That's a really disappointing comment to hear from someone who seems so imaginative. That's the point of being a showrunner or writer, you have to try and find what else to do. You can't really just throw your hands up and say "I dunno what else we can do with these monsters."

Also, you idea of finding the "new daleks" is a fine idea, but it's not that easy. It would take an absolute stroke of genius to introduce a monster with as much acclaim as they've received over the years.

Oops. Genuinely, I have tried to think through ideas as to what I can do with Daleks but other than your run of the mill base under siege story or the "good" Dalek kind of thing, I drew up a blank. In terms of any kind of appearance, a dying Dalek in an episode plot I've already got is the only way I could think of including them. That was it. It would only be on screen for two minutes at most.

In terms of Cybermen though, I have ideas with what to do with them that's different. I feel they've become too much like robots, I want to make them more human again, but in a kind of horrific way if you know what I mean.

And yes, I know it would be a struggle to get an enemy with much acclaim as the Daleks, but I think it's worth trying.

I posted a couple of days after the first two episodes that episode 1 wasn't near the iPlayer top-10 whilst episode 2 wasn't even in the top-40. Neither episode since then made the top-10 and has completely dropped out of the top-40 within a couple of days.

Not good for a show available exclusively on the iPlayer. No doubt if/when the show finally airs on BBC2, people will blame its low figures on "most people" having already watched it on the iPlayer etc...

Would the series have been more popular if it were set in an American high school, with an American cast?

As for Daleks (although it's quite telling that the last few pages of a thread about Class is taken up by Dalek talk), what about an 'Alien' style episode where a Dalek out of its damaged travel machine is loose on a ship, slowly killing (and eating bits of) the crew and sabotaging the ship? Either a space ship or a 17th century sailing ship.

It's true though, you are talking like someone who totally lacks imagination. Which clearly isn't true, considering you've devised a full six year plan for the show.

Here, how about this;

The Doctor makes a terrible mistake and arrives in 2160(ish), the height of the Dalek invasion of Earth (as opposed to the end, as seen in the William Hartnell story.)

He is captured and sent to work in their mine. These are the Daleks of old, and as such, have no idea who he is. So rather than kill him, they simply take him prisoner and put him to work with the other miners.

Therefore, we are not seeing a base under siege, nor a Dalek turning good, nor even a battle with the Daleks. We are seeing something often alluded to, yet never deeply explored- life under the Dalek's rule. Watching how utterly cruel and terrible life in a Dalek camp is would, if done right, really hammer home just how dreadful they are, which in turn could really put a fresh surge into them as characters.

Naturally the Doctor escapes, but to his regret, he is unable to actually do anything for the other prisoners, let alone try and defeat the Daleks. Fixed history states that the invasion is ended with the arrival of the First Doctor, which doesn't happen for a few more years in Earth's timeline.

What do you think?

You keep saying things like this but I don't think anybody's arguing against it

I don't think a lack of attention is at all surprising considering how non-existent promotion for the show has been. It's a shame, I think, as it's been enjoyable for me so far and I think there's potential for the show to really pick up given time. It's nothing that will blow the world away but there's definitely something going, I'm just skeptical it'll be renewed for a second series.

I certainly find the characters a lot more likable and sympathetic than Torchwood's bunch ever were (date-rape generally isn't a good way to introduce a protagonist ), they just perhaps need to flesh out their interactions a little more. Four episodes in and you'd think Ram and April are supposed to be Romeo and Juliet.

If I'm honest, that idea doesn't sparkle to me in anyway sadly. (Don't take offence!) I can't actually see much scope in that, maybe its just how my brain's interpreting what you've written, but it seems quite one note (again please don't take offence).

We already know the Daleks are bad, so just hammering it home again doesn't do much for me sadly. What we already know is what we know. I can't see it adding much to them as characters.

To me, if you're going have them in the show, you've got to do something new with them. The same old, same old doesn't do it for me...

Sorry!

No offence taken, opinions are opinions man .

I don't think it's one note, I think it's exploring new territory in terms of showing us things that have only been briefly touched upon in past stories. It's what someone else said, it would remind people that they aren't just "evil" they are truly revolting specimens, delibaratley designed to be the worst of the worst. Only if done right of course.

Now and again, I think viewers need reminding why they love to hate Daleks.

Fair enough. I can see what you mean a bit better now but still don't see it as a 'wow' kind of thing if you get my drift. I just don't get the point in reinforcing what we know already, but we've already been there!

I'm sure we'll find something we can agree on at some point.

Hopefully man!

The rage spoiler thing was a joke by the way.

Too many bland catalogue models with dull Hollyoaks-esque 'good looks'. I'm nae having this nonsense. My high school year photo looked more like The Bash Street Kids rather than an airbrushed H & M advert. Funny that Mr P. Ness' desperate struggle to be inclusive doesn't extend to 'ugly' people. Must be a shallow fellow. Where's the chub? The acne? The braces? The awkwardness? The so-called 'geeky' Girl would have been Queen of my school. Funny. Beautiful. Clever. Sociable. It's cloud cuckoo land!

Brilliant.

I take your point, and even agree with some of it. I'll concede that whilst I enjoyed The Witch's Familiar, it was Davros rather than the Daleks that made it compelling (as in he was the soldier, they're just the gun... the soldier is better). And part of my problem with The Magician's Apprentice - one of only a few episodes in Series 9 I didn't like - was the Daleks themselves. But I think the issue with the Daleks in the Moffat-era is actually more down to poor direction of them.

Their Series 5 story speaks volumes. Because as much as people were starting to realise how they were being used quite excessively, people also felt that Victory of the Daleks would have worked better as a two-parter. And whilst the story as a whole fell flat, it might have worked better with a bit more substance spread across two episodes, I agree with that. The problem was deciding to chuck the Daleks in as quickly as possible, which Moffat admits was his intention with both Victory of the Daleks and Into the Dalek. Make a new Doctor feel like the Doctor by getting him facing his most iconic foe. Unfortunately that came at an expense. Not only did Victory of the Daleks kind of flop in plot terms (it wasn't without it's charms either) the new design was massively criticised. The combination of one of the worst spaceship sets NuWho has had, combined with the Humpback Quintet meant that they just didn't go down well. I admit that I quite liked the White Supreme (as bad as that probably sounds! ) but concur the new design was heavily flawed and poorly done. A shame, as part of the excitement of the Daleks was seeing new designs... seeing the black Dalek appear at the end of Army of Ghosts made you wonder why it looked different and it turned out it was a rather significant Dalek. Seeing the Red Supreme in Series 4 had fan theories going and it again was quite iconic. Moffat fell immediately at this hurdle. And it's a shame as in theory there were ideas there that never got realised... a scientist, a strategist, an eternal, a drone and a supreme dalek. There's five potential story ideas for you there at least. Eternity of the Daleks... a story of what happens when the Daleks take control of a Tardis? Or why the Eternal Dalek is the eternal Dalek? But because he stumbled there, the Daleks since have pretty much stood still with minimal efforts at reinvention or redefinition.

And it's the biggest shame because your "for the sake of it" point is right on the money. Regardless of how good or bad a Dalek story is, it feels like an obligation when they show up because for the past few years they've been poorly managed and paced. Even a better story (in my opinion) like The Witch's Familiar is marred by bringing back the Dalek Sec and Red Supreme props - which people recognise - and having them just serve as set dressing now. It ironically undermines the unique identity that the Daleks have. In fact the biggest irony of the daleks (that's a great episode title btw!) is that for all their removal of emotions and humanity/identity - they actually work best when you give them unique identities. Mad, god-complex Emperors in Series 1, Daleks exploring humanity in Series 3 (I don't think the Daleks themselves were the issues with that two-parter), even the Ironside Dalek design in Series 5 struck a chord. I'd argue one of Moffat's weaknesses is he just doesn't have a proper vision for the Daleks, and his longevity has contributed to a stale feeling where they're concerned. But I do differ when it comes to thinking that someone else won't be able to reinvigorate them again.


The problem is again a balancing act though. Hypothetically speaking if a Dalek only gets a small cameo in a future series, the odds are that they're going to use an old Dalek prop to deliver that, rather than pursuing a new take on them, or a new design. From a merchandising stance, that's bad news. No new design, no new toy, sales stagnate. No new design, no new prop for the Doctor Who experience, attendance slows. Now I don't for a minute support the idea that the show should ever have to pander to merchandise sales but that's precisely why it's a balancing act. Being showrunner means having to at least make sure some of what you're delivering is marketable. And unfortunately no Doctor Who toy is going to sell like a new kind of Dalek.

All the same I do agree that their eventual return should always be worthwhile. Again, I feel Moffat has missed a trick by having all of his Dalek stories occur right near the start of the respective series (barring Time of the Doctor, which wasn't a Dalek story per se anyway). It feels like getting them out of the way rather than presenting them as a credible threat. Each story has its merits, and Series 9 works more because it offered up a Davros story rather than a Dalek story (their reputation is unfortunately collateral damage there), but it might be better to work them in towards the end of a series somewhere. If you have to include them, do so in different ways each time.


I don't necessarily think there's a problem in having some more reflective years, so long as they don't become the status quo. I'm fine with how nostalgic Series 9 was, so long as Series 10 is nothing like it. But there's the whole of time and space to work with, and not every Dalek story has to be a continuity-heavy encounter with them. Again a balancing act - maintain their notoriety and don't undermine them, but don't roll them out as an obligation, give them some decent writing. One strength of Into the Dalek was that it just drops in at a random time and there's a mass Dalek threat... no massive arc or anything, it just dropped the Daleks on you, as any proper threat should be able to do at any time. The problem was the episode then recycled the plot of a superior Series 1 episode rather than trying to do anything new with it. You could have any number of stories that just drop the Daleks in and explore a concept with them, before wrapping up - the notion of a reality where the Daleks have a Tardis, or maybe a thriller-esque episode with a Special Weapons Dalek posing untold threats in a contemporary setting - it won't even slow down to talk with the Doctor like most Daleks do...there's a relentless, adrenaline-fuelled story to be had in that. I'm sure a professional writer could come up with better ideas than that, but these are ideas I wouldn't mind seeing regardless. It just takes imagination - the Daleks, genocidal pepperpots with whisks and plungers, demand that.


Now I agree with that entirely. It needs new icons... the promo material hasn't had a proper new addition in a few years now. And even some humanoid threats wouldn't go amiss. I love Missy to pieces but there was a brief moment in Dark Water before we knew she was The Master where the Doctor learns she was a Timelord... and it's such an exciting moment with the thought she could be absolutely anyone, and it has the Doctor panicking. The show needs to have an 'anyone' again. A new threat who isn't someone we just saw pop by last week. I wasn't clambering for The Master to be back in Series 8 and felt it was still too soon after Simm, whilst the brief excitement at a new villain was very real as well. I ended up loving Missy (much more than Simm's Master) and it was a great new take on a classic enemy. But it's a fair point to say we want a great new take on a new enemy.


Funnily enough that's the vibe I get from Class, and part of what I like about it. An ensemble gang facing different threats in each story - some stories are bigger than others spreading into multiple episodes, but the basis is quite conventionally about a team/gang/group that fights villains of an alien description. And so far the 'alien' aspect has been lived up to very well in four episodes, even if you're not a fan of the show itself. In those four episodes we've had The Shadow Kin - a rather sinister people from far across the universe who have motives for their own kind. Then there was the dragon, which straddled the line between 'alien fauna' as it were, and an intelligent being capable of interaction with people. The third was the Lankin which straddled the line between 'alien flora', and an intelligent being capable of interaction with people. And the fourth is the strange alien petals, which seem to be just out and out 'alien flora'. It's more richly diverse than a series of Doctor Who which features Davros, The Fisher King, The Mire, The Zygons and The Timelords - all plotting, scheming villains who think in a very villainous way but are essentially humanoid. Alien threats from nature, alien nature, are a great start at diversifying threats in Doctor Who and making them less repetitive. Class has managed to do this better than Doctor Who currently does and it makes the universe (which is left to your imagination) feel immensely bigger as a result.

And on that note, apologies from straying off-topic from Class for most of that but I felt it was an interesting subject!

Personally, I never felt Victory of the Daleks should have been a two-parter. Its ideas were good (as are most Gatiss ideas) but he so often fails to exectute them well that they end up rather flat. I think in the hands of someone else, it defiintely could have been better. They've been forever likened to Nazi's over the years that the time we're actually in an episode at the time of them, it kind of missed its point and felt too generic. Yes, we had Churchill, but the actual (real-life) threat felt so lacking it took a lot away from the episode for me.

I never minded the 'big' Daleks either, just the paint scheme, which they later altered for Asylum was rather off-putting at first. Your idea of the Eternal Dalek does sound appealing (you might be converting me here ) so that is somewhere with potential, but as you say it's been badly handled that it's all going to be rather jarring now.

I think I remember Moffat saying that he preferred writing his own creations than using the already established enemies because he could shape them as he wanted etc. That might explain the lack of planning and shaping of the Daleks under him. They're just not for him for some reason and I feel the same.

I fear I'd either completely ruin them for fans or just continue with safe, run of the mill stuff that doesn't explore the history of them or make them exciting or thrilling again. It's probably why my ideas don't focus around them. I say all this and then have ideas for the Sea Devils and Cybermen, so that's a contradiciton!


I fully get your point here and do understand that behind the scenes there would be nudges here and then to get new things for the merchandise, although not specifically, but nudging you into it just so it can sell.

Obviously, how I first came across on here with my idea was probably forceful in that I wouldn't do x,y,z etc, but of course I would take all these things into consideration. I think my dislike of the Daleks rather got out hand at first. Balance is key, I get it.

I think with how disenfranchised I've become with the show the last two seris hasn't helped me either, although I've had my plans for a while longer. I've taken to them even more while I've not been enjoying the main show.


I wasn't eager for the Master's return either if I'm honest but agree that Missy has been great for the show - one of very few things I've actually enjoyed since Peter came into the role. But your point of a threat from anyone at any time is what I miss at the moment. It's that insular feeling that although I know it's not true as the threats have been varied, they just don't feel it.

Tonally, the show's been all too similar of late and that's what I'd like to change. It should feel different every week (barring my two-parters) in both the actual colours on screen and the type of adventure. Everything has just felt so dark and lacking vibrancy since Series 8 (barring Husbands of River Song) that the lack of new icons is really showing to me. It feels the same every week, even if it's not.

In all of this, I just want the show to feel fun again. I feel it's forgotten how to be fun and has kind of got stuck in this rut of dark, brooding stories in look and feel that can be rather off-putting.

That Scooby Doo vibe I mentioned before is just how feel Doctor Who should be. Doctor and companion (or companions as I do in my stories) arrive somewhere, something bad happens, they investigate, find/stop the bad guy and in effect save the day.

Obviously that's the show in its most basic form and other things will all be in and around that within any given episode, but DW is a simple beast of a show at heart. Whether that includes Daleks or not is one thing, but it just feels 'off' at the moment if you get what I mean.

And I've enjoyed this discussion too even if we've gone off-topic!

I've only watched episode 1 yet. It was ok, however I absolutely loved to see the writers included an in-joke reference to the Bechdel Test, lol. Hilarious

I've watched every episode so far.

I think as a Sci-Fi show set in a school it would work. But as a Doctor Who spin off it doesn't.

I can't put my finger on it but it just lacks something. Sarah Jane adventures has it. Torchwood had it. Doctor Who obviously has it but this doesn't.

With SJA and TW if you watched them and never saw the Doctor you would still know that they were spins offs from Doctor Who.

If the doctor hadn't been in the first episode and you weren't told you wouldn't have a clue what show this one was a spin off of (besides he Cole hill reference).

Hope that actually makes sense.

Now THIS was clever writing. Some might suggest that rather than harp on about such things in a rather tedious and self-righteous fashion the best thing would be to actually just pass the ruddy-bloody thing and keep quiet counsel, pausing only to toast yourself of a Saturday evening with a particularly fruity cocktail, a wistful look across the room to the Buffy boxset and not a care or worry about the fact that only 763 people are watching your glossy, over produced shambles of a PSA...sorry, I mean SHOW (anyone that doesnt like Class is either a sexist, a homophone, a racist, or an OLD person- gross- and we know what we say to them!). Luckily for us Mr P. Ness is yet to discover the words irony or subtlety and so this brave warrior of the written word can continue to delight us with META META META sitting where a well rounded and realistic character should be. It's modern television, 2016, and you are welcome to it. (No Ugly People Allowed).

NUPA.

I just watched the next 3 and found them to be much better than episode 1. Still a bit uneven, but more entertaining than that first episode. The characters are beginning to grow on me.

On the PC front, while it ticks a lot of boxes, all the main YA characters are fairly middle class, living comfortable or monied lives. No "working class" (what Americans would call "blue collar") representative. It feels like the sort of "diversity" someone from a white middle class background would create if they had no real understanding of what a lack of money can be like.

I'm not in favour of the simplistic "box ticking" of diversity, but this is a significant omission in my book, and something SJA did a little better.

Just seen episode 5, honestly don't know what to make of it. So much happened in those 45 minutes and i felt it excelled in character development in this episode still a couple lingering issues in this episode. The flower plot was quite thin, but gave us that great scene with Quill and Charlie and that was definitely the focus of this episode. Charcters over the plot which is a good thing in my eyes as long as the plot is not poor, which i didn't find this to be. But for an 8 episode season you can definitely see why they are pushing certain aspects a bit faster than expected.

Be interesting to see where they grow from hear, pretty much all characters now have had quite a bit of development which was definitely the focus in the first 5 episodes, but can they extend on this and actually start some world building. Lets see some other students reactions, or a conversation about anything please like, how Quill is insane and shouldn't be a teacher. Spark some life into this world now.

Yes it does to me.

Hahaha P. Ness never get tired of that. And I know what you mean they look too pretty pretty, but thats television for you.

Yes, I felt the same.

SJA and Torchwood had that Doctor Who feel, and also characters we'd already met in DW. Class seems disconnected, somehow.

Perhaps a character who had actually been in the series might have helped to make it feel part of the whole franchise?

(Or, as I would have preferred, a Paternoster gang spin off instead).

The fifth episode felt like a finale in a lot of ways both good and bad - sense of scale, good. Focus on most or all of the characters, good. Apocalyptic threat, good. Maybe too much crammed in for its own good, potential bad.

Appropriately for the title of the episode, I think its heart was in the right place. It managed to make time for everyone to do or say something and that's impressive. The Underneath is yet another similarity to Buffy with its Hellmouth, but the story behind the Shadow Kin world was an interesting world-building kind of one that fits in perfectly fine with Doctor Who's universe. I felt it was well realised considering the budget, with the marching army being quite ambitious but working quite well - even Doctor Who limits itself in this kind of area, so it was great to see Class not holding back. Also praise for the choreography of the fighting between April and the King. As a Game of Thrones viewer we were treated this year to choreography in that that outclassed Star Wars and countless other Hollywood films, and so Class is never going to be top of the league but it was surprisingly well done.

There was never going to be much to a story about killer petals, but they made it work very well and again focused it on the characters rather than the threat. I really do like that the show is exploring alien flora and fauna as well as alien people - it makes it much more diverse, even than Doctor Who. April and Ram's scenes feel a little cheesy, especially when they begin a long slur of dialogue as the world watches around them. Tanya is an outlier but has really come into her own and she's fantastic. Quill, Charlie and Matteusz are fantastic together though and I'd happily watch a whole series of just the three of them. Dorothea is also an intriguing character, and the stand-off between her and the others was one of the best scenes of the show so far. I love the way she reels off pre-empting everything - filling the gaps of logic that most shows overlook. The Governors seem to be the ones dealing with the breadcrumb trail of alien destruction that leads to Coal Hill, and so far it's a satisfying way of covering up the mess being made.

I also knew I'd seen the actress playing Dorothea somewhere before, and it turns out she had a role in Doctor Who - namely A Christmas Carol back in 2010. One of my favourite episodes, which simply made me like Class even more - even if a little irrationally on that front

Given how nostalgic Doctor Who has been for a while I enjoy how refreshing and new all of this feels - it does mean a slight detachment from the main show admittedly, but if it's enjoyable it's enjoyable, and I find it enjoyable. There's nothing stopping more Doctor Who references along the way... maybe even a villain from the show cropping up...maybe even a crossover into Doctor Who itself. But for now I like how original this feels, whilst the prospect of occasional Who content makes it additionally rewarding.

The only issue I really have with Class, to balance things out a bit, is its overall pacing. I think they're doing a great job at cramming as much as possible into the episodes themselves. They're managing competent plots whilst also developing a whole ensemble cast of characters that has never been seen before. It's quite impressively done, but there is still only so much you can do with a run of eight episodes and they're storming through it. Whilst it keeps it pacy, and the show has the confidence to slow down as well, eight episodes might just not be enough to fully realise the potential of this series and hopefully a second series will have a few more episodes - just for the sake of breathing room.

My thoughts after these 5 episodes and the chance of it getting a 2nd season.

Positives
I feel some of the character development has been excellent, specifically for Charlie and Quill and this great work has gotten us to understand about the characters. The Shadow Kin plot i definitely enjoyed and have enjoyed the majority of these episodes. The governors as well are most definitely interesting and it'll be great to learn more about them, they also explain how this rift has been dealt with. But mainly the character development has been the best thing about the show.

Negatives
While character development has been very good at some points, it has also been quite poor. April and Ram, don't buy it, don't buy how easily they have dealt with everything either having especially for Ram, no consequences. Which leads to my next point lack of consequences and this last episode acted as a reset to make matters worse. That terrible excuse that it was a test for Charlie and Quill, all the Shadowkin powers and such gone and then the emotional reset.

Next issue is 5 episodes in, they resemble nothing of the sort of a team, everyone is off on their own little agendas which leads to character sidelining and rushed plots. Which leads me to the poor pacing, i understand it is 8 episodes but you need to plan for it. You have 8 episodes, so have less content in it, don't have a monster of the week 2nd episode use the time better which shows Ness may be punching above his weight on being a showrunner at this stage. Because right now it can take you out of the story.

Then we have the world building problem, no one exists on Earth apart from this crew, their families and the governors after 5 episodes. You are in a school, show us the everyday life of some of these students, lets see what they feel about what goes on in this school. Right now the show has cut themselves off from the world, which is even worse since they are cut off from each other as well.

So overall though, the episodes haven't been terrible i actually found them all quite enjoyable with some substance, but the negatives far outweigh the positives and my main positive is heavily weakened by some equally poor character work. At this rate, no chance of a 2nd season.

It has been billed as a Doctor Who spin off, but it feels more like a stand alone series and in my opinion it suffers from the fact that it's trying to cram too much in to 8 episodes. I watch it, but I don't particularly connect with what I'm seeing.

The WMD/Boyfriend being killed dilemma - was particularly flat - and the whole Shadow Kin arc, if it can be called that, was a bit blah. The characters are rather two dimensional and the Ram/April thing is way too forced. I did like the idea of the characters as separate individuals caught up in their own lives with fleeting interactions between them, then being forced to come together to face some adversity that opens up the world of Who to them and we get to see team develop, but the story line went from A straight to Z and there was nothing in between accept killer alien self-replicating flora. That being said I think it has potential to be great if it is left to develop a longer series perhaps and a story arch connecting events and I like that it explores the more grown up darker side of the Whoniverse like Torchwood series did.

Coal Hill School (although it bares no resemblance to the Coal Hill of Clara Oswald and Danny Pink) is an interesting setting and it is a good seeing what happens in the Doctor's wake and how humanity (with a little alien assistance) deals with the fall out of the damage the Doctor has done. The Governors thing may be a good path to go down... It is clear that the school has certainly made it's mark on the Universe and time so it makes sense that a secretive organisation would be interested.

I will continue to watch it.

I quite like it. I mean, it's not amazing or anything, but I've decided it needs a bit of time to find its feet. It's entertaining enough, though the one down side is that it feels a bit limited because they have to stay within the confines of Coal Hill.

Part of the appeal to Doctor Who (for me at least) is that he travels through time and space. But Class is pretty much always going to be present day and in/around London.

The relationships have been a bit hasty -- Charlie and Matteusz/April and Ram -- both are portrayed as being madly in love, but they haven't long been together long. That said, I get that they don't have that many episodes so they clearly wanted to speed things up a bit. Quill is growing on me!