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Old 07-10-2016, 02:22
Amazee-Dayzee
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Even though Kathy sort of deserves it for choosing to stay with her scumbag ex-husband and fake her death and ship Ben off to Phil where he was emotionally abused over the years, I still find it a bit hard to watch Ben's attitude towards Kathy. BEFORE she told him about Diane Atmore and what she and Pam did. I don't know about anybody else butIf I talked to my mother like that in that tone of voice I would have the taste slapped out of my mouth.

Just wanted to see people's take on it.
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Old 07-10-2016, 02:50
All Of Me
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Having Phil and Kathy as parents he would have been better off going into care.
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Old 07-10-2016, 04:08
Jimmy Connors
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Having Phil and Kathy as parents he would have been better off going into care.
I never had Kathy for most of his childhood, he had a merry assortment of different women.
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Old 07-10-2016, 05:30
Jimmy Connors
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I meant He, not I ....
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Old 07-10-2016, 08:09
joe gillott
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It's disgusting. Phil raised him to become an angry person who lashes out at everything.
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Old 07-10-2016, 08:29
kitkat1971
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Generally I'd agree that it is an appalling way to speak to a parent and I certainly would never have spoken to my Mother like it, and if I had I would have had a similar reaction to the one described by the OP from my father if he heard me - even when I was middle aged.

But, I can't bring myself to feel badly about Kathy as she acted in a way so unmotherly (so inhumane actually) by allowing Ben and Ian (especially Ben who was a vulnerable child) to believe she was dead, she has lost all rights to be treated with the love, respect and concern a Mother should be.

As I said time and time again when theories of how Kathy could come back would be floated pre 30th Anniversary, any 'believable' wau they could bring her back like faking her death, would be so out of character that she wouldn't be Kathy any more so there was no point.

That has been borne out. Old Kathy would never have stood for being spoken to the way Ben does but they can't really have her object as if she does, he could quite rightly retort with "who are you to lecture me, you let me think you were dead for 10 years". If he didn't say it, I would be to the screen at home.

Same anytime she tries to be a moral voice or dish out some tough love.

I did find her reaction to Pam talking about how all killers usually have a reason in their background for having behaved the way they did. She immediately leaped to being accused of having been responsible for Heather's death and didn't like it one bit but there is a modicom of truth in it.

Of course Ben might always have turned out "his father's son" and with this need to gain his approval and act against him in equal measures. He might have been mixed up a different way if brought up by Gavin (probably would have). But, there can be no doubt that the circumstances which led to Ben hitting Heather were caused by his toxic relationship with Phil, his need to get away as he was scared what Phil would do to him when released from Prison after Ben had stalked him and set him up. And he did that as revenge for Phil's attitude to him being sensitive, not a real Mitchell and finally gay.

All of which would probably have been better if Kathy had been around to temper it, or even had kept him away from Phil all together as she originally set out to do when she moved to SA.
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Old 07-10-2016, 08:32
_elly001
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I don't mind Ben's treatment of Kathy provided they make it into a storyline that sees some growth from both characters and not just a way for a Mitchell man to be vile to a woman with no consequences, which is what we got under DTC.

Ben's behaviour makes sense to me with Kathy, and Kathy's behaviour makes sense to me with Ben. Ben is angry with Kathy for a great many things, the most obvious being the effect that not having a stable mother figure had on his life. Although it's nobody's fault but his own that he went to prison, where his issues REALLY started, you can see why he got so screwed up in the head when you look at his childhood. Now that Kathy's back, you can't just expect him to forgive and forget, especially when as soon as he starts to push her away, she listens to him and goes, as we saw last night. That's not what he actually wants, and a more confident parent would ignore that anger and reach through it until they could reach a place of comfort, but that's the point; Kathy DOESN'T have the confidence. She blames herself for all of Ben's issues and feels hypocritical when she looks at the problems he has.

I find their relationship very interesting but I do think they need to start acknowledging some of these issues and working through them. Ben is still in a very raw place at the moment from Paul's death but I'd welcome his next storyline being some introspective scenes with Kathy where they really start to address these feelings.
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Old 07-10-2016, 08:41
Ten_Ben
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I can buy it. He's damaged goods and his reactions are always going to be explosive and unpredictable. He struggles to trust anyone other than Jay and maybe Ian. He desperately wants a proper relationship with Phil and wants Phil to accept him for who is is, which Phil can't do. He failed at looking after Phil's businesses which doesn't help. Kathy missed out on most of his formulative years and wasn't there when he needed her, something which he sees as unforgivable, especially as her sending him back to England allowed Stella to get her claws into him. Then there's the attack on Jordan and the killing of Ev and two stretches inside. He's volatile and distrusting, whilst desperate for acceptance. None of which is unreasonable given everything he's been through (plus it gives the writers plenty of scope ).
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Old 07-10-2016, 08:57
LHolmes
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Whilst I see the arguments if she hadn’t ‘died’ then Ben wouldn’t have been there or if she’d have been around she could’ve balanced Phil's parenting out as fair ones, ultimately the blame for Phil’s awful parenting is on him.

You shouldn’t need the other parent around to do a good job. Kathy didn’t for years. (I presume Gavin's controlling behaviour peaked in the last few years under the stresses of being on the run, hence how Ian was able to visit Kathy before that and not pick up on anything.)

Ben was originally assigned to Ian's care though you could argue it was inevitable he'd end up at Phil's. However, the worst of Phil happened after Kathy had left the Square. She wasn't around to witness it. But I suppose it could also be argued that Ian would've kept her updated on Phil's antics over the phone between 2000-2006.

It's difficult to tell whether Ben's stand-offish attitude and shouting at Kathy has anything to do with their relationship specifically. It comes and goes and Ben is a bit like that in general. Highly-strung. We've seen it with others too. So it's hard to ascertain just how he feels. There's an interesting story there about them struggling to bond without Ben kicking off every five minutes. I hope SOC looks into it more.

Ben giving Phil the time of day is a SOR never mind Kathy. This is a man who drove him to murder then stripped him and dumped him by a roadside to humiliate him. This was after he'd been abused by Stella. Phil didn't get Ben any help after Stella. In fact he then invited another woman into the house in Suzy who didn't like Ben and who didn't even try to hide her disdain for him. Phil emotionally abused Ben for years touting Jay as the son he'd never had in front of him. I'm surprised in that case that Jay and Ben are so close. If Phil had always done right by Ben then Ben's stance of loyalty, if indeed that's what this is, would make more sense.
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Old 07-10-2016, 09:15
LHolmes
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I can buy it. He's damaged goods and his reactions are always going to be explosive and unpredictable. He struggles to trust anyone other than Jay and maybe Ian. He desperately wants a proper relationship with Phil and wants Phil to accept him for who is is, which Phil can't do. He failed at looking after Phil's businesses which doesn't help. Kathy missed out on most of his formulative years and wasn't there when he needed her, something which he sees as unforgivable, especially as her sending him back to England allowed Stella to get her claws into him. Then there's the attack on Jordan and the killing of Ev and two stretches inside. He's volatile and distrusting, whilst desperate for acceptance. None of which is unreasonable given everything he's been through (plus it gives the writers plenty of scope ).
On the surface of it Stella was very credible and the last person you'd expect to be abusing a child. As is often the case.

Life is full of what ifs and sequences of events that build up to bad things but nobody is to blame for Stella abusing Ben but Stella. Peggy and Phil lived under the same roof and didn't spot anything. Ian was just across the road and the same applies to him. It was in the aftermath where Phil made mistakes. He didn't get Ben any counselling then got involved with another woman who didn't like Ben. Suzy didn't abuse Ben but she didn't care for him and that much was obvious. So soon after Stella, Ben didn't need a woman like that in his life. When Ben started exhibiting worrying behaviour with his copycat abuse of Louise Phil's response was to punch him.

I'd like to see the show address once and for all Ben's relationships with both Phil and Kathy who've made massive mistakes. Although Ben seems more into the Mitchells and still thinks a lot of his dad he still has that disconnect thing going on with Phil a lot of the time that sometimes comes across with Kathy.
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Old 07-10-2016, 11:44
kitkat1971
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One of the few things that I have actually liked about Kathy's return is the way Ian and Ben treat her.

On the face of it, most of the time, after initial anger or bewilderment (very short in Ian's case) they were just pleased to have her back. Her acceptance of Ben's homosexuality, even saying she'd guessed before she'd died, seemed to be the breakthrough with him.

But, when the pressure is on with Ben, when he has been really hurt, their instinctive reaction is to push her away. Ian is doing it as well, straight after Paul's death Ian was saying that he and Phil should handle it, not Kathy.

That makes sense to me as, whatever mistakes they've made (and Phil has made a lot), whatever differences they have had, they are the people that have been there for Ben for the last 10 years so there is a bond that Kathy just doesn't have, and probably never will have (though she can build a different bond) and deep down, even though they are pleased she is back, Ian and Ben just don't trust her.

It's been subtly done but I think it is realistic and i'm sorry, but I do think Kathy deserves it. So, i'd guess, does she which is why she doesn't fight back and insist on staying during those situations.

Ben is pretty horrible to everybody when upset - that's the Mitchell in him.

Of course Phil has to take ultimate responsibility re the way he parented Ben with all the "be a Mitchell, slap him dahn" stuff with people like Peggy and Ronnie probably (unintentionally) making it worse by encouraging him to do things like dancing but telling him to keep it secret from Phil. Children take being told to keep things secret as the same thing as doing something wrong or shameful so that was very much giving mixed messages.

As i say, there is nothing to say that he wouldn't have grown up the same, or his problems wouldnk( have manifested differently if Kathy had stayed alive and had co-parented with Phil, or he'd just had Phil as this 'mystery' figure who he had little contact with but ideolised what he knew.

But it is rather hard to imagine how it could have gone worse. And whilst Phil's worst actions might have been after she left, I find it hard to believe that Ian wouldn't have relayed things like what led to Phil being shot, Lisa being desperate to run away with Louise, Phil leaving her a gibbering wreck when he took the baby back, the fued with the Watts etc.

Also, part of the reason that Kathy left was that she was finding Phil's behaviour regarding her and Ben unacceptable, that he was too controlling and aggressive. His alcoholism and violence towards her had also happened pre 99. So she should have known enough to know that Phil wouldn't just accept Ian raising Ben and that Phil wasn't stable enough to be a good single parent.
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Old 07-10-2016, 12:57
Collins1965
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Ben could have been so different is Kathy had raised him with love and acceptance rather than Phil who could not accept who he was - a gentle little boy who loved musicals and hated boxing. Phil knew he was likely to be gay and rejected that part of him from the get go.

Hence all the repressed anger and self hatred years down the line. Poor old Hev paid the ultimate price for it. And Ben still cannot control his anger.

So whilst the daughter in me and the mother in me loathed the way Ben spoke to Kathy and treats in in general Kathy knows fine well she has played as much a part in it by her abandonment as Phil has by his rejection. But Ben is an adult now and I would really love him to get the help he needs and be the man he was always meant to be. But this is EE so I highly doubt it.
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Old 07-10-2016, 13:07
TLC1098
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Ben can be nice but he also has a very dangerous, scary temper.
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Old 07-10-2016, 13:18
soap-lea
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DEAD kathy lost the right to call herself his mother when she left him to Phil and "pretended" to be dead.

Why should he show her any respect. Given that you say Phil emotionally abused the lad and Kathy didnt give a stuff and let him to it then she should shoulder a large portion of the blame and if I was Ben,I wouldn't give her the time of day.

She decided she didn't want to be his mother when she pretended to be dead. She can't just pick and choose when she wants to be a mother.
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Old 07-10-2016, 13:32
FusionFury
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I'd like to see more scenes with Ben and Ian

Maybe Ben will help Ian with Steven? Give him a good kicking he deserves..
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Old 07-10-2016, 15:08
Zarla
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I can buy it. He's damaged goods and his reactions are always going to be explosive and unpredictable. He struggles to trust anyone other than Jay and maybe Ian. He desperately wants a proper relationship with Phil and wants Phil to accept him for who is is, which Phil can't do. He failed at looking after Phil's businesses which doesn't help. Kathy missed out on most of his formulative years and wasn't there when he needed her, something which he sees as unforgivable, especially as her sending him back to England allowed Stella to get her claws into him. Then there's the attack on Jordan and the killing of Ev and two stretches inside. He's volatile and distrusting, whilst desperate for acceptance. None of which is unreasonable given everything he's been through (plus it gives the writers plenty of scope ).
And this before his beloved Paul was brutally murdered. If he wasn't angry, there would be something wrong.
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Old 07-10-2016, 15:11
The Queen Vic
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It seems to me that Kathy still has quite a lot of making up to do... I know Gavin was "evil" or whatever and she was seemingly forced to do it all but she did fake her own death and leave her sons and she wasn't there for them during their most difficult periods.

Sean O'Connor seems to be doing a good job of stuff like this so I hope it's explored more.
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Old 07-10-2016, 16:44
LHolmes
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Kathy being around wouldn't necessarily have prevented Stella, Phil's girlfriend, abusing Ben. All the abuser needs is access and timid Stella is the last person you'd have suspected of abusing a child.

Kathy didn't actually leave the Square in '98 because of Phil's abusive behaviour. In fact she contemplated staying for him. She had a dilemma over Phil, Grant and Alex but was more so leaning towards Phil who was at this point sober.

Phil's alcoholism and abusive behaviour peaked late 96/early 97 sort of time. That's when she left him. She went back to him after he promised to get sober and started attending AA meetings. The same AA meetings where he met Lorna. I can't recall if there was another split before Paris but she dumped him in Paris after she found out about his affair with Lorna. He then started drinking again but by the time Kathy left London in spring 98, Phil had sobered up. IIRC the move to SA was more about Kathy wanting to make a fresh start in general in light of the breakdown of the marriage than a need to escape Phil's controlling behaviour. Phil wasn't coming on strongly re: Ben.

As well as Kathy contemplating staying for him in 98 (and you have to remember Phil wasn't a monster in those days, his issues were drink-related) Peggy also set them up on a date in 1999. Kathy then asked Phil to move to SA with her in 2000. He refused but wanted her to stay in London with him. So they didn't part on bad terms. Phil should really have made an effort to see Ben after that.
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Old 07-10-2016, 18:04
kitkat1971
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They did part on bad terms in 99 - she threw having slept with Grant in his face.

My recollections is that there were a lot of contributing factors to her deciding to move to SA and getting away from Phil was one of them but it is, early 20 years ago so maybe I misremember some details.

I also recall that he was pretty vile to her in Paris after she learnt the truth about Lorna and he started drinking again.

Regardless of what triggered his abusive behaviour (and I do have sympathy with alcoholics), Kathy knew what alcohol did to him and there was always the chance he would relapse. She left her child in that situation, with their only parent being a man with a proven history of violence when drunk and a constant battle to keep from drinking.

Of course Stella (or any girlfriend of Phils) could still have abused Ben. Likewise Gavin or any boyfriend of Kathy's. That's why I said he could well have grown up with the same issues or different ones caused by his different circumstances. He might always have had a violent streak and bad temper. It's impossible to say, we can only talk about what did happen and know that it wouldn't have happened in that exact way if Kathy hadn't of 'died'.

It can't be argued that Ben was extra vulnerable and part of the reason Phil thought Stella was a good bet, was because (ironically) he thought she'd be a good 'Mother' to replace Kathy. Had Kathy not needed replacing, Phil might not have goone for somebody like her and forced them together so much. He might have just gone for somebody he actually liked who wasn't that involved with Ben if he only had partial custody. Also, Ben was so unsettled he probably felt he couldn't trust anybody to tell. He might have told his Mum that his Dad's new girlfriend was being mean if he was continuing to live with his Mum who he'd had a consistent relationship with since birth. I know Ian was around but Ben had never lived with Ian and your much older brother just isn't the same as your Mum re talking to about veing bullied or upset.

But Stella is actually only part of the problem here - the rest of it was much more the "man up, behave like a Mitchell" crap that Ben was fed from day 1 and Kathy could and would have fought against that if she'd been around. She did with Pete over Ian who also had those attitudes but nowhere near as bad as Phil.
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Old 07-10-2016, 18:17
Aaron_Silver
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Generally I'd agree that it is an appalling way to speak to a parent and I certainly would never have spoken to my Mother like it, and if I had I would have had a similar reaction to the one described by the OP from my father if he heard me - even when I was middle aged.

But, I can't bring myself to feel badly about Kathy as she acted in a way so unmotherly (so inhumane actually) by allowing Ben and Ian (especially Ben who was a vulnerable child) to believe she was dead, she has lost all rights to be treated with the love, respect and concern a Mother should be.

As I said time and time again when theories of how Kathy could come back would be floated pre 30th Anniversary, any 'believable' wau they could bring her back like faking her death, would be so out of character that she wouldn't be Kathy any more so there was no point.

That has been borne out. Old Kathy would never have stood for being spoken to the way Ben does but they can't really have her object as if she does, he could quite rightly retort with "who are you to lecture me, you let me think you were dead for 10 years". If he didn't say it, I would be to the screen at home.

Same anytime she tries to be a moral voice or dish out some tough love.

I did find her reaction to Pam talking about how all killers usually have a reason in their background for having behaved the way they did. She immediately leaped to being accused of having been responsible for Heather's death and didn't like it one bit but there is a modicom of truth in it.

Of course Ben might always have turned out "his father's son" and with this need to gain his approval and act against him in equal measures. He might have been mixed up a different way if brought up by Gavin (probably would have). But, there can be no doubt that the circumstances which led to Ben hitting Heather were caused by his toxic relationship with Phil, his need to get away as he was scared what Phil would do to him when released from Prison after Ben had stalked him and set him up. And he did that as revenge for Phil's attitude to him being sensitive, not a real Mitchell and finally gay.

All of which would probably have been better if Kathy had been around to temper it, or even had kept him away from Phil all together as she originally set out to do when she moved to SA.
They did part on bad terms in 99 - she threw having slept with Grant in his face.

My recollections is that there were a lot of contributing factors to her deciding to move to SA and getting away from Phil was one of them but it is, early 20 years ago so maybe I misremember some details.

I also recall that he was pretty vile to her in Paris after she learnt the truth about Lorna and he started drinking again.

Regardless of what triggered his abusive behaviour (and I do have sympathy with alcoholics), Kathy knew what alcohol did to him and there was always the chance he would relapse. She left her child in that situation, with their only parent being a man with a proven history of violence when drunk and a constant battle to keep from drinking.

Of course Stella (or any girlfriend of Phils could still have abused Ben. Likewise Gavin or any boyfriend of Kathy's. That's why I said he could well have grown up with the same issues or different ones caused by his different circumstances. He might always have had a violent streak and bad temper. It's impossible to say, we can only talk about what did happen and know that it wouldn't have happened in that exact way if Kathy hadn't of 'died'.

It can't be argued that Ben was extra vulnerable and part of the reason Phil thought Stella was a good bet, was because (ironically) he thought she'd be a good 'Mother' to replace Kathy. Had Kathy not needed replacing, Phil might not have gone for somebody like her and forced them together so much. He might have just gone for somebody he actually liked who wasn't that involved with Ben if he only had partial custody. Also, Ben was so unsettled he probably felt he couldn't trust anybody to tell. He might have told his Mum that his Dad's new girlfriend was being mean if he was continuing to live with his Mum who he'd had a consistent relationship with since birth. I know Ian was around but Ben had never lived with Ian and your much older brother just isn't the same as your Mum re talking to about being bullied or upset.

But Stella is actually only part of the problem here - the rest of it was much more the "man up, behave like a Mitchell" crap that Ben was fed from day 1 and Kathy could and would have fought against that if she'd been around. She did with Pete over Ian who also had those attitudes but nowhere near as bad as Phil.
I don't need to answer this thread because you have done it beautifully as always kitkat and I don't think there is a word I would disagree with in it at all.

You really are a fabulous poster
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Old 07-10-2016, 18:20
All Of Me
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He went back to over acting mode last night.
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Old 07-10-2016, 19:35
LHolmes
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They did part on bad terms in 99 - she threw having slept with Grant in his face.
Ah was that in between her 1999 stints? That was still after they'd parted on reasonable terms in 1998, and they did part again on reasonable terms after that in 2000.


One thing that's been established since Kathy's return is that Phil knew she wasn't dead for years and said nothing. While Kathy has maybe gotten off pretty lightly with her sons, I think the same is true of Phil. Maybe he doesn't deserve the same level of scorn as he didn't know all along and he wasn't the one who did it but still it's a massive betrayal. Phil could've helped reunite Kathy with her boys much sooner. Do you also think Phil's free pass is unrealistic kitkat?
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Old 07-10-2016, 19:50
soap-lea
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Ah was that in between her 1999 stints? That was still after they'd parted on reasonable terms in 1998, and they did part again on reasonable terms after that in 2000.


One thing that's been established since Kathy's return is that Phil knew she wasn't dead for years and said nothing. While Kathy has maybe gotten off pretty lightly with her sons, I think the same is true of Phil. Maybe he doesn't deserve the same level of scorn as he didn't know all along and he wasn't the one who did it but still it's a massive betrayal. Phil could've helped reunite Kathy with her boys much sooner. Do you also think Phil's free pass is unrealistic kitkat?
All viewers know that is ret-conned nonsense about Phil knowing since Ben's trial so is irrelevant. Phil would never have been able to keep that quiet from Ian he would have gloated at the first opportunity
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Old 07-10-2016, 20:43
kitkat1971
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Ah was that in between her 1999 stints? That was still after they'd parted on reasonable terms in 1998, and they did part again on reasonable terms after that in 2000.


One thing that's been established since Kathy's return is that Phil knew she wasn't dead for years and said nothing. While Kathy has maybe gotten off pretty lightly with her sons, I think the same is true of Phil. Maybe he doesn't deserve the same level of scorn as he didn't know all along and he wasn't the one who did it but still it's a massive betrayal. Phil could've helped reunite Kathy with her boys much sooner. Do you also think Phil's free pass is unrealistic kitkat?
Phil should be hung, drawn and quartered for multiple reasons, including failing as a father, and stepfather.

However i do,'t think that particular betrayal is anywhere near as bad as Kathy, no. They established that Kathy contacted him when she read about Ben killing Heather, so about two and a half years before she turned back up. The majority of the damage to Ben had been done by then! He was refusing to see Phil, Kathy didn't apparently want to come back at that stage so exactly what good would it have done to tell Ben at that point? He wasn't actually going to get to see her as Kathy wouldn't have been able to get a visiting order even if she'd been willing to visit. Ben couldn't go looking for her. If anything, it would probably have messed him up even more and made being locked up harder.

If Ben couldn't be told whilst in Prison, Ian couldn't either really.

Ian has brought it up, re Phil knowing when he was comforting Ian over Lucy dying so it hasn't been completely forgotten about re him being blamed/judged for it.

I feel about it in a similar way to ian colluding in the Bobby cover up. It was wrong, he should have faced consequences for it, but he (and Pohil with Kathy's death fraud) were accomplices long after the fact. It was already such a mess by the time they were told, almost everything they did would make it worse. Jane and Kathy have to bear ultimate responsibility for making the initial decision, continuing it for months (years in Kathy's case) until their (ex) husbands got drawn into it as well.

It was in her later Summer/early Autumn 99 return - it is what triggered the argument between Phil and Grant where they crashed into the Thames.

I thought that Kathy also wrote to Phil saying she didn't want him to have much, if any contact with Ben in about 2001 - it was one of the things that caused problems with Lisa.

My point is still that she did witness enough bad behaviour from him, when fuelled by alcohol or not, to know that he might well not cope with Ben. Especially as she stated that she already knew he was gay before she 'died'. How did he think somebody like Phil was going to react to that?
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Old 07-10-2016, 20:49
kitkat1971
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All viewers know that is ret-conned nonsense about Phil knowing since Ben's trial so is irrelevant. Phil would never have been able to keep that quiet from Ian he would have gloated at the first opportunity
Well the whole ruddy thing is a retcon but I do agree.

The way Pohil behaved in the live episode, it seemed like he had only just found out and his first instinct was to tell Ian.

But then they hadn't worked out the details of her return at that stage had they, so it doesn't necessarily add up with what we were told later.

Same thing about him having been giving her money constantly for the prior couple of years. Odd nobody noticed that when they took over his finances whilst he was in Prison.

That's another thing, you could argue Phil's punishment was subsidizing her and Gavin to the tune of God knows how much money - plus Gavin kidnapping him and getting him hooked back on booze.
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