[M1kos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David_bl1

The Mobile Infrastructure Project (MIP) was a much better idea, but too many proposals became mired in planned objections and were shelved. If the Government had included planning permission exemptions for MIP masts then far more would have been built by now, and providing 2G/3G/4G technology.

Definitely. Exemptions would have allowed the scheme to be implemented instead of stupid short sighted councils getting in the way

[jaffboy151]

I've never felt there's been that attention to detail given to the UKs mobile networks to that you see in other countries, probably because of planning permission issues and lethargic lazy networks, I'm taking about depth/quality of coverage as well as geographical coverage. When in many overseas countries you see more efforts made to provide a continuous service, masts on hillsides in mountain areas removing blackspots, networks coverage in underground road tunnels, train and underground service on track and in tunnels, not just stations. Always seems to be better thought out then here, better use of mast position, height, frequencies used and the power, for some reason also I rarely see my phone with anything but a full signal on all technologies, unlike here. Mast density just seems more dense, it seems on the surface that mobile equipment is much more excepted in other countries then here, an appreciation that if you want to/ need to use mobile tech, you need mast towers, sometimes big mast towers to support this.
The only one which gave it a good shot was orange, loads of masts in strange places of various ingenious designs to provide coverage.

[moox]

Network Rail is an example of how well it can be done - there's continuous coverage on and around the railway. I can pick up the NR GSM-R network and I don't even live that close to the railway! (I'm a couple of miles from a very minor branch line)

They don't have to deal with pesky NIMBYs though, they're allowed to put masts where they like, as tall as they like, because it's a safety critical network, especially when ETCS comes in and trains need to be in constant communication with the signalling centres to report their location/speed/etc

Maybe it's time to let the public network operators do the same.

[Thine Wonk]

We have strict planning for a reason, but sometimes it goes WAY over the top over masts, to the point where networks spend tens of thousands trying to get applications through only for them to get declined by locals, then other locals complain about coverage.

You could take it to the other extreme like in India, this picture was taken when I on a work trip from the office window. There's so many and they are so tall that you can't even count them.

Click to zoom
http://imgur.com/a/6Kj2B

[rasseru16]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BKM

So French Bouygues subscribers are excluded from F-Contact??

3 phones were able to connect to Bouygues (as always) and Free (fairly recent) last time I was in France.

Orange F, Bouygues Télécom & SFR all have full access to the F-Contact network, currently newer rival Free have access to F-Contact sites controlled by Orange F.

I think we should also be able to roam on other network's 2G backup network for voice and sms coverage here in the UK.

[Gigabit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thine Wonk

We have strict planning for a reason, but sometimes it goes WAY over the top over masts, to the point where networks spend tens of thousands trying to get applications through only for them to get declined by locals, then other locals complain about coverage.

You could take it to the other extreme like in India, this picture was taken when I on a work trip from the office window. There's so many and they are so tall that you can't even count them.

Click to zoom
http://imgur.com/a/6Kj2B

But hold on in London you can't count the masts either. Surely it's more about having so many masts because the people are so densely populated?

[Thine Wonk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigabit

But hold on in London you can't count the masts either. Surely it's more about having so many masts because the people are so densely populated?

In london the masts are on rooftops and small cells, much lower monopoles but we're talking about widespread coverage I guess. I think the point I was making is planning is essential, but that we let the minority block masts which serve the majority in some cases.

[Mark C]

I've said it before, and there are drawbacks, but why not force the four mobile network operators to merge their networks into one 'super coverage' UK wide one, under shared ownership, and every network becomes an MNVO on that network ?

That way identical coverage, the competitive edge would merely be on packages and deals.

Exactly how the broadband market operates, over Openreach's phone network, although of course none (except BT retail) have any financial stake in OR, (perhaps they should ?)

[clewsy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark C

I've said it before, and there are drawbacks, but why not force the four mobile network operators to merge their networks into one 'super coverage' UK wide one, under shared ownership, and every network becomes an MNVO on that network ?

That way identical coverage, the competitive edge would merely be on packages and deals.

Exactly how the broadband market operates, over Openreach's phone network, although of course none (except BT retail) have any financial stake in OR, (perhaps they should ?)

That just restricts competition and investment in the longer term. Basically you get no incentive to invest and lead the way in new tech, you may as well all sit on the old kit and cash in. Also means prices could actually increase as the network company can start hiking prices of network access, which the customer pays for in the end.

Sadly it's going to be this way for a while until planning regs allow more rural masts and/or networks decide they want 100% geographical coverage. I guess the later can be done through regulation.

[BKM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasseru16

3 have removed their list of roaming providers now but they have almost always been able to use Bouygues Télécom but they have never been able to use F-Contact. Only EE, O2 & Vodafone customers have access to F-Contact.

The URL to the translation of the French Wikipedia entry on F-Contact in your post #19 in this thread says that "Customers of foreign operators in roaming in France have access to all F-CONTACT areas"

That should then include 3 roaming on Bouygues surely!

[Mark C]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clewsy

That just restricts competition and investment in the longer term. Basically you get no incentive to invest and lead the way in new tech, you may as well all sit on the old kit and cash in. Also means prices could actually increase as the network company can start hiking prices of network access, which the customer pays for in the end.

Sadly it's going to be this way for a while until planning regs allow more rural masts and/or networks decide they want 100% geographical coverage. I guess the later can be done through regulation.

You'll never achieve 100% coverage in an entirely free market, the only way is to force it via regulation.

It depends whether you think the mobile phone 'system' is part of our essential national infrastructure (It didn't start out that way) ?

In a merged network scheme, you'd regulate the network access charges, trouble is Ofcom !!

[clewsy]

A nationalised industry rarely leads the way. You basically want to create a massive monopoly of the infrastructure which means that somehow prices will go up, service will go down and we are paying for it.

The networks won't compete on price as they will know each others margins. They will know the carriage fees and will just set about working on price taking strategies to make sure they all are around the same price and then charge for every extra possible.

[Alex_1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Smith

The 112 and 999 numbers are already shared across networks.

Thanks Mark, nice to know

[jchamier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark C

I've said it before, and there are drawbacks, but why not force the four mobile network operators to merge their networks into one 'super coverage' UK wide one, under shared ownership, and every network becomes an MNVO on that network ?

How would you compensate the networks for the 20+ years of competition and the (high at 3G) licence fees they've paid to the Govt to be separate?

How would you manage capacity when you merge networks into one grid? Look how long its taking EE to merge the former Orange network with its slow 3G into the T-Mobile/EE core.

Quote:

That way identical coverage, the competitive edge would merely be on packages and deals.

Sounds like the gas & electricity market. Which hasn't been done for water. Its not all good.

Quote:

Exactly how the broadband market operates, over Openreach's phone network, although of course none (except BT retail) have any financial stake in OR, (perhaps they should ?)

Not quite, you still have unbundled, Openreach run the 'last mile' exchange to house copper, or exchange to fibre box shared fibre, and then box to home copper. Once at the exchange there is option to use BT services to get to the ISP, or for the ISP to run its network to the exchange (e.g. Sky) or to sell wholesale services (e.g. TalkTalk/Vodafone).

[Mark C]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchamier

How would you compensate the networks for the 20+ years of competition and the (high at 3G) licence fees they've paid to the Govt to be separate?

You possibly don't !! As I say, if you want the mobile phone system to be always on, and available in all places, and an essential national utility, that's what you might end up doing.

With things left as they are, no network will try for 100% coverage, they all earn enough
revenue from present coverage levels. (That's not to say, given a contractual obligation they would, look at EE's recently won emergency services contract)

Don't get me wrong, I'm no socialist, I actually agree with your sentiments regarding and electricity and gas, privatisation hasn't worked there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchamier

How would you manage capacity when you merge networks into one grid? Look how long its taking EE to merge the former Orange network with its slow 3G into the T-Mobile/EE core.

Are they still merging ?

[jchamier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark C

Are they still merging ?

Yes orange sites are disappearing and being recoloured to EE.

[hammy_y]

Sounds like a good idea in theory, but it really isn't. If it did happen where's the incentive for ANY operator to invest in rural areas when they can just wait for another operator to do it and use their signal?

The argument about foreign visitors getting better coverage is just due to roaming agreements, and it's the same when we go to other countries; why should the UK be any different?

It's also difficult to understand how it would technically work; would we be able to choose any network? Or would we only connect to other networks when NO SIGNAL was available on our home network? Would data speeds be restricted on other networks? Those are just a few very basic questions, NONE of which were addressed at all, which suggests to me that the MP's have no idea what they're on about.

IMO the solution to our poor coverage is strict coverage requirements, not national roaming. What do you guys think?

[clewsy]

Yep just say you have to do 95% geographical coverage.

Then you it to 96% and so on until we hit 100% in 5 years time.

[errea]

All foreign visitors I've known, have had access to all UK networks when needed, even if their home network sets a preferred partner.

Activating domestic roaming would only work in black-spots as the mobile will always default to it's home network. Assuming one network had sole coverage (in a particular location) then the other networks would make a business decision, to either absorb the roaming costs or build their own infrastructure.

When I use a 3 sim (in rural areas) it often can pick up a weak 3G 3 signal and a stronger 2G EE signal - it clings to it home network (3) for dear life but will roam onto 2G EE when that it all that is available and switches back to 3 when it is re-available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thine Wonk

Exactly the MPs don't understand technology, unskilled career politicians who haven't had experience of business are often talking out of their backside. Visitors only roam specifically with the roaming partners defined by their network provider, it can be more than one but it typically isn't all.

[rasseru16]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchamier

Yes orange sites are disappearing and being recoloured to EE.

There is a site on the A11 that has indeed been 4G'ed but still has the Orange antennas and Orange network code for 2G & 3G... weird

[BKM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by errea

All foreign visitors I've known, have had access to all UK networks when needed, even if their home network sets a preferred partner.

If true the UK is very unusual!! When I am abroad I ONLY get my UK network's partner network(s) - and all attempts to manually select all other available networks get rejected.

[rasseru16]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BKM

The URL to the translation of the French Wikipedia entry on F-Contact in your post #19 in this thread says that "Customers of foreign operators in roaming in France have access to all F-CONTACT areas"

That should then include 3 roaming on Bouygues surely!

Yes 3 has a roaming agreement with Bouygues Télécom but they were not included in the agreement to use F-Contact like the other UK networks, I am not sure why.

[errea]

When I've roamed abroad I've usually had access to all local networks.

The only exceptions were 3 but that was a cost saving measure for Feel at Home and when I was last in Paris O2 had a dispute with SFR meaning I couldn't roam onto it.

Even where operators have preferred partners, they will let you still use the other networks that they have roaming agreements with, when needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BKM

If true the UK is very unusual!! When I am abroad I ONLY get my UK network's partner network(s) - and all attempts to manually select all other available networks get rejected.

[david16]

Pebble Mobile already exists for people who want to be guaranteed to be able to pick up a signal from a mobile operator no matter which operator it is.