I think it's a silly claim really.

Look at reality shows in general, it's not just Strictly. There are usually less black people than white people on shows, so that puts the odds in a "white" persons favour. Now if every series of every reality show had, I don't know, 14 black contestants and 2 white contestants, and the white contestants always won, then, yes I'd agree with it being racist. But you can't pull out a card everytime someone goes home. Are we all xenophobic to Spanish, Italian, French, Albanian, Turkish people too considering they don't win many UK reality shows?

Considering there are less black people in reality shows, i disagree. Black/mixed race people have won. And if they haven't, they have gone far.

Lets just do X Factor (talent)

X Factor:
2005- Andy 2nd, Brenda 4th
2008- Alexandra 1st, JLS 2nd, Rachel 6th
2011- Marcus 2nd, Mischa 4th
2012- Jahmene 2nd
2013- Hannah 6th, Tamera 5th, Rough Copy 4th
2014- Fleur 2nd
2015- Anton 6th, Reggie n Bollie 2nd

I would go into Big Brother too, but there are so many to mention. A huge amount of black people have made the final.

Thanks for explaining what you did for the combined probability.

But there's an implicit assumption in the question and your answer that race and dancing ability are the only factors. Mrs Moose's post even said suppose it was Diane Abbott instead of Ed Balls but with the same dance ability, as if there aren't any other significant differences between those too.

That sort of assumption plagues these discussions.

But there sometimes seems to be an assumption that the way mixed-race contestants self-identify isn't how the public perceives them, not because of any actual evidence about what the public thinks (since pretty much no one ever provides any), but because otherwise their success in Strictly would count against the view that public is biased against black contestants.


Unconscious biases do indeed seem to exist. (See, for example, this article about the Implicit Association Test.)

But when you discuss the suggestion "that some people vote according to the influence those biases are exercising over them", that makes it sound like the bias determines their vote. In the great majority of cases, such a bias will instead just be one factor among others, and not even the most important.


I agree that the proportion of contestants would be more directly useful, but we'd expect the same proportion in the winners only in the long term and if winners were picked at random.

In my experience it tends to be people who ask these sorts of questions that have more of an issue with race.

Right now I'm all 'raced out' meaning I have nothing to say on the subject.

But some people do.

Calling the OP a troll is incendiary in as much as if I raised a subject that is legitimate for discussion and I was dismissed as a troll I'd be furious.

Your comment is more along the lines of 'I wish racism didn't exist, therefore I'd like the conversation closed down and the issue not discussed'.

Part of the problem is that almost every year someone will start a thread like this- each person thinking they are the first person ever to have raised the subject.

That's why I have nothing new to say other than 'Don;t try to end a conversation because you wish it was a conversation that wasn't taking place.

Edit- meant to link to the post immediately above Steve Rage as well.

I can't believe this discussion is still going on. It was a non-story in the first place.

I agree! it gets very very boring every year and every reality show out comes the racist card...Imo people didn't vote for Tameka because they found her exremely irritating.

The 'pack' has changed the word troll to mean any viewpoint they don't agree with. Tiresome on a discussion website.

I think there is an interesting underlying question to be asked about why at least one person feels the need to raise this point every year? Are they all mischievous trolls fishing for a catch? Is it an easy way to get a rise out of posters? (Entirely plausible, obviously.) Is there a genuine possibility that unconscious racial bias has at least a part to play in people's voting preferences? Do the stats bear out the perception of a pattern? Are we guilty of downplaying a genuine phenomenon because we're uncomfortable with the concept of racism being discussed?

Just because someone asks the question doesn't mean they're saying "all you DS posters who vote are racist" or even "everyone who watches Strictly is racist".

Fair point, the percentage of black/non-white/foreign contestants are relatively small on all tv shows such as these.

Is this forum not being moderated any more? The OP hasn't done anything amiss, and so name calling is really not acceptable. I've alerted the post (#331), but name calling seems to be tolerated on DS nowadays.

There was a valid reason for raising the question again given the first 2 eliminations. Besides, don't people raise all sorts of questions over and over again, sometimes multiple times in a week? Once a year is actually quite restrained by DS standards.

I'm actually coming to the conclusion, from looking at the stats, that there isn't a strong case for concluding that there is any racism, but there is no reason as to why this can't be discussed objectively.

I think people get upset because they do feel personally accused. This is called narcissistic injury - instead of considering the possible damage done to other people (black contestants), those who feel accused focus on damage done to themselves in terms of their self image.

Nobody suggesting race bias might influence voting patterns has suggested deliberate outright racism on the part of individuals, but the responses are defending the accusation as if it had been made. The theory is this: unconscious bias may be at play; that if this unconscious bias exists, it is stronger towards black than mixed race contestants; that negative stereotypes may make people interpret the same personality traits in different ways depending on race.

Therefore, it's a straw man argument to say "I assure you race is not in MY mind when I vote so racist voting on Strictly doesn't exist" - because the whole POINT of unconscious bias is that it is NOT in one's mind when one votes.

Therefore, it's a straw man argument to cite the success of mixed race contestants, because the suggestion is that the bias is strongest against black contestants.

Therefore, it's a straw man argument to point out that X black contestant lasted X weeks in the competition, when they were in the bottom two for Y out of those X weeks. And, if they had scored highly, may even have been protected from the bottom two by the judges marks, not the voters.

As I said earlier in the thread, study after study shows that applicants for jobs with IDENTICAL CVs are less likely to make an interview shortlist if they are submitted by people with black or brown-sounding names than by people with white-sounding names. The recruiters aren't doing it deliberately. It's their unconscious bias that the white-sounding person is a better candidate to ACTIVELY PREFER to go forward in the recruitment process.

Why is it so hard to accept the possibility that, for the Strictly audience, there's a similar unconscious bias to ACTIVELY PREFER a white contestant to forward in the competition (by voting for them)? It doesn't mean you're being accused of being an inch away from joining the KKK: it simply means you might be as susceptible to unconscious bias as everyone else is.

Thank you Gorlagon.

Two said Laura was better.

The previous week there was no dance off and people complained about whatshisname being eliminated on the popular vote.

Whatever system is used someone will be eliminated and so there will be people claiming it is not fair.

Will you be posting the same about whoever is eliminated on Saturday, and the next Saturday .....

Did not watch the programme but saw a news report by him (I think). It showed the very high number of black people shot in Chicago every day and that the majority were shot by other black people. Far more than the police shoot.

The fault of black playwrights not writing enough plays featuring black characters.

There is an outcry if a white actor is cast to play a black character so presumably the same would apply if she was cast to play a white character?

Is it not racist for the tabloid article quoted to suggest that Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandella can only be played by a black actor?

I am 73 and therefore of an age who could possibly be expected to be racist because it wasn't until 1948 that the 'Windrush' brought West Indian immigrants to the UK and 1972 when the Asian minority were expelled from Uganda by Idi Ami. Until then the UK had been a largely white population, and both sets of immigrants had customs that we weren't used to. I know several people of my generation who are most definitely racist - I am not and have friends and relatives by marriage from various backgrounds and I don't notice the colour of their skin..

Since then we have had a very diverse population with diverse customs and lifestyles, with people of all skin colours born here and I would have thought racism would be less likely in those born from the late 70s onwards because of that.

I have voted on Strictly. At the moment there are too many contestants for me to take in who is a good dancer and who has potential. So for the first few weeks I vote for who I find entertaining, who has made me laugh and who doesn't annoy me because in the first few weeks the poorer dancers will be eliminated and it doesn't matter in which order they go.

So far it's been Ed Balls and Judge Rinder because they both make me laugh, and I would not have voted for Tameka because her personality grated - too loud and attention seeking. Definitely not to do with her colour. I wouldn't vote for Anastacia at this stage either because |I find her a bit simpery (if there is such a word). We are not voting to eliminate, but who we want to stay in and I will start to vote for those I think dance best from about week 6 or 7 - there are sufficient doing that already to keep them in.

People vote for who they do a variety of reasons, and I like to think that the colour of their skin isn't a reason not to.

Just who is this pack ?

Everyone who doesn't agree with another point of Veiw than the OP of a specific thread, or are you meaning that there is a pack haunting DS shouting troll, troll?

Or are you meaning everyone who doesn't agree with everything everyone says? I wouldn't have thought that desirable on a discussion board.

I see no pack.

I have people who I generally agree with their views but at other times I disagree a lot. As does everyone I suspect.

I have people who I cannot imagine ever agreeing with them , their world and SCD is a world I do not recognise at all and would hate to inhabit.

What "pack" ?

Surely there are some parts that could be played by either black or white actors? Say you were casting a play about a marriage breakdown or a murder investigation.

However the whole point of portraying MLK and NM's life stories is to show their struggle against oppression. Given the events that occured, it is difficult to imagine a white person playing those parts as their life stories would, by definition, be different.

Oh there has been, all the Ho ha over casting a black actor as Guinevere in " Arthur " and again as a queen in the Hollow Crown trilogy.

And this year all the Ho ha over casting white actors exclusively in Exodus Gods and Kings.

Funnily enough I care more about the last as I think there are few enough good roles for BME actors without having the few taken by exclusively white actors.

Another point about the public voting, if viewers are racists how come neither Ore nor Naga weren't in the dance off or are they collectively cunning enough to have one of them in next week's and the other in the following week's dance off? Or even Oti and Danny.

Although come to think of it, Naga isn't very good so perhaps she will be in next week's pair. Doesn't bear thinking about what the media will make of that if it happens.

There was an episode of Eastenders about 5-6 years ago that got complaints from some members of the public as the episode only featured black members of the cast.

Yes really....

You couldn't make it up really could you.