cool again.

* mostly watching movies.”

Age thing perhaps, but a phone wrecks my eyes if used for any length of time. I have to have a 10 inch tablet and don't forget us 'greys' are an expanding part of the market, it's an ageing population.
daveh75
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by jonmorris:
“I stopped using a tablet, except for rare occasions*, when phones got bigger screens.

.”

Ditto. Same for most around me. They're either gathering dust, or haven't been replaced when they've died
jonmorris
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by Faust:
“That would leave a huge hole in the Android market wouldn't it? Even the 'better' manufacturers only provide OS support for around 2 years with a further 1 year of security patches. How many phones actually receive the security patches in that third year though is anyones guess. Estimates put it at 'not a lot'.

This though is not always the fault of the phone maker but Google. Lots of phones won't get Nougat and much of that is because Google has uprated the Compatibility Test Suite so devices must support Vulkan or OpenGL ES 3.1. This means a lot of hardware using the Adreno 3 fail the test.”

Not everyone is worried about buying a phone tomorrow and having it get lots of new features, often a new look and maybe a revised UI that some people will go 'what's this? I don't like it.. can I have the old one back?'.

Bug fixes are important. Security updates useful (I've said before, most exploits require people doing silly things or even access to a device*) but a new OS? Remember, Android updates Play Services, Gmail, Chrome, the keyboard, the store, the media players with routine updates via the Play Store. Most people on Android 4.4 onwards (I think) can enjoy all the latest apps.

* On the Pixel, you can copy data with a USB lead - which is a cool feature - but when you do so, there's a notification that stays on the display for 30 minutes and cannot be removed (even if you reboot) so as to warn someone that their data has been extracted. It's quite a good security feature, as someone might otherwise attempt to steal data if you left your phone unattended in an office for a few minutes.
jonmorris
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by daveh75:
“Ditto. Same for most around me. They're either gathering dust, or haven't been replaced when they've died”

My wife bought a Galaxy Tab S and what a waste of time. She barely used it and Samsung hardly ever do updates. I'd never buy a Samsung tablet again. But, my wife wasn't worried. Her reasons for not using it is because she also got a 6P and now does everything on her phone.

I still use a LTE enabled Nexus 7 (2013) and it's fine. It doesn't lag, has a great screen, can get me online when I'm away from Wi-Fi and even has wireless charging. Given the reduced margins, manufacturers now selling tablets seem to have gone from full HD and QHD resolutions and dropped to 1280x800 or even 1024x600, and made loads of other cuts to try and make a tablet appealing at under £100. Even Amazon's new tablets are weaker than what they replaced.

I have no idea if Apple is having any success with the iPad Pro, but unless you can sell a tablet for productivity reasons, I doubt there's much future in them.
Faust
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by jonmorris:
“My wife bought a Galaxy Tab S and what a waste of time. She barely used it and Samsung hardly ever do updates. I'd never buy a Samsung tablet again. But, my wife wasn't worried. Her reasons for not using it is because she also got a 6P and now does everything on her phone.

I still use a LTE enabled Nexus 7 (2013) and it's fine. It doesn't lag, has a great screen, can get me online when I'm away from Wi-Fi and even has wireless charging. Given the reduced margins, manufacturers now selling tablets seem to have gone from full HD and QHD resolutions and dropped to 1280x800 or even 1024x600, and made loads of other cuts to try and make a tablet appealing at under £100. Even Amazon's new tablets are weaker than what they replaced.

I have no idea if Apple is having any success with the iPad Pro, but unless you can sell a tablet for productivity reasons, I doubt there's much future in them.”

There's no future in a race to the bottom, history demonstrates this quite well. You have to make a quality product which should also be aspirational i.e. 'premium'. Tablets sales are going from strength to strength for the older demographic age group. This has to some extent cushioned falling sales from younger folk. Manufacturers also know the older age group have more disposable income although we are a harder sell.
jonmorris
23-10-2016
My mum who is nearly 70 doesn't use her iPad 2 anymore, she uses a Galaxy S6 and is happy. Admittedly, a lot of what stopped her using it was also down to switching from an iPhone to Android.

My dad switched too, and he is almost 70 too, and he has an iPad Air which my son watches when we go there; otherwise it's not used at all. But he's got a Nexus 6 and doesn't see the point in having a tablet now.

He is still lucky enough to have good eyesight, and both of them still work (self employed) and he prefers the Nexus 6 because he needs to be able to read PDFs when out - and it's easier to carry than a tablet.

Obviously two people doesn't translate for the whole world, but I'm not sure all old people are clamouring for tablets. You do make a point about eyesight and ease of use/accessibility, but are people buying expensive tablets or going to Tesco, Argos etc and buying a 10-inch tablet with a pretty poor spec? (Poor in comparison, as I can't see that a lot of people would struggle to get by in reality).
Faust
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by jonmorris:
“My mum who is nearly 70 doesn't use her iPad 2 anymore, she uses a Galaxy S6 and is happy. Admittedly, a lot of what stopped her using it was also down to switching from an iPhone to Android.

My dad switched too, and he is almost 70 too, and he has an iPad Air which my son watches when we go there; otherwise it's not used at all. But he's got a Nexus 6 and doesn't see the point in having a tablet now.

He is still lucky enough to have good eyesight, and both of them still work (self employed) and he prefers the Nexus 6 because he needs to be able to read PDFs when out - and it's easier to carry than a tablet.

Obviously two people doesn't translate for the whole world, but I'm not sure all old people are clamouring for tablets. You do make a point about eyesight and ease of use/accessibility, but are people buying expensive tablets or going to Tesco, Argos etc and buying a 10-inch tablet with a pretty poor spec? (Poor in comparison, as I can't see that a lot of people would struggle to get by in reality).”

It depends on what you need really. I doubt your parents could do much in the way of productivity on their smartphones? My tablet only gets used for browsing when I'm in the lounge, my phone when I'm out and about. For anything else it's my Mac desktop. I really couldn't imagine life without a nice desktop computer. For those that no longer have one I always say they probably never needed one in the first place but at the time there wasn't really an alternative.

Last set for figures for iPad sales 21.4 million. However, this is a mature market.
jonmorris
23-10-2016
Yes, they do use a desktop too. Well, it's a Surface Pro 2 that's docked (cost a pretty penny). There was a plan to take the computer when they went on holiday, but now it's just docked all the time!

The computer is for the data entry stuff, where even an iPad with a keyboard would probably be too small, and the phones are for consumption.

It's interesting how things change (perhaps there should be a new thread about the future of tablets) because I used to review portable satnavs. Now I use my phone, which has a better screen, better battery life, connectivity for traffic (sure some PNDs do too, but they're a lot more expensive and often have subscriptions) so that's something that I once relied on heavily that is going the same way.

Garmin sent me one recently which has a dashcam built in, and it's a clever way to reinvigorate the market, but it's slow and clunky. I'd recommend keeping a phone based solution and getting a standalone dashcam.

Anyone remember when media players were all the rage, and digital photo frames? I do sometimes wonder if smartwatches may go the same way as they're just not selling to the masses (and I say that as someone who does wear one every day).
Faust
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by jonmorris:
“It's interesting how things change (perhaps there should be a new thread about the future of tablets) because I used to review portable satnavs. Now I use my phone, which has a better screen, better battery life, connectivity for traffic (sure some PNDs do too, but they're a lot more expensive and often have subscriptions) so that's something that I once relied on heavily that is going the same way.

Garmin sent me one recently which has a dashcam built in, and it's a clever way to reinvigorate the market, but it's slow and clunky. I'd recommend keeping a phone based solution and getting a standalone dashcam.”

Now it's odd you should mention SatNavs. I am just looking to replace my ageing TomTom and guess what - I'm looking to replace it with another TomTom. I have tried using my phone for SatNav and I just can't get used to it. There is also the issue of data usage of course. I know you can download a route before you set off but for me TomTom is still the best way to navigate your way around the UK, Europe or the world for that matter.
BKM
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by Faust:
“Now it's odd you should mention SatNavs. I am just looking to replace my ageing TomTom and guess what - I'm looking to replace it with another TomTom. I have tried using my phone for SatNav and I just can't get used to it. There is also the issue of data usage of course. I know you can download a route before you set off but for me TomTom is still the best way to navigate your way around the UK, Europe or the world for that matter.”

Unless it has changed very recently sales of Satnav were red-lining due to smartphones. There are several free Apps (navmii and Here for two) - plus TomTom themselves and others paid for - all can cache all the data on the phone
jonmorris
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by Faust:
“Now it's odd you should mention SatNavs. I am just looking to replace my ageing TomTom and guess what - I'm looking to replace it with another TomTom. I have tried using my phone for SatNav and I just can't get used to it. There is also the issue of data usage of course. I know you can download a route before you set off but for me TomTom is still the best way to navigate your way around the UK, Europe or the world for that matter.”

I use TomTom on my phone. It's fantastic. Bigger screen and higher resolution, faster refresh (and route recalculating), I can listen to music on Spotify in the background and it fades out the volume of the music for the announcements (all of which is played via Bluetooth through my car audio system) and I get regular traffic updates.

The interface on the latest mobile app is that of the portable systems.

Download it as you get 50 miles for free to see if you like it before paying your annual (or three-year) subscription. All maps are stored on your device just as they would be on a standalone.

Seeing as I'm way off topic, I recommend a dashcam too. They're cheap these days, but no doubt car makers will include cameras in future cars so that's another market that's here today, gone tomorrow (most likely).
Faust
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by daveh75:
“No, as much as you like to stereotype generations. I just find its design bland, safe even, just like the iPhone. And I'm not exactly young...

I appreciate good industrial design, my daily driver is a Nextbit Robin for example, and I also have a OnePlus 3.

I prefer a purer Android experience, (Oxygen OS on the 3 is a fairly clean experience ) but Google just aren't making phones I want and hasn't since the Nexus 4, I also owned the 5 but the 4 was my favourite.”

It appears from your reply that you are not a premium purchaser but look instead for perceived bargains. The OP3 looks a great bargain on paper. However, I have always believed if it looks to be too good to be true it probably is.

Bland is good, bland never goes out of fashion and never clashes with anything else. For me at present the iPhone and the Pixel are the only game in town.
jonmorris
23-10-2016
The OnePlus 3 is not too good to be true. It's a cracking phone, with the same chipset as both Pixel phones.

Snapdragon 821 is just 820 clocked higher. Snapdragon 801 was 800. Qualcomm and others do this because manufacturers want to be able to sell a new phone with the 'latest' chipset, so it's not as if the Pixel has any stupendous hardware inside that nobody else has ever done, or could do, or will do.

Snapdragon 830 is the next step and that will come next year. Perhaps early next year. If Samsung is going to use it, it could mean February next year - or sooner if the company decides to bring forward its schedule because of the Note 7 problems.

Naturally, then everyone will be saying the only game in town is the iPhone and the <Samsung S7 successor>, whatever that might be called.

Perhaps this is a problem with releasing devices at this time of year, as the 6P was a Snapdragon 810 phone that was late in the day. Arguably some issues were addressed when it came to overheating, so that was a plus, but if Google wants to be ahead of the pack then it might need to work a bit closer with Qualcomm and fall into line with its roadmap.
Faust
23-10-2016
Originally Posted by jonmorris:
“
The interface on the latest mobile app is that of the portable systems.

Download it as you get 50 miles for free to see if you like it before paying your annual (or three-year) subscription. All maps are stored on your device just as they would be on a standalone.
”

How much storage is that taking up UK maps?

Only issue is cradle, which I hate. I prefer using a bean bag on top of dashboard. They are moved in a second and leave no unsightly marks on the windscreen nor do you need to deface dash for cradle if dash mounting.
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