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How would an actor of larger build fare as the Doctor?


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Old 16-11-2016, 12:17
Granny McSmith
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A female Doctor would create interest and publicity unheard of from Doctor Who, i wouldn't worry about it ruining the show.

And your first point, it really is the same, the key characteristics of The Doctor are the exact same, but the personality different. Like Matt Smith to Capaldi, or Hartnell to Troughton with completely different personas.
We'll have to agree to disagree. Men and women are fundamentally different. If they're not, what are transgendered people going on about?

I hope we never get to find out if it ruins the show or not. (I wouldn't ever find out because I would stop watching, merely because it wouldn't be my show any more, and would, imo, have been taken over by people who care more for making a name for themselves rather than perpetuating a long-running success story).
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Old 16-11-2016, 12:29
Sam_Gee1
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We'll have to agree to disagree. Men and women are fundamentally different. If they're not, what are transgendered people going on about?

I hope we never get to find out if it ruins the show or not. (I wouldn't ever find out because I would stop watching, merely because it wouldn't be my show any more, and would, imo, have been taken over by people who care more for making a name for themselves rather than perpetuating a long-running success story).
But it wouldn't change any of the stories though?? It is just a female lead instead of a male, the show itself won't change at all.
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Old 16-11-2016, 12:46
Granny McSmith
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But it wouldn't change any of the stories though?? It is just a female lead instead of a male, the show itself won't change at all.
If you just watch for a semi-sci-fi, light-fantasy story, and watch it for the ideas rather than the characters, I can see how the sex change would be just another (wow, brilliant) idea and the stories just the same story.

I'm involved with the characters, mainly the character of the Doctor. I watch, not just for the stories, but to see how he reacts to events. I've seen his different incarnations develop through the years. For me, a female Doctor would break the continuity. The suspension of disbelief would have gone. It would just be some writer's bright idea.
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Old 16-11-2016, 12:55
Sam_Gee1
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If you just watch for a semi-sci-fi, light-fantasy story, and watch it for the ideas rather than the characters, I can see how the sex change would be just another (wow, brilliant) idea and the stories just the same story.

I'm involved with the characters, mainly the character of the Doctor. I watch, not just for the stories, but to see how he reacts to events. I've seen his different incarnations develop through the years. For me, a female Doctor would break the continuity. The suspension of disbelief would have gone. It would just be some writer's bright idea.
Now you can see how she reacts to events, see how she develops and deals with this change. The principles of the show wouldn't change in the slightest that is why it isn't an issue.

This show every few years literally has The Doctor change every cell in his body and lead to a new character, you've been fine with this change. But if it is a female it would what ruin the suspension of disbelief?
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Old 16-11-2016, 13:32
Granny McSmith
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Now you can see how she reacts to events, see how she develops and deals with this change. The principles of the show wouldn't change in the slightest that is why it isn't an issue.

This show every few years literally has The Doctor change every cell in his body and lead to a new character, you've been fine with this change. But if it is a female it would what ruin the suspension of disbelief?
I've explained how I feel about it several times. If you don't get it, or get it but just want to prolong the argument for reasons of your own, then I'm afraid you'll have to find someone else to argue with, as I'm bored with repeating myself. Sorry.
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Old 16-11-2016, 13:32
Nelson_De_Souza
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If you just watch for a semi-sci-fi, light-fantasy story, and watch it for the ideas rather than the characters, I can see how the sex change would be just another (wow, brilliant) idea and the stories just the same story.

I'm involved with the characters, mainly the character of the Doctor. I watch, not just for the stories, but to see how he reacts to events. I've seen his different incarnations develop through the years. For me, a female Doctor would break the continuity. The suspension of disbelief would have gone. It would just be some writer's bright idea.
So am I, but him becoming female wouldn't stop me liking the show and watching it. Their reactions, whether male or female, would be a progression of what's gone before. I think you're just too hung up on the actual appearance of a female Doctor. It's the female look that would 'destroy' your image of the Doctor.

I just see the Doctor as a time-traveller (no gender involved) who works alongside people to save the day and have adventures. The gender never comes into it.

And, if you're on about breaking the continuity, well the Doctor's been 12 white men in a row, the obvious question of a different ethnicity Doctor (still male) then gets asked. Surely, in a way that breaks the 53-year-old continuity?

I don't think it does by the way, but going by your logic, something like that fits in just the same as the female tag.
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Old 16-11-2016, 13:38
Sam_Gee1
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I've explained how I feel about it several times. If you don't get it, or get it but just want to prolong the argument for reasons of your own, then I'm afraid you'll have to find someone else to argue with, as I'm bored with repeating myself. Sorry.
I genuinely don't get it as your only issue is with appearance which is odd about a show which involves regeneration.

But anyway we'll leave it there.
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Old 16-11-2016, 13:39
Granny McSmith
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So am I, but him becoming female wouldn't stop me liking the show and watching it. Their reactions, whether male or female, would be a progression of what's gone before. I think you're just too hung up on the actual appearance of a female Doctor. It's the female look that would 'destroy' your image of the Doctor.

"Too" hung up? Is there a limit as to how hung up I can acceptably be? Have I failed some PC test? (Good, if so).

Yes, being female would spoil my image of the Doctor. So what?

I just see the Doctor as a time-traveller (no gender involved) who works alongside people to save the day and have adventures. The gender never comes into it.

Good for you.

And, if you're on about breaking the continuity, well the Doctor's been 12 white men in a row, the obvious question of a different ethnicity Doctor (still male) then gets asked. Surely, in a way that breaks the 53-year-old continuity?

I don't think it does by the way, but going by your logic, something like that fits in just the same as the female tag

No it isn't.

.
.....
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Old 16-11-2016, 13:41
Granny McSmith
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I genuinely don't get it as your only issue is with appearance which is odd about a show which involves regeneration.

But anyway we'll leave it there.
Changing from male to female is only about appearance? Do you really think so?

Oh, well.....
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Old 16-11-2016, 13:45
Sam_Gee1
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Changing from male to female is only about appearance? Do you really think so?

Oh, well.....
All 12 doctors have different appearances and personalities as would a female doctor.
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Old 16-11-2016, 13:46
Nelson_De_Souza
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No need to be rude.
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Old 16-11-2016, 13:53
johnnysaucepn
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Boys need male heroes to want to grow up to be like. Girls need female heroes to want to grow up to be like.
And boys can't grow up to be like female heroes? Why, exactly? Because certain parts of their anatomy don't match? Please.

If your argument were true, then you should be even more in favour of a female Doctor. Because if you value the Doctor's values, and believe that boys can only identify with male heroes, and girls with females - then girls should utterly have a female Doctor to look up to.
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Old 16-11-2016, 17:27
Lord Smexy
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And you're both wrong.
No seriously, when somebody asks me what comes to mind when I think of the Doctor, his penis is one of the last things that crosses my mInd.
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Old 16-11-2016, 17:28
Lord Smexy
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And boys can't grow up to be like female heroes? Why, exactly? Because certain parts of their anatomy don't match? Please.

If your argument were true, then you should be even more in favour of a female Doctor. Because if you value the Doctor's values, and believe that boys can only identify with male heroes, and girls with females - then girls should utterly have a female Doctor to look up to.
I had loads of female heroes growing up. I don't feel ashamed by it and nor do I intend to.
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Old 16-11-2016, 22:01
doctor blue box
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Just to add my thoughts to this fascinating male/female character discussion, the way I see it is this-

I enjoyed the (sadly now cancelled) Agent Carter series, and that was mostly due to the title character Peggy Carter herself. Would it feel right to me if they did a remake in a few years where Peggy Carter was suddenly Peter Carter?. No. There would be no reason why they couldn't/shouldn't officially, but the character is every bit a strong female that wouldn't work for me as a man.

I enjoyed parks and recreation, the show led by strong female character Leslie Knope. Again, if they did a remake of this in a few years time, would it feel right to me if Leslie were now a played by a man? again no, for the same reasons.

I'd say the same of Jessica Jones, Daenerys Targaryen from game of thrones or if they decided or if someone somehow conceived a way to bring River back in who as a man.

My point is, I'm someone who doesn't think a female Doctor would work, but not because i'm against strong women in lead roles, but simply because the Doctor is a man, has always been a man, and as such the character has been developed with traits that are more suited to a male presence.

Some roles can be successfully gender swapped, but it depends how much the gender is vital to the character. To me, when I think of the type of scenes where the Doctor is acting the fool/going to far and having to have this strongly pointed out to him by the companion, thats the kind of thing that often happens with the Doctor and companion, and yet, I couldn't them doing that kind of thing with a woman in the role (could you imagine a male companion as bossy as Clara talking down to a female Doctor as much as Clara did? The show would probably be cancelled due to claims of rampant sexism).

That brings me to another point. A female Doctor would affect the companions. Having a female companion with a female Doctor would feel too unbalanced, so it would most likely be a male companion or a man and a woman, but there would likely always have to be a male in the mix somewhere. Now whereas the seem to go to pains (especially in the Moffat era) to show how strong and sassy female companions are, with a male companion to a female Doctor, they wouldn't want a male companion to show up, boss around, challenge or in any way show strength against a female Doctor.


To summarise, I feel a Female Doctor would be written with all the intelligence and accumulated knowledge of the character, but in the pursuit of proving how good a strong female Doctor is, the character would suddenly lose the flaws, and the 'bumbling old fool' persona that has been a big part of who he is in every incarnation. Meanwhile the companion would suddenly be a subservient male, following behind the Doctor saying 'yes Doctor, you're so clever Doctor' and probably that companion would have to be the bumbling idiot who had to be saved by the perfect female Doctor every 5 mins.

Basically It would change the entire tone of the show, everything the Doctor has ever been, and everything we've come to expect from the companion role also in my opinion.
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Old 16-11-2016, 22:11
Kill Jester
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I suppose if you buy into this new-age nonsense about gender being 'a social construct' or any similar fairy tales that have been gaining traction in recent years then you might not get it. Personally I think we should celebrate and enjoy the differences between men and women, accept they exist and accept they are a good thing. And this extends to fictional characters. I enjoy James Bond being James Bond. And part of this enjoyment comes from the fact he is played by a guy. And the Doctor is the same. You can talk all you like about how 'anything is possible' but that doesnt matter. While they have been different all 12/13 incarnations of the Doctor have some shared characteristics and the fact they are played by a man is one of them. And really think about how many tedious in-jokes we would be stuck with for at least the first season if they did it. It would be so smug and insufferable. People who call for things like a female Doctor often claim to be calling for equality but it is they who are hung up on gender. Plenty of girls and women have been inspired by the Doctor over the years. They didn't need to see themselves reflected back at them precisely. They fell in love with a great character. Let's just leave it be. Alas it will happen and I wouldn't be that surprised if it comes much sooner than anyone imagines.
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Old 16-11-2016, 22:14
doctor blue box
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I suppose if you buy into this new-age nonsense about gender being 'a social construct' or any similar fairy tales that have been gaining traction in recent years then you might not get it. Personally I think we should celebrate and enjoy the differences between men and women, accept they exist and accept they are a good thing. And this extends to fictional characters. I enjoy James Bond being James Bond. And part of this enjoyment comes from the fact he is played by a guy. And the Doctor is the same. You can talk all you like about how 'anything is possible' but that doesnt matter. While they have been different all 12/13 incarnations of the Doctor have some shared characteristics and the fact they are played by a man is one of them. And really think about how many tedious in-jokes we would be stuck with for at least the first season if they did it. It would be so smug and insufferable. People who call for things like a female Doctor often claim to be calling for equality but it is they who are hung up on gender. Plenty of girls and women have been inspired by the Doctor over the years. They didn't need to see themselves reflected back at them precisely. They fell in love with a great character. Let's just leave it be. Alas it will happen and I wouldn't be that surprised if it comes much sooner than anyone imagines.
Totally agree.
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Old 16-11-2016, 22:21
Ed Sizzers
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To summarise, I feel a Female Doctor would be written with all the intelligence and accumulated knowledge of the character, but in the pursuit of proving how good a strong female Doctor is, the character would suddenly lose the flaws, and the 'bumbling old fool' persona that has been a big part of who he is in every incarnation. Meanwhile the companion would be a subservient male, following behind the Doctor saying 'yes Doctor, you're so clever Doctor' and probably that companion would have to be the bumbling idiot who had to be saved by the perfect female Doctor every 5 mins.

Basically It would change the entire tone of the show, everything the Doctor has ever been, and everything we've come to expect from the companion role also in my opinion.
So like a lot of the people against the idea, you have a crystal ball detailing exactly what the show would be like if a woman was cast in the role? As far as I can see, your argument seems to be if the Doctor was female, she couldn't be a 'bumbling old fool' (a description that doesn't really fit half of the Doc's to date and even if it did, why couldn't she?) and the potentially male companion would need saving a lot. And you've come to these conclusions because....I honestly have no idea.

As i said earlier, a female Doctor could be good. Or they could be not-so-good. Just like another male Doctor might be. And even putting aside how subjective the whole good/bad thing is anyway (and has been for the last 50 years amongst fans), the criteria that might affect that outcome could be down to the acting talent of the person cast; or it could come down to the writing of individual episodes; or it could come down to the direction taken by the showrunner at the time.

But what it would have absolutely nothing to do with would be if the Doc was a bloke or a woman.
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Old 16-11-2016, 23:31
doctor blue box
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So like a lot of the people against the idea, you have a crystal ball detailing exactly what the show would be like if a woman was cast in the role? As far as I can see, your argument seems to be if the Doctor was female, she couldn't be a 'bumbling old fool' (a description that doesn't really fit half of the Doc's to date and even if it did, why couldn't she?) and the potentially male companion would need saving a lot. And you've come to these conclusions because....I honestly have no idea.

As i said earlier, a female Doctor could be good. Or they could be not-so-good. Just like another male Doctor might be. And even putting aside how subjective the whole good/bad thing is anyway (and has been for the last 50 years amongst fans), the criteria that might affect that outcome could be down to the acting talent of the person cast; or it could come down to the writing of individual episodes; or it could come down to the direction taken by the showrunner at the time.

But what it would have absolutely nothing to do with would be if the Doc was a bloke or a woman.
I haven't tried to predict the future at all, and in no way pretended to in my post. I simply stated my view, trying to make it clear that it was my opinion (which I would think would be obvious to anyone anyway) and rather than be one of those who says ' I don't want a female Doctor,just because' I tried to explain my reasoning for why. It's an opinion I stand by. I think we can say for fact that a theoretical first female Doctor would be headline news way more so than if they cast another man. I think we can also say for fact that they would do everything possible to make sure that the casting of that woman wasn't a cheap stunt to boost interest. The rest of my post was just my feelings on how I think it could affect the writing.

Notice that my post that I just gave my reasons for my view. I didn't try to attack those who support a female Doctor, so I have no idea why those who support the idea such as yourself feel the need to shout down those who don't agree with the idea. At any rate, it won't change how I feel.

Also, you seem to certain with your bolded statement that a woman in the role would have nothing to do with the writing at the time, but the only way I could see that happening is if they hired a terrible writer. Any writer worth their money would be writing for the actor they know would be coming into the role, and everything about that person would affect the writing, including their gender.
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Old 16-11-2016, 23:48
Sam_Gee1
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I haven't tried to predict the future at all, and in no way pretended to in my post. I simply stated my view, trying to make it clear that it was my opinion (which I would think would be obvious to anyone anyway) and rather than be one of those who says ' I don't want a female Doctor,just because' I tried to explain my reasoning for why. It's an opinion I stand by. I think we can say for fact that a theoretical first female Doctor would be headline news way more so than if they cast another man. I think we can also say for fact that they would do everything possible to make sure that the casting of that woman wasn't a cheap stunt to boost interest. The rest of my post was just my feelings on how I think it could affect the writing.

Notice that my post that I just gave my reasons for my view. I didn't try to attack those who support a female Doctor, so I have no idea why those who support the idea such as yourself feel the need to shout down those who don't agree with the idea. At any rate, it won't change how I feel.

Also, you seem to certain with your bolded statement that a woman in the role would have nothing to do with the writing at the time, but the only way I could see that happening is if they hired a terrible writer. Any writer worth their money would be writing for the actor they know would be coming into the role, and everything about that person would affect the writing, including their gender.
That is correct, but that also means you expect the writing of the show to be worse because of a female lead and i don't see that as the case at all.
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Old 17-11-2016, 00:39
johnnysaucepn
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I suppose if you buy into this new-age nonsense about gender being 'a social construct' or any similar fairy tales that have been gaining traction in recent years then you might not get it.
It's not new age, it's a) cold hard science, and b) actually studying people and not confining yourself to your own box of presumptions.
Personally I think we should celebrate and enjoy the differences between men and women, accept they exist and accept they are a good thing.
There are as many differences between men and other men as there are between women and men. There is no character trait that is uniquely male or uniquely female - no matter how uncomfortable it may be, the world is not binary, it's a probability distribution. Celebrating what you perceive the 'typical' female to be is a disservice to the 99% of women who don't fit into that narrow band.
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Old 17-11-2016, 01:49
Baz_James
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To summarise, I feel a Female Doctor would be written with all the intelligence and accumulated knowledge of the character, but in the pursuit of proving how good a strong female Doctor is, the character would suddenly lose the flaws, and the 'bumbling old fool' persona that has been a big part of who he is in every incarnation. Meanwhile the companion would suddenly be a subservient male, following behind the Doctor saying 'yes Doctor, you're so clever Doctor' and probably that companion would have to be the bumbling idiot who had to be saved by the perfect female Doctor every 5 mins.
.
What a load of fetid dingo's kidneys! What bumbling old fool persona? Even the few actual old fools in the history have never been bumbling! And there's no logic at all to your claims that a female would have to lose all the quirks to prove something. Indeed the Master's transformation into Missy introduced a whole gamut of new delights to the character variations available to Time Lords! If this was 1963 and nobody had ever seen a female lead, you might have a point but there's nothing in the least unusual about them now. And again, why would the companion have to be male at all, or a wimp if he was? Who even writes stuff like that these days (apart from for adverts)? It is beyond perverse that you even think like this let alone offering it as a legitimate argument!
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Old 17-11-2016, 02:06
Sam_Gee1
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To summarise, I feel a Female Doctor would be written with all the intelligence and accumulated knowledge of the character, but in the pursuit of proving how good a strong female Doctor is, the character would suddenly lose the flaws, and the 'bumbling old fool' persona that has been a big part of who he is in every incarnation. Meanwhile the companion would suddenly be a subservient male, following behind the Doctor saying 'yes Doctor, you're so clever Doctor' and probably that companion would have to be the bumbling idiot who had to be saved by the perfect female Doctor every 5 mins.

Basically It would change the entire tone of the show, everything the Doctor has ever been, and everything we've come to expect from the companion role also in my opinion.
So a female Doctor is incapable of playing a bumbling fool which i might add half The Doctor's haven't done. Then lets hypothetically say we have a male companion, in the past we have had previous male companions saying "yes doctor you're so clever."

Rory was also a bumbling idiot you so accurately describe too. All i get from that comment is you can't handle a man to be the one in a lesser role and kissing ass to a female Doctor. Even though they already have done that, but towards a male Doctor.
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Old 17-11-2016, 07:04
Theophile
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Now you can see how she reacts to events, see how she develops and deals with this change. The principles of the show wouldn't change in the slightest that is why it isn't an issue.

This show every few years literally has The Doctor change every cell in his body and lead to a new character, you've been fine with this change. But if it is a female it would what ruin the suspension of disbelief?
Because The Doctor is male. It would be like making Santa Claus female (not Mrs. Claus, but making Santa himself female). My brain would say "that's not Santa; Santa is male" and it would break the fourth wall for me. After watching Doctor Who for 36 years, there is no way that the character could ever be female for me. It wouldn't be The Doctor, just a parody of The Doctor (like the only time that it has ever happened before, in a parody sketch).

Did you watch Star Wars Episode I, look at Anakin and think to yourself "This is truly Darth Vader!"? Probably not. Did you look at Jar-Jar Binks and think to yourself "This is a good replacement for Chewbacca!"? Probably not. If you were like most people, you were thinking "What kind of fan fiction crap is this?". That is how I would feel about a female Doctor; it would ruin the character for me much in the same way that George Lucas ruined Star Wars for so many of us with Episode I.
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Old 17-11-2016, 07:07
Theophile
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So am I, but him becoming female wouldn't stop me liking the show and watching it. Their reactions, whether male or female, would be a progression of what's gone before. I think you're just too hung up on the actual appearance of a female Doctor. It's the female look that would 'destroy' your image of the Doctor.

I just see the Doctor as a time-traveller (no gender involved) who works alongside people to save the day and have adventures. The gender never comes into it.

And, if you're on about breaking the continuity, well the Doctor's been 12 white men in a row, the obvious question of a different ethnicity Doctor (still male) then gets asked. Surely, in a way that breaks the 53-year-old continuity?

I don't think it does by the way, but going by your logic, something like that fits in just the same as the female tag.
Skin color does not change us, but men and women are different; we are wired differently, our brains work differently and we are physiologically different. Like Granny said, if men and women are exactly the same, then why are so many men trying to become women? Is it because we are the same? No, it is because they feel different, as if they are not a man but a woman. If there is no difference, then how in the world do they know any difference? How could there be any difference? There could not.
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