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FIFA bans poppies on shirts for the England v Scotland match


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Old 21-11-2016, 11:51
FusionFury
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TBF it IS a political statement.

I back FIFA on this issue. I mean surely you can show your support in other ways, you don't need to wear poppies.
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Old 21-11-2016, 11:58
Deep Purple
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How awful, what a terrible thing to say, to keep politics, religion, out of football.

This forum is baffling.
No, you are baffling. Have you not worked out why you get so much grief?

It's like the soldier claiming "I'm the only one not out of step".
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Old 21-11-2016, 12:07
codeblue
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No, you are baffling. Have you not worked out why you get so much grief?

It's like the soldier claiming "I'm the only one not out of step".
Just because there are three forum members who seemingly disagree with my opinions and follow me around d the forum doing so doesn't make them correct and myself incorrect.

I get grief from you because you do not understand the poppy is a political symbol and doesn't belong on a football shirt. I accept that grief, though I'd rather is was disagreement of my opinion than a personal attack.

You clearly draw strength from the safety of numbers ,I personally am happy to disagree with the masses if I feel I have a strong argument. I'm happy to "march out of step".
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Old 21-11-2016, 12:11
The_don1
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How awful, what a terrible thing to say, to keep politics, religion, out of football.

This forum is baffling.
Football has a deep and long connection to the armed services.

Its not about keeping things in or out of football, Its about ensuring the games history is respected and kept.

Football did not start with the Premiership.
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Old 21-11-2016, 12:28
codeblue
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Football has a deep and long connection to the armed services.

Its not about keeping things in or out of football, Its about ensuring the games history is respected and kept.

Football did not start with the Premiership.
There is a lot of football history that we want to kick out and forget
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Old 21-11-2016, 12:59
The_don1
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There is a lot of football history that we want to kick out and forget
You mean you do?
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Old 21-11-2016, 13:40
Deep Purple
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Just because there are three forum members who seemingly disagree with my opinions and follow me around d the forum doing so doesn't make them correct and myself incorrect.

I get grief from you because you do not understand the poppy is a political symbol and doesn't belong on a football shirt. I accept that grief, though I'd rather is was disagreement of my opinion than a personal attack.

You clearly draw strength from the safety of numbers ,I personally am happy to disagree with the masses if I feel I have a strong argument. I'm happy to "march out of step".
The poppy has a well established definition about what it is for. The vast majority see that. You are out of step by making up your own meaning for it.
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Old 21-11-2016, 15:16
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They ironically have been hijacked. They used to represent fallen soldiers who died fighting for our freedom in ww2 (or for zero reason in ww1)

Since ww2 no soldiers have died for the freedom of the uk, zero, zilch, not one. There is a massive difference between the two. Let me illustrate:

Conscripted "soldiers" fighting nazi soldiers in trenches in ww2 , going over the top, into certain death of machine gun fire.

Or paid mercenaries fighting a political war for oil and control of the middle east in Iraq2, Libya et al. Using air power, missiles, drones in an unfair fight.

I'm not donating a single bean to the latter.

Poppies represent both the best and the worst of the uk. Both at home and internationally. Soldiers should not be seen or have any place on a football pitch.

Let's just let football be football .
You appear to be the one "politicising" the symbol of the poppy. It was always a respected symbol worn to remember those who sacrificed their lives in war. The rights and wrongs of those wars were irrelevant.
As I keep repeating, it was never meant to be a symbol glorifying war or to celebrate our victories. Quite the opposite, it was worn with a sadness at the futility of war. In that respect, you could almost argue that it was anti-political and anti war-mongering.

I happen to agree, perhaps they shouldn't have members of the armed forces as part of that remembrance at football grounds, whatever their previous connection to clubs. But I can see nothing wrong with the players and fans wearing poppies for a respectful one or two minutes silence in the spirit that was originally intended.
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Old 21-11-2016, 19:30
mcg3
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I happen to agree, perhaps they shouldn't have members of the armed forces as part of that remembrance at football grounds, whatever their previous connection to clubs. But I can see nothing wrong with the players and fans wearing poppies for a respectful one or two minutes silence in the spirit that was originally intended.
As has been mentioned by others though, we seem to be witnessing a modern day phenomenom now.

Only 10 or so years ago there wasn't the need to be "seen" to be displaying the poppy, why now all of a sudden has it become an issue.

If players and fans feel the need to show their respect there is a designated day,date and time for it.
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Old 21-11-2016, 19:40
The_don1
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You appear to be the one "politicising" the symbol of the poppy. It was always a respected symbol worn to remember those who sacrificed their lives in war. The rights and wrongs of those wars were irrelevant.
As I keep repeating, it was never meant to be a symbol glorifying war or to celebrate our victories. Quite the opposite, it was worn with a sadness at the futility of war. In that respect, you could almost argue that it was anti-political and anti war-mongering.

I happen to agree, perhaps they shouldn't have members of the armed forces as part of that remembrance at football grounds, whatever their previous connection to clubs. But I can see nothing wrong with the players and fans wearing poppies for a respectful one or two minutes silence in the spirit that was originally intended.
Is that really possible? Look at Chelsea and Arsenal alone, Our connection to the Pensioner's goes back to day one and even recently the red in our strip not so long ago was due to our connection to them and also what with our location etc, Arsenal as well their name is due to their connection with the Royal Arsenal etc, Should tells really change or remove such important aspects of their history?
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Old 21-11-2016, 20:46
timboy
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Both FA's wanted this
Did they? I'm not so sure they wanted it as opposed to they wanted to avoid any potential media backlash.

Remember, the poppy has been on sale for ~95 years, for the first 90 or so of those year both FAs didn't give a stuff about wearing it on their shirts.

It isn't anbout actually caring but about being seen to care.

and the players were all happy with
Were they? How do you know this?

Once again I think that this is more to do with the media backlash they would have faced had they said they didn't want to wear a poppy.

Talk about an over the top post, with a complete lack of understanding.

Keep your pound.
What he is saying is true. There is a vast difference between conscripted soldiers and the hired killers that they are these days.
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Old 21-11-2016, 23:52
RichmondBlue
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Is that really possible? Look at Chelsea and Arsenal alone, Our connection to the Pensioner's goes back to day one and even recently the red in our strip not so long ago was due to our connection to them and also what with our location etc, Arsenal as well their name is due to their connection with the Royal Arsenal etc, Should tells really change or remove such important aspects of their history?
I was really talking about international games and club games against foreign sides. FIFA has no jurisdiction over the Premier League and other domestic games, does it ?
The difficulty with the England v Scotland game was that both FA's were in favour of marking Remembrance Day but FIFA insisted on sticking to their rules (where the definitions were questionable and open to debate)
I'm just saying that maybe a compromise with just a simple minute or two minutes silence before the game might have been more acceptable. But what we do in domestic games is our business, or at least it should be.
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Old 22-11-2016, 09:12
Deep Purple
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What he is saying is true. There is a vast difference between conscripted soldiers and the hired killers that they are these days.
I think we know where you stand. Many soldiers in the two world wars were volunteers. Were they hired killers?

They all joined to do a job, and to class people who join the army as "hired killers" is disgusting.
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Old 22-11-2016, 09:34
timboy
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I think we know where you stand. Many soldiers in the two world wars were volunteers. Were they hired killers?

They all joined to do a job, and to class people who join the army as "hired killers" is disgusting.
What are they then?

They certainly aren't defending the UK when they are in Iraq or Afghanistan.

They are hired killers taking part in a political war for money and power. They are pawns being used by a government who doesn't care about them hence the lack of help to deal with homelessness and mental health issues when they leave the Armed Forces.

The Forces recruiting policy is equally abhorrent, they visited Govan High School, in a poor area of Glasgow, 14 times in a year hoping to get young children, many with a poor level of education, to sign up for their war machine.
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Old 22-11-2016, 10:18
Deep Purple
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What are they then?

They certainly aren't defending the UK when they are in Iraq or Afghanistan.

They are hired killers taking part in a political war for money and power. They are pawns being used by a government who doesn't care about them hence the lack of help to deal with homelessness and mental health issues when they leave the Armed Forces.

The Forces recruiting policy is equally abhorrent, they visited Govan High School, in a poor area of Glasgow, 14 times in a year hoping to get young children, many with a poor level of education, to sign up for their war machine.
Not worthy of discussion when such an attitude is shown. You would not be interested in reality.

How many people who join the Army unlawfully, or otherwise, kill someone?

Were all those volunteers in the World Wars "hired killers".
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Old 22-11-2016, 10:49
codeblue
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There is a vast difference between a conscripted soldier in ww2 and the paid soldiers in iraq2 and Afghanistan.

The former we're actually defending the uk from invasion, and in Iraq, well, as above they are hired mercenaries in a political war. Fighting for my freedom? Heroes? Absolute garbage.

Ww2 soldiers should have the maximum respect, and never be forgotten.
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Old 22-11-2016, 11:51
Deep Purple
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There is a vast difference between a conscripted soldier in ww2 and the paid soldiers in iraq2 and Afghanistan.

The former we're actually defending the uk from invasion, and in Iraq, well, as above they are hired mercenaries in a political war. Fighting for my freedom? Heroes? Absolute garbage.

Ww2 soldiers should have the maximum respect, and never be forgotten.
They were not all conscripted soldiers in the World Wars. Many were volunteers. Were they hired killers?
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Old 22-11-2016, 12:04
timboy
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Were all those volunteers in the World Wars "hired killers".
That is a complete strawman of an argument.

What information was available to people back then as opposed to the information available today?

You can't compare those times to these times as we are far better informed today through a plethora of new outlets that cover both sides of the story. That wasn't the same back then.

I'll tell you what though DP, that you deliberately ignore so many points that are made to you and you instead insult others fairly tells you about the strength of your argument.
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Old 22-11-2016, 12:28
Deep Purple
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That is a complete strawman of an argument.

What information was available to people back then as opposed to the information available today?

You can't compare those times to these times as we are far better informed today through a plethora of new outlets that cover both sides of the story. That wasn't the same back then.

I'll tell you what though DP, that you deliberately ignore so many points that are made to you and you instead insult others fairly tells you about the strength of your argument.
That's rich, when you wont answer the question. You claimed non conscript soldiers are hired killers. Many of those in the World Wars were volunteers, so come within the category you allege.

More knowledge nowadays is not an answer. Most people join the services for a career, not to kill people, and it is an insult to suggest that is what they join for.
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Old 22-11-2016, 13:37
codeblue
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More knowledge nowadays is not an answer. Most people join the services for a career, not to kill people, and it is an insult to suggest that is what they join for.
Ive heard it all now.

People join the armed services "not to kill people". Why do they carry a gun then (or feed people who carry guns, or maintain weapons to kill people etc etc).

Is it for show?

I'm sure they don't join just to kill people, its just a by-product of their actions. They "may" have to kill people. People they have no choice about. Or in an illegal war. They just point and pull the trigger. And get paid.

And of course, they never take on anyone in a fair fight.
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Old 22-11-2016, 14:16
Deep Purple
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Ive heard it all now.

People join the armed services "not to kill people". Why do they carry a gun then (or feed people who carry guns, or maintain weapons to kill people etc etc).

Is it for show?

I'm sure they don't join just to kill people, its just a by-product of their actions. They "may" have to kill people. People they have no choice about. Or in an illegal war. They just point and pull the trigger. And get paid.

And of course, they never take on anyone in a fair fight.
Pathetic wishy washy crap.
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Old 22-11-2016, 14:40
codeblue
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Pathetic wishy washy crap.
I guess the truth hurts doesn't it.

People who join the army join the army knowing that they will be killing people. Either directly, indirectly, or supporting people who do.

Sometimes in illegal political wars, and they get paid to do so.

That is the bottom line of the current armed forces in the UK. They are not fighting to protect my freedom, they are usually fighting to suit a particular political agenda. Or oil interests.
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Old 22-11-2016, 14:54
Deep Purple
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I guess the truth hurts doesn't it.

People who join the army join the army knowing that they will be killing people. Either directly, indirectly, or supporting people who do.

Sometimes in illegal political wars, and they get paid to do so.

That is the bottom line of the current armed forces in the UK. They are not fighting to protect my freedom, they are usually fighting to suit a particular political agenda. Or oil interests.
So you would abolish our armed forces presumably.

It's not your decision as to how they are deployed.
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Old 22-11-2016, 15:12
RichmondBlue
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I guess the truth hurts doesn't it.

People who join the army join the army knowing that they will be killing people. Either directly, indirectly, or supporting people who do.

Sometimes in illegal political wars, and they get paid to do so.

That is the bottom line of the current armed forces in the UK. They are not fighting to protect my freedom, they are usually fighting to suit a particular political agenda. Or oil interests.
I think you're taking a very simplistic view of war and the necessity to maintain our armed forces. Whilst most would agree with you about Iraq, not every war has to be in defence of the realm to be "justified".
Sometimes you intervene to stop genocide, such as in the Balkans or more recently Libya. Sometimes you just go to the aid of an ally or to restore some kind of equilibrium and prevent things escalating into something even more serious.

What would be your solution, have no standing army, navy or airforce ? As an old peace protester myself (I marched against the Vietnam war, but fortunately Harold Wilson kept us out of that one) it sounds great in principle. But in practice it would never work.

You're right about some of the scum bag, war-mongering politicians. But they'll always be with us in some shape or form. So will wars to protect and further big business interests, human greed is a fact of life. But that doesn't negate our need to maintain our armed forces, or make those who join up in good faith deserving of the term "mercenaries".

I think we're going way beyond the scope of a football thread, and I'm to blame as much as anyone. It's turning a bit nasty and I don't want to fall out with fellow football fans. If we want to continue along the current lines, maybe we should move to the politics forum ?
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Old 22-11-2016, 15:30
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I think you're taking a very simplistic view of war and the necessity to maintain our armed forces. Whilst most would agree with you about Iraq, not every war has to be in defence of the realm to be "justified".
Sometimes you intervene to stop genocide, such as in the Balkans or more recently Libya. Sometimes you just go to the aid of an ally or to restore some kind of equilibrium and prevent things escalating into something even more serious.

What would be your solution, have no standing army, navy or airforce ? As an old peace protester myself (I marched against the Vietnam war, but fortunately Harold Wilson kept us out of that one) it sounds great in principle. But in practice it would never work.

You're right about some of the scum bag, war-mongering politicians. But they'll always be with us in some shape or form. So will wars to protect and further big business interests, human greed is a fact of life. But that doesn't negate our need to maintain our armed forces, or make those who join up in good faith deserving of the term "mercenaries".

I think we're going way beyond the scope of a football thread, and I'm to blame as much as anyone. It's turning a bit nasty and I don't want to fall out with fellow football fans. If we want to continue along the current lines, maybe we should move to the politics forum ?
Many people accused Churchill being that, So yes that aspect has always been part of these sort of things even in wars that people have said are justified
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