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RTE Long Wave 252 reprieve ?
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oscar1
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by lundavra:
“I would not have it would be impossible to put the noon shipping forecast on DAB as a secondary service. But why is the shipping forecast necessary, hardly anyone uses it. The MCA put out forecasts on VHF all day, most vessels have electronic systems to get the forecasts and gale warnings.”

See my post above yours ... I can give you the names of at least 20 people who listen to the LW shipping forecast ---- not everyone carries a marine VHF radio around with them and they are not always on their boats.
They use the forecast to plan ahead ...
Regards
lundavra
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by oscar1:
“The shipping forecast isn't just for large boats ---- it's also for dinghy sailors,pleasure craft ,inshore fishermen and anyone who lives on the coast (and inland) --- in other words anyone who needs an up to date forecast and isn't near the internet,mobile phone coverage or in range of a Coastguard station to get the every 3 hours forecast.
I'm lucky --- I have a hand held VHF radio and a local Coastguard mast ..
Regards”

MCA VHF coverage around the coast is pretty good, I doubt whether many small boats around out of range of it for long.

You don't see many fishing boats without at least one satellite antenna, I think they have one for their man overboard system.

The smaller boats will not be venturing far and should have VHF for local warnings which they will not heard on the shipping forecasts.
oscar1
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by lundavra:
“MCA VHF coverage around the coast is pretty good, I doubt whether many small boats around out of range of it for long.

You don't see many fishing boats without at least one satellite antenna, I think they have one for their man overboard system.

The smaller boats will not be venturing far and should have VHF for local warnings which they will not heard on the shipping forecasts.”

You didn't get my point that a lot of boat owners ,dinghy sailors , kayakers,commercial fishermen --- anyone who uses the coast of the UK do not carry VHF Marine radios around with them but they do have access to LW be it at home or in the car.
Do you live near the coast ?
If you own a boat, be it big or small, how do you get your weather forecast to plan your boating activity apart from the TV weather?
Regards
Colin_London
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by oscar1:
“You didn't get my point that a lot of boat owners ,dinghy sailors , kayakers,commercial fishermen --- anyone who uses the coast of the UK do not carry VHF Marine radios around with them but they do have access to LW be it at home or in the car.
Do you live near the coast ?
If you own a boat, be it big or small, how do you get your weather forecast to plan your boating activity apart from the TV weather?
Regards”

On the Met Office website on your mobile phone or home PC is the obvious answer for the masses.

More people have a Mobile phone than a long wave Radio I would wager.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/mobile/m...pping-forecast

And how much more convenient it is having it to hand immediately rather than waiting for a broadcast.
hanssolo
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by oscar1:
“You didn't get my point that a lot of boat owners ,dinghy sailors , kayakers,commercial fishermen --- anyone who uses the coast of the UK do not carry VHF Marine radios around with them but they do have access to LW be it at home or in the car.
Do you live near the coast ?
If you own a boat, be it big or small, how do you get your weather forecast to plan your boating activity apart from the TV weather?
Regards”

It will be another 5 years till 198 closes and other platforms can be used for shipping.
If Droitwich has a major failure before then 5 live AM could take it?

252 however might have less than a year for existing listeners to move to internet or satellite.
oscar1
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by Colin_London:
“On the Met Office website on your mobile phone or home PC is the obvious answer for the masses.

More people have a Mobile phone than a long wave Radio I would wager.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/mobile/m...pping-forecast

And how much more convenient it is having it to hand immediately rather than waiting for a broadcast.”

You missed this bit from that site ----
Caution: The internet is not part of the Maritime Safety Information system and should never be relied upon as the only means to obtain the latest forecast and warning information. Access to the service may be interrupted or delayed from time to time, updates may also be delayed. Please refer to GMDSS services, INMARSAT SafetyNET or international NAVTEX for the latest information. When using these web pages, always check that the page on your screen is not from your cache. Use the Refresh or Reload button if in any doubt.

Regards
Colin_London
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by oscar1:
“You missed this bit from that site ----
Caution: The internet is not part of the Maritime Safety Information system and should never be relied upon as the only means to obtain the latest forecast and warning information. Access to the service may be interrupted or delayed from time to time, updates may also be delayed. Please refer to GMDSS services, INMARSAT SafetyNET or international NAVTEX for the latest information. When using these web pages, always check that the page on your screen is not from your cache. Use the Refresh or Reload button if in any doubt.

Regards”

And those services are indeed the ones to use if you need immediate up to date information including emergency events.

But you will notice that Radio 4 LW isn't on that list either, and if you are one of the more 'leisure' users you listed the met office service should suffice. It's still updated as regularly as the forecast is broadcast.

Basically the disclaimer is to prevent commercial users relying on the free service and then blaming the met office for inaccuracies. The met office can't be seen to be undercutting commercial services.
spanners
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by Colin_London:
“On the Met Office website on your mobile phone or home PC is the obvious answer for the masses.

More people have a Mobile phone than a long wave Radio I would wager.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/mobile/m...pping-forecast

And how much more convenient it is having it to hand immediately rather than waiting for a broadcast.”

And how many miles out exactly do you think that a mobile phone signal will be receivable? Just asking.
spanners
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by Colin_London:
“But you will notice that Radio 4 LW isn't on that list either, and if you are one of the more 'leisure' users you listed the met office service should suffice.”

That's because it's mentioned on a different page:

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/guide/weather/marine/radio
Colin_London
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by spanners:
“And how many miles out exactly do you think that a mobile phone signal will be receivable? Just asking.”

Hang on, we were talking about leisure users.

Leisure users plan for short trips before they leave home and are out for a couple of hours.

If you need updates whilst far out at sea then you are either on a high seas voyage or a commercial user, and in both those cases you'll have one of the commercial services listed because you legally have to have those safety systems.

We have had this argument so many times on these boards - there are many and varied better systems for getting the information required to maritime users than long wave broadcasts a couple of times per day.
Colin_London
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by spanners:
“That's because it's mentioned on a different page:

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/guide/weather/marine/radio”

But not in the context of being relied upon for immediate up to date information. It can't be because by its nature it is only broadcast a few times per day.
oscar1
22-11-2016
The LW shipping forecast remains a huge source of weather information for UK waters --- it is quick and easy to access through out the UK when it is transmitted as it has been for years.
Regards
hanssolo
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by oscar1:
“The LW shipping forecast remains a huge source of weather information for UK waters --- it is quick and easy to access through out the UK when it is transmitted as it has been for years.
Regards”

Its possible in 5 years time when 198 LW closes a daily shipping forecast could remain on FM, DAB, internet and satellite? But by then 24 hour low cost Navext sets based on tablets will be more common.
lundavra
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by oscar1:
“You didn't get my point that a lot of boat owners ,dinghy sailors , kayakers,commercial fishermen --- anyone who uses the coast of the UK do not carry VHF Marine radios around with them but they do have access to LW be it at home or in the car.
Do you live near the coast ?
If you own a boat, be it big or small, how do you get your weather forecast to plan your boating activity apart from the TV weather?
Regards”

They are more likely to have a VHF radio than a portable Long Wave radio id in a kayak or dinghy. Anything bigger they are almost certain to have a proper VHF transceiver especially commercial fishermen most of whom with have satcom.

I do live right on the coast and even though not have a boat I do spend a lot of time around boats shoreside - I have never once heard the strains of the Long Wave forecast coming from a boat (usually when they leave their microphone jammed on, it is Radio 2 they retransmit on Channel 16).

I would expect someone checking the forecast at home (many don't seem to bother from what the coastguard say!) will look online and print it out.
lundavra
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by oscar1:
“You missed this bit from that site ----
Caution: The internet is not part of the Maritime Safety Information system and should never be relied upon as the only means to obtain the latest forecast and warning information. Access to the service may be interrupted or delayed from time to time, updates may also be delayed. Please refer to GMDSS services, INMARSAT SafetyNET or international NAVTEX for the latest information. When using these web pages, always check that the page on your screen is not from your cache. Use the Refresh or Reload button if in any doubt.

Regards”

Don't they also warn them not to rely on GPS but most do.

You often hear yachties asking the coastguard to repeat the local forecast because they missed it.
lundavra
22-11-2016
Originally Posted by Colin_London:
“Hang on, we were talking about leisure users.

Leisure users plan for short trips before they leave home and are out for a couple of hours.

If you need updates whilst far out at sea then you are either on a high seas voyage or a commercial user, and in both those cases you'll have one of the commercial services listed because you legally have to have those safety systems.

We have had this argument so many times on these boards - there are many and varied better systems for getting the information required to maritime users than long wave broadcasts a couple of times per day.”

And with the cost anything bigger than a dinghy, they can easily afford NAVTEX etc even if it does mean a few less bottles of gin on board.
oscar1
22-11-2016
I do it differently ---- I listen to the shipping forecast BEFORE going out ---- I plan my boating activities around what they say.
Of course I also carry a VHF radio and mobile phone + spare engine ,flares,sails, whistle and oars. Mobile phone is useless when close in under cliffs but VHF works fine due to the position of the local mast.
But if the weather is forecast to be iffy then stay ashore ---- unlike some of the clowns we get visiting here who have towed their boats for miles on holiday and will use them come hell or high water ---- but that is another topic .
Regards
Maggie_King
22-11-2016
Getting back to RTE LW - I wonder what work exactly is going to be done at clarkstown tomorrow ?
Maggie_King
03-12-2016
it's hard to believe that it's fifteen years this month since Atlantic 252 closed down. http://www.mixcloud.com/Energy80s/at...-tribute-show/
spanners
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by oscar1:
“The LW shipping forecast remains a huge source of weather information for UK waters --- it is quick and easy to access through out the UK when it is transmitted as it has been for years.
Regards”

There's an interesting piece by James Cridland following tests carried out on DAB+ reception over water in anticipation of the FM switch off in Norway next year.

http://www.radioworld.com/article/no...e-water/280096

Conclusion of the piece:

Quote:
““The reception was even better than our calculations predicted,” said Vasaasen. “Our aim is to offer DAB reception 50 kilometers (30 miles) from the shore, and with the external, marine antenna this was always possible within this range corresponding to the coverage map and even much further.””

In fact reception was still possible 82 miles from land on a portable Sony DAB+ radio.
lundavra
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by hanssolo:
“Its possible in 5 years time when 198 LW closes a daily shipping forecast could remain on FM, DAB, internet and satellite? But by then 24 hour low cost Navext sets based on tablets will be more common.”

I thought there are regularly shipping weather forecasts on "FM", from the MCA? OK, it is NBFM but still FM. I don't see the need for duplication.
Fred Rickwood
05-12-2016
Originally Posted by Maggie_King:
“it's hard to believe that it's fifteen years this month since Atlantic 252 closed down. http://www.mixcloud.com/Energy80s/at...-tribute-show/”

Shame they ruined it by changing the format of the station from classic rock to dance. That's what killed it in the end. The classic rock format worked quite well on AM.

Personally, I think RTE would have been better staying on 567 kHz rather than 252 long wave. Are the masts at Tullamore and Athlone still in place or have they been dismantled ?

It's a shame there's nothing on MW from the ROI apart from Spirit Radio on 549khz.

DAB in the ROI also sucks. FM is still very much the norm in the country.
swb1964
05-12-2016
When did Atlantic 252 have a classic rock format?
hanssolo
05-12-2016
Listening of Atlantic 252 had already declined die to new UK commercial FM stations before RTL tried new formats and then giving up LW.

RTE in Ireland are saying Radio 1 extra on digital platforms have the LW optouts so LW is no longer needed in Ireland. RTE have funding problems so is also why DAB has not been fully rolled out. They and the commercial operators.
The UK FM and AM transmitters are nearly all near 30 years old so there is a good case for a DSO but Ireland does not have this problem so RTE, TWG(News Corp) and Communicorp do not have the need to move to move to DAB+. But might be News corp could at sometime get the Irish Government approval to roll out a Irish Talksport amd maybe Virgin on DAB+. Presumably News Corp are not interested on an Irish Talksport taking over 252?

Originally Posted by lundavra:
“I thought there are regularly shipping weather forecasts on "FM", from the MCA? OK, it is NBFM but still FM. I don't see the need for duplication.”

These must be on the Marine radio at 150-160Mhz but the sets are not as cheap as regular radio sets which is why the Norwegians are testing DAB+ Sony set at 82 km at sea, but does need high DAB+ broadcast masts near the coast to get the signals over the horizon and many existing masts are more inland which if the UK does have a DSO means new DAB masts along coasts to ensure the shipping forecast, if it carries on R4, can be used at sea.

In Iceland they are also testing MW to replace LW. But wonder if it is now more cost effective to get boat owners to get proper Navtext sets using MW rather than pay for expensive broadcast masts to cover a small number of users at sea.
lundavra
05-12-2016
Originally Posted by hanssolo:
“These must be on the Marine radio at 150-160Mhz but the sets are not as cheap as regular radio sets which is why the Norwegians are testing DAB+ Sony set at 82 km at sea, but does need high DAB+ broadcast masts near the coast to get the signals over the horizon and many existing masts are more inland which if the UK does have a DSO means new DAB masts along coasts to ensure the shipping forecast, if it carries on R4, can be used at sea.”

Anyone venturing out of the harbour is sure to have a marine VHF radio - if they can afford the boat then they can afford the radio! Scanners and specialised receivers are not expensive, if they live a long way from the coast then they can easily check online or a premium rate telephone service could be used.

I can't see the MCA paying for DAB+ sites around the coast when they already have their Marine Band sites and NAVTEX of course.
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