I'm not removing them! All I'd be doing is resting them, that's all. There'd probably still be mentions, but we just wouldn't see them. That would make their eventual return much anticipated, awaited even. If they are there without fail every year, it becomes same old, same old.

I'm not denying that their a big part of the success of DW and are much loved, but if in charge I'd love to create things that could even be mentioned in the same bracket as them. I wouldn't be removing the Daleks from the history books, they'd just be on a long holiday as much.

I've got a full six year plan (genuinely I have) of what I'd do with the show. Four full series and two mini-series and no Daleks. That would be my era and then whoever came after me can put them in as much as they want.

I would just like to extend the lore of DW and make new villains etc. The Daleks wouldn't ever be forgotten.

This is all OT, but am another who'd like the Daleks to be used sparingly. As someone who watched Who sporadically from Mid 70's and religiously from the early 80's, it was a big deal when they turned up. Tom met them twice in 7 seasons, Peter D, Colin and Sylvester met them once apiece....I didn't really miss them when they were largely absent from series 6. But yeah, depends upon the story obviously. I enjoyed their Series 9 appearance as it was more of a Davros story; and he hadn't appeared for 7 years.
Last edited by Michael_Eve : 06-11-2016 at 12:59

Exactly, more is less essentially. For instance look at Asylum of the Daleks, the longest break between Dalek stories in new who thus far and the hype for that episode was ridiculous. If you keep using them so often, they don't become special. I see more negative and poor receptions about the Daleks than ever before and it's because of this.

Too quote The Doctor "if you make space and timeyour backyard, what do you get a backyard" Same point but about the Daleks.

Yeah, but your missing the point. A lot of people on here want the Daleks to have an extended break. But a showrunner can't just listen to the fans, he or she has a duty to bring in viewers and listen to common public opinion. Therefore, giving the show's most iconic monsters a break of six years simply wouldn't be acceptable, no matter what else you may or may not have planned.

Furthermore, let's look back over the classic series. The first long Dalek break ended with "The Day of the Daleks", the next long break ended with "Destiny of the Daleks" and the final one with "Resurrection of the Daleks." (Barring "The Five Doctors".)

Would you class any of those as true classics, met with hugely positive acclaim? My point is that yes, hype would build, but so bloomin' high that it would be nigh on impossible to live up to expectations with their return. That's not good for the show.

Honestly, I think you'd be forced to alter your plans in the event you were showrunner. I don't think the BBC would ever go for a totally Dalek-lite era, nor would the children (and adults) who adore watching the Daleks.

And your missing my point too. I wouldn't write the show for the fans, I know and understand that's a bad thing to do. That's how I feel Series 8 & 9 have been written and the show has suffered as a result. It has to be written for joe public.

My ideas are big grand ideas with the general audiences interests at heart. I do think your overstating the value of the Daleks though. Yes, they are the most recognisable enemy around, but viewers don't just tune in for them week in, week out. They'd be very disappointed otherwise. They tune in for entertainment, thrills and spills and that does t ha e to mean the Daleks. It really doesn't.

I just like the idea of resting the Daleks so you get viewers asking 'when are they coming back?' That's when you know they're eager to see them. Making them appear for the sake of it as it stands (in my opinion) makes them weaker and less interesting. A yearly Dalek episode is the problem. It's yearly, what interesting about that?

And, I'd only take on the showrunners role on the proviso of no Daleks. I know that probably rules me out, but change is needed in my opinion. My era would be a new Doctor, new enemies. A fresh start. That to me means resting some of the previous era's history.

Well in terms of canon, it makes a good deal of sense for a powerful, highly dangerous army to appear frequently. It shows that they really are "that dangerous" that the Doctor basically can't avoid them very easily.

Furthermore, as I said, yes it would build anticipation if they had an absence. But the classic era has shown that such anticipation is very hard to live up to when they've been absent for years on end.

I also think that in an era such as Moffat's, where so much changed (some for good, some for not so good) having a familiar "theme" or enemy from the previous era's reminded the viewers that it was still the same show, despite how much had changed.

I didn't like how Ram(?) had a car was able to drive very efficiently so soon. I assume these are Year 12 Student, at the start of the school year? Let's say Ram turned 17 in September and decided to learn to drive immediately. It would still take him at least a month or two to be ready for a test.
It would have been good if the writers had developed it across the series as its a real thing a lot of A-level students face. Maybe have had Ram mentioning getting good with clutch control etc earlier in the series and had him taking a test near the end. It would've made it slightly more realistic.

I think you make a really good point.

It is tricky because I think with the Daleks and some other 'New Who' monsters (the Weeping Angels for instance) we have seen first hand the law of diminishing returns. Its been quantity rather than quality.

But I think you are right about viewer expectations (as opposed to fans). People would probably find a season of Doctor Who a bit empty if there weren't at least one Dalek story.

I guess I would like to see a Dalek story that doesn't try to reinvent them or show some astonishing new angle to them. Just a really tense 'base under siege' story that reminds viewers how frightening and ruthless they are, chasing innocent people down corridors and exterminating pretty much everyone apart from the Doctor and his companion.

Would they though? We know in terms of viewing figures, the general public as a whole don't tune in more just because it's a Dalek episode. They tune in for Doctor Who. So long as the episodes are good enough then they'll tune in.

Personally, I do think the importance of the Daleks to the general audience is being over-egged. I get the general public know them the best etc, but do they tune in specifically for them? I'd hazard a guess and say no...

I do normally agree that overexposure does diminish villains, but then I simply think there are elements of Doctor Who that the kids never tire of watching. One of those elements, I believe, is the Daleks.

I definetley agree with the last point though. I don't think they work very well as deep villains, aside from the leaders. Stories such as "The Stolen Earth / Journey's End" and "Into the Dalek" are among my favourites of the modern era, because they simply feature Daleks being Daleks.

For instance, I loved the series 9 opener, but "Daleks can't die" was a shortsighted new discovery which was done purely to benefit that particular story. No matter that we'd been watching Daleks die for the previous (then 52) years.

A good point, but have you not heard the saying that you never fully appreciate something until it's gone?

People don't just want the Daleks to be there, they EXPECT the Daleks to be there. And if they were gone, albeit for a rest, I firmly believe people would be unhappy.

Quill and Charlie have been at the school for months at the start of the series and while they could have joined in the previous year there's nothing to indicate this.

Would you normally have a Prom in the first week of term? (maybe you do, I don't know)

The latest episode said it was the wrong time of year for blossoms on the trees but the trees are still green so it's unlikely to be October (a month has passed since the series began).

One interesting aspect to Class being set at Coal Hill School is the link to Remembrance of the Daleks. I keep thinking of it's link to An Unearthly Child and then, more recently, to Clara. But the school was riddled with Daleks and Dalek technology in that story - so we could get one pop up in Class and there would be a rationale for it.

If one of the kids unearthed an Imperial Dalek under the foundations

Thought that rotating device the Shadowkin had with the eyestalks looked rather Dalek like

I'd love there to be a picture of Michael Sheard's Headmaster (from Remembrance of the Daleks) on the wall somewhere.

I think most people would be fine if the Daleks didn't pop up quite so much as the stories get more far fetched just to shoehorn them in and they deserve to be at least taken seriously. That's what made Dalek such a superb episode; a single Dalek in an unexpected unique situation and the Doctor totally taken by surprise and freaking out about it, rather than a convoluted plot with him taking on the entire Dalek race yet again. Personally I'd prefer the Trickster or the Celestial Toymaker again, something which would be completely new to the vast majority of recentish viewers and fans.

Did he die (can't recall)? If so his name should be on the Wall of Missing/Dead Pupils and Teachers.


Edit

I see he was only ever credited as Headmaster so I guess a picture would be the only way to commemorate him then.

But then we simply come back round to my point.

Why can't we have the Daleks AND the Trickster / Celestial Toymaker / Other great villain? What a series that would be.

I remember how The Trickster used to give me the creeps, especially how he changed time so easily and took Sarah Jane out of the equation, I still wonder about that little puzzlebox to this day.

I don't think it was said that Daleks can't die, it was said that they're genetically hardwired to keep living. A fine line of difference admittedly, but conceptually it makes sense. They're mutated to live inside a tank, and a tank is designed to withstand as much as you throw at it. Davros in his twisted wisdom would likely 'tank' the hell out of the Daleks genetically - make sure that they will keep on living through intolerable amounts of pain and suffering, if only so it's another Dalek that has survived another day. It's an aspect of The Witch's Familiar that I loved - it really tapped into the horror of what a Dalek really is. The Kaled people are horrifically mutated beyond recognition as it is, and then their emotion is turned on them by having them passionately murder anything they once loved and saw as different. They're essentially conditioned into murderers, brainwashed into a life of extermination. I thought these implications made them a lot more scary in the same way the Cybermen are... because it made you imagine the horror of a Dalek rather than just watching them blow things up snd spout endless mantras about what's good and bad (i.e. Into the Dalek).

As for whether the Daleks should be rested, I think there are plenty of things that could be done with the Daleks but a few too many of the Dalek stories we've seen have been uninspired and it's devalued them - which in turn has made their appearance in better stories somewhat of a diminished return on their part. Seeing the stain-glass Dalek for Big Finish, I thought of how incredibly imaginative that was and how many potential stories that could entail. The show could use a bit more of that.

I don't see it being overly viable to rest the Daleks for particularly long. I remember thinking that by having them appear early on in Series 3 and then late on in Series 4 was a good idea, a big gap. It would have been better still had that Series 3 story been better, or had they opted for a more imaginative one-part story for them at that point. Similarly a gap between the start of Series 9 and later on in Series 10 might not be so bad, depending on if the Series 10 story is any good.

The problem is that the Daleks sell... they sell toys which the BBC loves, they're a recognised icon outside of the fans - most British people could tell you what a Dalek was without having watched an episode of Doctor Who. Apart from possibly the Weeping Angels, there's no NuWho alien that comes close to that degree of mainstream recognition (and even then the Angels don't match the Daleks in terms of fame). RTD had really hoped the Tritovores in Planet of the Dead would become an iconic alien that would show up again and become distinctive, but they never amounted to it. Moffat's Silent's in Series 6 perhaps had greater potential to be iconic, and are amongst fans at least, but the stories they had didn't serve them well enough to gain ahold in the public eye. And apart from a small role in The Time of the Doctor they've not been used since at all and probably rank alongside the likes of the Ood when it comes to being recognisable. It's highly unlikely that Moffat and the creators approach the designs of these aliens with anything less than the best intentions that they'll grip viewers. It's very easy to claim you'll rest the Daleks and bring in new and iconic villains that viewers will love - but theres' no way of knowing your ideas will be loved. There's no way of knowing that they'll be successfully realised. And in eleven years of NuWho no new aliens have captured the audience in quite the same way that the Daleks do - efforts from nearly thirty writers over the course of one hundred and thirty episodes. This is without considering other issues... finding the budget for new ideas isn't a guarantee but the Daleks are always on standby when the budget is maxed out. And we'll never know what agreements exist behind-the-scenes that keep the Daleks accessible to the BBC - an eventuality that was nearly missed back in 2005. I'm all for more varied writing of the Daleks, and of pacing them effectively (we've now had three consecutive series that have put them in stories right near the start... mix things up with a middle-of-series Dalek story, or a standalone Dalek story right before the end).

If I want Doctor Who to do anything with the aliens it includes, it's actually what Class is doing - and that's remembering that not all aliens are of the plotting and scheming variety. Part of why I liked the Adipose in Series 4 was that they weren't your typical strategists looking for global domination, or anything quite so sinister. There's a universe out there where some aliens are genuinely and obviously innocent, where some are more like wildlife than actual people (i.e. The Swarm, the dragon in Class) and some are threats you can't argue with at all (i.e. the strange petals in Class). If Doctor Who did a bit more of this I wouldn't complain.

Watching this series just makes me miss The Sarah Jane Adventures even more than before. God, I miss SJA so badly that it hurts.

The opening title sequence for Class is just awful. I really don't like it.

The first episode was directed well and there some decent moments including the Doctor's appearance but the script was really on the poor side for me. The opening episode was very iffy as a whole. Second episode was slightly better but the gore seemed very out of place. I felt like it really didn't fit with the episode in particular, especially with its tone and whatnot.

The third episode was sort of better but at the same time, it was meh. It was okay. Bit of a step up and step down from the previous two. Good to see more of Tanya's background and the increased focus on her. She stood out a bit for this one, but the Ram and April thing was not believable in the slightest. Felt like it was just thrown in the episode. They hardly interacted with each other before so this whole thing felt like it just came out of nowhere very quickly. Felt rather rushed and forced to me since I was under the impression that they were doing a slow burner with him and Tanya but I suppose not.

Episode 4 was sort of a step down for me. I know the characters haven't been together for very long but I would at least expect some of them to show a bit of concern for each other just a little bit, considering the stuff they've gone through in the past there episodes. Maybe it's just me but I felt like Ram was the only one concerned for April, despite the thing they have being forced. I'd expect the likes of Tanya and Charlie to show a bit of concern but they were pretty distant from her until the end of the episode whereas they interacted with her more in the first episode. Like Lady of Traken said, it feels like they are soloists trying to band together.

At the moment, Class is giving me very mixed signals. There's a bit of good in it but the execution of certain scenes and scripts have been a bit on the poor side but I'm still gonna give this series a chance just to see how it goes. If it gets better then great but if not, then that will probably be it from me.

At the moment, none of the current episodes have really stood out to me which is kinda disappointing.

Personally, I don't see what more can be done with the Daleks at the moment. Quite bland episode after bland episode with them has obviously tarnished my view on them. I didn't dislike them from the start, but it's grown into that because it feels 'for the sake of it' with their appearances. The stories haven't felt necessary in my opinion when something could have taken its place.

I fully understand the money spinning thing about them as toys etc, but if my era actually went ahead, I wouldn't make it a blanket ban on Daleks, I'll make that clear. They would still be referenced on screen and be in merchandise etc, but just wouldn't be in episodes. I would want their return to be actually worthwhile. They would still sell, they'd still be a part of the show.

And, as I've said previously, if they had to appear (due to a contract or something like that), then I'd make them have cameos akin to The Wedding of River Song. Nothing more. It all just comes down to personal taste obviously, but to me, I'd want to extend the history of the show. Bogging it down year in, year out with yet another Dalek story is detrimental to the show in my opinion. It makes it feel very small and insular.

I get your point about not knowing how well any other villian etc would be received - no-one knew at the time about the Daleks - but the show should take risks and find the new Daleks so to speak. Yes of course budget might limit things, but there is a thing call human enemies or human-looking enemies. They don't all have to be actors covered in paint and prosthetics

My era (as I've said I've planned it out a bit) does have a mix of new villians, both alien and human (or human-like), and the likes of the Cybermen in. The Daleks wouldn't be forgotten but just put to one side to make their eventual return much awaited as to me, the gaps you mention above weren't that long.

Obviously six years might be a bit too much the other way, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. I know my ideas aren't exactly popular on here (that's not unusual).

Then again, in my head I do in some ways think of Doctor Who as a kind of Scooby Doo in space, which is obviously not the norm I know...

I think the Daleks killed him by sending a death-charge into the earpiece they used to control him. That story was set in 1963 so he would be long gone by now anyway, but it would be a nice bit of continuity to have him remembered in Class.

No, I'm fairly sure Missy specifically said they can't die. I mean, we actually see them "sort of" living in the sewers, which I think's just going a bit too far. I like your idea about them being incredibly "tough" so to speak, and very hard to finish off, but I think Moffat was basically saying they literally can't die (unless you vaporize them or something I guess)