Is Strictly voting a little bit racist?

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katmobile

18-10-2016

Originally Posted by ladygardener:
“In which case why do half white people always claim to be black and not white. Halle Berry is a prime example. Black father left home not to be seen again, brought up solely by white mother, yet Halle Berry is apparently "Black".

Anyway I can't be bothered with these racists posts. People get in the dance off because they weren't voted for by the general public and the reason they're not voted for is usually because their professional dancer isn't well known or isn't popular. Naga still in the contest not because she's good, but because she's partnered by the very popular Pasha. Happens every year.”

I'm not convinced at outside of the hardcore SCD fans that many of the general public know or even care much about the pros. Most people have heard of Anton and maybe Kristina through the red tops but beyond that - not convniced at all.

katmobile

18-10-2016

Originally Posted by RichardSteward7:
“1. I didn't realise white people have a problem with racism I must have missed that one.
2. I never at any point said the contestants that were voted out were my favourites.
3. The fact people vote for their favourites does not disprove that there could be an element of racism to the voting particularly if people avoid voting for black contestants either consciously or subconsciously (impossible to prove either way).
4. Please read my post, I have already said the judging IMO is not racist.”

I agree

Not a provable point either way.

katmobile

18-10-2016

Originally Posted by Monkseal:
“Anton's gone out first, Matthew Cutler went out first, Karen Hardy went out first, Flavia went out first, Vincent went out first twice, Aliona went out first twice and won twice, Ian Waite's gone out first, even Strictly's all time "can do no wrong" sweetheart Lilia went out first in her time. Pasha's liked, but he's not more popular than any of them. I'm not getting into the racism stuff because I've gone in to it too many times now but if a celebrity is deadweight, no pro can save them.”

Very true and for those who don't know - this dude's an expert on SCD

katmobile

18-10-2016

Originally Posted by gorlagon:
“I think it's hard to argue that unconscious bias doesn't play a part in the way people vote on Strictly. And race is obviously going to be involved in that as one of those unconscious biases. It's nothing new. I very much doubt there is any significant conscious racist voting in Strictly - even any at all - but it's just silly to insist that race plays no part at all in voting patterns.

The bookies certainly know this. You only have to look at the odds they lay out before reality series even begin.

I know it's hard to admit to yourself that your likes and dislikes may, in ways you're not consciously aware of, have something to do with race (or other biases), especially when you don't consider yourself in any way a prejudiced person, but y'know. Sometimes, it just does. Despite your best intentions. That's why it's better to air the point than to get annoyed and shut it down because you feel personally injured by the accusation.

(I actually voted for Tameka this week and this was one of the reasons.)”

I wish there was a thumbs up option - so just take it I'm giving you a thumbs up

katmobile

18-10-2016

Originally Posted by lundavra:
“Someone earlier or in another thread was complaining that there were not enough black contestants, implying discrimination or racism or some other -ism. I was pointing out that proportionally there was a higher number of black people than there would be expected by the proportion of the UK population. With a proportion of around 3% you would expect 0.4 so about one on average. Proportionally there would be about three times more Asian than black.”

I agree with you but it's worth pointing out at SCD doesn't represented the general population but the entertainment, media and sports worlds were you tend to get proportionally more black people and for that matter more gay people.

katmobile

18-10-2016

Originally Posted by pasodabble:
“Excellent post.

One can't help wondering why some people get so defensive about this matter.”

I think people tend not to want to work in shades here. The idea of that if you admit some voters might be a tad racist or prejuiced even subconciously then that's saying SCD is a racist show and perhaps even worse the red tops are right (and they're NOT because as they don't deal in shades or stubtlity either).

I think there is a tendancy to the vote for the young, the attractive especially men, the people who we think we might want to share a beer with and those who seem like us (which for some might be racial or perhaps cultural - I do wonder if the Afro-Carribean culture is naturally louder than the mainstream and that effects perception of some people - please anyone who knows better feel free to correct me and forgive I speak from ignorance not hatred).

katmobile

18-10-2016

Originally Posted by Sarah777:
“Good morning, What name?? What colour?? What???.

I do agree with you. Firstly let me say, I have voted for Mark R, Natalie G ( still haven't got over her Not winning), Colin J, Alesha D and Ricky W. I wanted all these to win and only two won. Please forgive me if it's not PC, I have noticed that only good looking people seem to win Strictly, shows how shallow we are in this country. Most of all, If you are Black ( can I say it ??) and average looking, no hope in hell of anyone surviving in Strictly. This coming from an average looking white person.

For me, Tameka reminded me of Lisa, public loved loud Lisa and not Tameka, may be some truth in your theory. The moment you bring up the race card, some people become defensive. I am happy to discuss and I have proven in the past that colour doesn't matter to me.”

I have a tendency to like people who by the law things shouldn't be good at dancing but are or at least better than the should be. I think it makes for a more interesting narrative then a lot of good looking young things so tend to gravitate a bit towards people who are older and just different in some cases (I loved Mark Bention - and I loved that a larger contestants wasn't a complete joke and had some lovely ballroom technique although I did also enjoy some the ridicolous latin numbers like the MC Hammer one).

I have noticed that middle aged black men - like Patrick and Colin Salmon tend to get voted off earlier than younger counterparts. I wonder if there is something to do with race or if it's age or some combination of both.

Monkseal

18-10-2016

Originally Posted by katmobile:
“I agree with you but it's worth pointing out at SCD doesn't represented the general population but the entertainment, media and sports worlds were you tend to get proportionally more black people and for that matter more gay people.”

Depends what you mean. By my count there have been 7 openly gay contestants out of 192 (Jason Wood, Julian Clary, Russell Grant, Julien MacDonald, Scott Mills, Judge Rinder, and Will Young). That's about 3.6% which isn't out of the range of expected results for % of people identifying as gay or bisexual out of the population as a whole, especially as it's hard to get proper large-scale demographic results as many people are still reluctant to out themselve as gay to official organisations, especially if they're older (for understandable historic reasons). What IS disprportionate of course is that they've all been men.

(I can think of three other contestants (particularly one) who I would say are in a glass closet, but if they're not out, they're not out, you can't just assume)

CravenHaven

18-10-2016

This thread still going? I think it all started with Marvin O'Diddled, didn't it? No, scratch that. It started when they whitewashed Jesus.
o_0

katmobile

18-10-2016

Originally Posted by Vientre:
“All this lefty ist and ism gets on my wick. How about crime dramas when the perp is always white? We get the odd red herring thrown in when we get a black suspect but lo and behold he/she has been framed and the guilty party is always white. Similar to that spate of adverts showing bag snatching/pickpockets and other personal awareness ads, the criminal is always portrayed by white actors actresses, no lefty outcrying about typecasting there I note, but the professional offendees who take offence on other peoples behalf are the same hypocrites that support reverse racism.”

There was something on years ago called 'Dead Air' where the murder was black and the producer got in the neck. He said it was misdirection because the murderer was a nice guy who was set up was one.

katmobile

18-10-2016

Originally Posted by spikewoman:
“Well for a start off, just my preference, Rob Rinder is a better dancer than Tameka. I was kind of surprised when I saw how gymnastic and fit he is. I expect if he'd got dumped out there would have been screams of homophobia and anti Semitism.

Re personality I appreciate they're both a bit marmite at times although I rather like both so it doesn't bother me personally. If it were a straight choice for me (pardon the irony) I'd vote for Rob Rinder because his dancing entertained me more.”

Didn't know he was Jewish

katmobile

18-10-2016

Originally Posted by Big Boy Barry:
“Oh no.

It's finally happened.

Social Justice Warriors have discovered Strictly.”

Oh crap - that term's appeared on a SCD forum!!

katmobile

19-10-2016

Originally Posted by Veri:
“That doesn't happen, though, does it?

I don't think I've ever seen the sort of response when a gay or Jewish celeb is eliminated that we sometimes do when it happens to a black contestant.”

You could have a Jewish or gay contestant and you wouldn't know unless they declared themselves to be one although being camp is a bit of a clue some straight men are a bit camp and some gay men are not although this being the entertainment industry here you do get more camp gay men.

Veri

19-10-2016

Originally Posted by inothernews:
“My point is that in the early weeks, a small number of people (say it was 2,000) can influence things more (because there are 15 people to vote for in the first week) The further you get in to the contest, the less influence 2,000 people could have (because 2,000 votes isn't going to make any odds if you are down to 5 or 6 contestants sharing a million votes between them (i've no idea how many people vote each week, but you get the picture) So, the further you get in to the process, the less danger it could have an influence.”

There are at least two problems with that. One is that 2,000 is just a number pulled out of the air. The other is that, if we assume the 2,000 won't vote for any black contestant (or any BAME contestant), the more contestants left, the more their vote is "split" and so "diluted". I think you have a good point about what happens when the number of contestants is smaller, but larger numbers of contestants limit the effect in a different way.

The problem with all these discussions is that nothing takes us much beyond this: There is racism in the UK, and race can also have subtle effects, so there most likely is some effect on SCD votes. But no one knows how large the effect is. It's reasonable to think it could make the difference in very close votes, but we don't even know how close the votes have been.

Originally Posted by Monaogg:
“The free on-line votes have made a small difference to who is saved of the duffers.

However, I can see no reason on earth why anyone would bother to target their racism at Strictly. Nor have I seen any evidence of this anywhere.”

I think that is a significant point. We have sometimes seen a suspicious influx of new posters in Big Brother that were hostile to a black contestant (most clearly re Science in bb6); but I don't think there's been anything like that for Strictly.

Originally Posted by bornfree:
“So vote to save is to ignore the 'Other'. Convenient. IMO Naga was not weaker than Anastacia and if Tameka hadn't been in the bottom two few weeks ago, against Anastacia she would have been the stronger dancer. Just saying.”

Naga vs Anastasia was decided by the judges, though.

katmobile

19-10-2016

Originally Posted by Sarah777:
“May be, I plead innocent here, She was my favourite and I voted for her. I am still in denial about Abbey winning.”

It's funny because I was biased against Abbey - something about her just got on my tits and IMO Natalie did a better showdance.

I don't think race influences my choices and the time I backed the winner from the start he was of mixed race. However do think that we are influenced by a a lot of different factors determining what makes us pick up a phone and who we phone in the vote for and I do wonder if race is one of those factors. .

katmobile

19-10-2016

Originally Posted by Monaogg:
“I was rooting for her that year.”

So was I - one of the few who combined good dancing and personality. I was pretty gutted when that happened to her - and to find it affected her afterwards too. Very sad.

katmobile

19-10-2016

Originally Posted by Monkseal:
“Depends what you mean. By my count there have been 7 openly gay contestants out of 192 (Jason Wood, Julian Clary, Russell Grant, Julien MacDonald, Scott Mills, Judge Rinder, and Will Young). That's about 3.6% which isn't out of the range of expected results for % of people identifying as gay or bisexual out of the population as a whole, especially as it's hard to get proper large-scale demographic results as many people are still reluctant to out themselve as gay to official organisations, especially if they're older (for understandable historic reasons). What IS disprportionate of course is that they've all been men.

(I can think of three other contestants (particularly one) who I would say are in a glass closet, but if they're not out, they're not out, you can't just assume)”

Fair enough - I stand corrected and didn't know about Scott Mills either.

bornfree

19-10-2016

Originally Posted by Veri:
“There are at least two problems with that. One is that 2,000 is just a number pulled out of the air. The other is that, if we assume the 2,000 won't vote for any black contestant (or any BAME contestant), the more contestants left, the more their vote is "split" and so "diluted". I think you have a good point about what happens when the number of contestants is smaller, but larger numbers of contestants limit the effect in a different way.

The problem with all these discussions is that nothing takes us much beyond this: There is racism in the UK, and race can also have subtle effects, so there most likely is some effect on SCD votes. But no one knows how large the effect is. It's reasonable to think it could make the difference in very close votes, but we don't even know how close the votes have been.

I think that is a significant point. We have sometimes seen a suspicious influx of new posters in Big Brother that were hostile to a black contestant (most clearly re Science in bb6); but I don't think there's been anything like that for Strictly.

Naga vs Anastasia was decided by the judges, though.”

Aren't the bottom two decided by the voting public ?.Why was she there in the first place? Didn't Len say it was her best dance?

dippydancing

19-10-2016

Originally Posted by bornfree:
“Aren't the bottom two decided by the voting public ?.Why was she there in the first place? Didn't Len say it was her best dance?”

The public have exactly half the say on who gets to be in the B2- the other half is the judges. The judges put her 2nd from bottom on the leader board. Len did indeed say it was her best dance and gave her a 7, which was the best score he'd ever given her. But he gave all the other dancers -bar Ed- the same or more.
Just because it was her best, doesn't make it better than anyone else's. And he, and all the other judges, marked accordingly- giving only Ed lower marks than her.

Ore & Joanne 39 (9,10,10,10)
Danny & Oti 36 (9,9,9,9)
Laura & Giovanni 33 (8,8,8,9)
Louise & Kevin 33 (8,8,8,9)
Daisy & Aljaž 31 (7,8,8,8)
Lesley & Anton 31 (7,8,8,8)
Claudia & AJ 30 (6,8,8,8)
Greg & Natalie 28 (7,7,7,7)
Anastacia & Brendan 27 (6,7,7,7)
Rinder & Oksana 27 (6,7,7,7)
Naga & Pasha 24 (5,6,7,6)
Ed & Katya 16 (2,5,5,4)

gorlagon

19-10-2016

Originally Posted by Veri:
“There is racism in the UK, and race can also have subtle effects, so there most likely is some effect on SCD votes. But no one knows how large the effect is. It's reasonable to think it could make the difference in very close votes, but we don't even know how close the votes have been.”

This is basically where I am at. I also don't think analysing the votes will get us anywhere.

I think there are many factors involved when Strictly voters choose a favourite: dance ability, the actual routine, the contestant's personality, previous affiliation with a celebrity or what they are known for, etc ad infinitum. These are the conscious factors.

Then there are the unconscious factors - gender (certain traits are less likely to be perceived negatively in men than in women), race (similarly traits are more likely to be perceived negatively in POC than in white people), etc again ad infinitum.

We'll never know how much of an effect any of these factors have because it's impossible to isolate a single one. But it just seems disingenuous to me to argue race has no effect at all - and I think this just happens because it's uncomfortable for people to interrogate themselves like this so they go into outright denial instead.

It might be tiny - changing a bookie's elimination odds from 100-1 to 99-1. Or it might be significant - changing a bookie's odds from 100-1 to 10-1. We just don't know.

Janet43

19-10-2016

For the first half of the series, it's an entertainment programme. If it was a serious dance contest there wouldn't be the stupid themes and only those who were likely to have an ability to dance to a reasonable standard would be in it. So the likes of Anne Widdicombe, John Sergeant, Ed Balls, Russell Grant, Tim ~Wonnacott, Scott Mills wouldn't be taking part and we'd be watching something like the old 'Come Dancing' which wouldn't attract anything like the audience Strictly does.

At the moment I'm voting for who I find entertaining and not necessarily the best dancers because they will be at the top of the leaderboard and viewer votes won't have much influence like it does for the middle and lower scorers. So currently I'm using my three votes for Ed Balls, Judge Rinder because I find them funny, and Leslie Joseph because she's fantastic for someone of 71, which is my right to do. What some of you are saying is that I shouldn't vote for one of them, but use one of my votes for one of the non-white celebs to prove I'm not racist. Utter tosh!

Once the lesser able have all been eliminated in the second half of the series and it does become a dance contest, then I'll start to vote for who I think are the better dancers regardless of the colour of their skin, race, religion, gender or any other factor.

Viewers vote for who they want to keep in for a variety of reasons, including who is the best dancer, which celeb they like, which professional they like ................

magstango

19-10-2016

Originally Posted by Janet43:
“For the first half of the series, it's an entertainment programme. If it was a serious dance contest there wouldn't be the stupid themes and only those who were likely to have an ability to dance to a reasonable standard would be in it. So the likes of Anne Widdicombe, John Sergeant, Ed Balls, Russell Grant, Tim ~Wonnacott, Scott Mills wouldn't be taking part and we'd be watching something like the old 'Come Dancing' which wouldn't attract anything like the audience Strictly does.

At the moment I'm voting for who I find entertaining and not necessarily the best dancers because they will be at the top of the leaderboard and viewer votes won't have much influence like it does for the middle and lower scorers. So currently I'm using my three votes for Ed Balls, Judge Rinder because I find them funny, and Leslie Joseph because she's fantastic for someone of 71, which is my right to do. What some of you are saying is that I shouldn't vote for one of them, but use one of my votes for one of the non-white celebs to prove I'm not racist. Utter tosh!

Once the lesser able have all been eliminated in the second half of the series and it does become a dance contest, then I'll start to vote for who I think are the better dancers regardless of the colour of their skin, race, religion, gender or any other factor.

Viewers vote for who they want to keep in for a variety of reasons, including who is the best dancer, which celeb they like, which professional they like ................”

Couldn't have put it better myself. Spot on imo

peterstone

19-10-2016

Originally Posted by Janet43:
“What some of you are saying is that I shouldn't vote for one of them, but use one of my votes for one of the non-white celebs to prove I'm not racist. Utter tosh!

..”

Nobody has said that at all.

That is utter tosh.

gorlagon

19-10-2016

Originally Posted by Janet43:
“What some of you are saying is that I shouldn't vote for one of them, but use one of my votes for one of the non-white celebs to prove I'm not racist. .”

You're projecting. Absolutely NOBODY on this thread has said anything like that at all.

Janet43

19-10-2016

Originally Posted by gorlagon:
“You're projecting. Absolutely NOBODY on this thread has said anything like that at all.”

It's been said that the reason those who have been eliminated so far is because viewers are racist. The only way they could have been saved is for people to have change who they voted for and positively vote for them instead of those they did vote to keep. The system is to keep, not to eliminate.

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