Firstly let me apologise in advance for the moaning l'm going to do today as this is one of possibly 3 threads that l'm probably going to start today!

Now, l love salsa dancing but have rarely enjoyed the ones performed on strictly. This is because in my opinion they treat the salsa basic steps as a inconvenience to the dance. They are generally loaded with lots of gyrating (sometimes samba steps), pfaffing about and lifts with a few obligatory basic steps thrown in to use as a defence when Len and Craig start hammering them!

I have watched a lot of salsa over the years and to my untrained eye they can usually be divided into two categories, club salsa and competition / showdance salsas. One tends to be very hot and intimate, the other full of fast steps, lifts and wow factor. However, the constant is always the salsa basic that runs through them linking isolations, armography, lifts and anything else they choose to throw at it.

Ore's salsa was probably one of the worst l've seen due to the lack of basic steps, smooth hip action and transitions. His steps were generally too large and his motion too sticky. His partners steps were equally bad.

So why is that pros take the time to learn the Charleston and the Argentine Tango but not the correct motion for the salsa?

Search me Hun. I have been banging that drum for years. But don't be deceived into thinking they bother getting the AT right because they don't. I don't dance Charleston and know nothing about it, but the auspicies don't look good for that either

Agree totally! The Strictly salsa is so far removed from the salsa that they might as well call it something else entirely.
There have only been a handful of salsas over the years that bore any resemblance to the dance.

frankly both the AT and salsa are add ons the pros are trained in the standard 10 dances and most dont do other styles - both have choreographers who come in but don't think the show is looking for authentic. Jo and Ore's salsa for instance was done bu John Platero who is a salsa champion having seen him dance it was nothing like the guff he did for Jo and Ore

I would rather salsa was taken from the show - it is not different enough from samba and just is not needed imo

I've never seen a decent salsa on SCD either, and for me salsa is Cuban or Cali, or maybe Puerto Rican style - but not the utter rubbish they do on SCD.

But it's not a ballroom dance and,although it's a lot easier than AT to master, it seems no one really cares on SCD. They always go for the hideous bad Cross Body guff - but still don't teach any basic salsa steps.

On SCD a salsa 'step' is just one back step and an awful lot of knicker flashing turns, with a bit of samba thrown in. Some of us refer to it as a salsarumbacha because it's actually just a horrid mismash.

I think they should stop wrecking it and admit defeat, or laziness - or both!

As a total non-dancer, this is really interesting. Do you think it's because it's too difficult even for the celebs that have dance training, or would someone like Danny or Louise be able to learn a reasonable beginner routine with the sort of 'feel' you're talking about even if it wouldn't obviously be the real thing of a experienced dancer?

Is it the Chinese Whispers effect? Some salsa expert (in this case Mr Oksana) choreographs x% of the dance and then the pro tweaks away at it so that a) they can make sense of it and then b) so that their celeb can do it.
Does it actually start off a respectable salsa and then just get diluted in the process of getting it to work in 4 days?

The salsa on Strictly is actually a weird salsa/showdance hybrid. I've never seen any real salsa dancers doing 3 lifts in one and a half minutes!

To be honest l'm not convinced there is anything that difficult in the salsa basic that any celebrity regardless of their level couldn't learn. If you've ever done a zumba class or watched a zumba video they break down the basic salsa steps and movements that make it accessible to most. For a celeb who is having one to one tutoring that should be a no brainer to get the technique correct. I feel that some of the pros are just dismissive of learning anything outside their comfort zone sometimes or are just possible more excited by the prospect of lifts - something they wouldn't generally do in traditional Latin and Ballroom.

Personally I wish they would stop using the Salsa and Samba. The technique is just too unnatural/difficult for 95% of contestants. The music is always sleazy too. Replace it with the lindy hop or something!

John Barnes and Nicole Cutler did the best salsa I've seen on Strictly - still show dancey but right feel and rough around the edges

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoHaSQWAs38

that is def my fave salsa on strictly

They can't ditch the samba because it's a ten dance which is what the program is based on but I don't think many would miss the salsa much now. It's become a samba with arms and lifts.

If they did actual salsa it would be amazing. It's not a hard dance to get basics of, the basic step, which forms much more the core of the dance than in some of the ballroom dances, is easy to pick up (or it should be with one on one from a pro!).

The lifts meh I think producers etc want that 'wow' factor for telly and that overshadows the actual dancing part. I'd love to know what the experts they get in to coreograph the 'salsa' think, I mean they must know it's not really salsa-y?

Salsa certainly isn't hard to master. For someone with a reasonable aptitude for dance or who dances something else I would say 3 hours tuition is enough to get them up and running with the basics - mambo basic, cuban basic,cucarachas, cross body lead or dile que no and a simple underarm turn. Some of the more complex figures such as setenta and sombrero (what SCD likes to call armography *bites hard on fist* ) do take some coordination though.

So I have no idea what the problem is.

Joyous isn't it? Plus it looks real. I don't just mean has authentic steps etc etc but that it looks like John just spied Nicole standing at the edge of the dance floor, invited her to dance and they played spontaneuosly for a minute and a half.

I think the probem is that the producers do not want that and want a showdance type dance with lifts such a shame because what they are doing is nonsense and from a few pros on the show know they do not like it either

I believe a lot of those lifts are part of a con job into conning the viewers the dance is better then it actually is . The same with all those standing ovations .
We know they have the audience trained like seals to whoop and cheer every lift so the viewers will think they're doing something good .

The producers got it into their heads long ago that what we, the great unwashed, really like is lifts. Lots and lots of lifts. More lifts than an Otis engineer's weekly call out sheet.

But they had a problem. The 10 dances don't allow lifts, and they couldn't suddenly start throwing them in and depriving us all of the sheer pleasure of seeing Len and Brendan arguing over an illegal lift, because we all know how fresh and fun that is. So they gradually introduced more and more non-10 dances whose raison d'être is to be a vehicle for lifts. Obviously, this being Strictly, they had to give them all a one-note characterisation so those of us who haven't danced since we got off with Billy Higgins at the sixth form disco can look out for "old school Hollywood glamour" (AS), "armography" (salsa), "swivel" (Charleston) and "sweaty pampers" - or it might have been "lampposts", I get confused - (AT) and pat ourselves on the back for our dance expertise when we spot the lack of it.

Meanwhile, those who actually know how these dances originated and should be danced weep bitterly at the travesty of seeing them reduced to flash-bang-wallop show-us-yer-knickers* liftactulars. The producers encourage this with ever bigger and bolder lifts, urging the pros on to ever greater excesses of life and limb risking, death defying, table bothering lifts and swoops. It's only bathing in the aforementioned tears of true salsa and AT experts that keeps them young enough to find songs for AJ and Claudia to dance to.

*Don't be confused by the sight of Joanne's knickers. It doesn't mean lifts are involved, she could flash hers in a foxtrot.

Here's a proper salsa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzXSzahN26Y

It's a pity SYTYCD lasted only 2 series, as it was great to see proper dancers being put through their paces. Some very memorable routines (many, but by no means all, of which are still available on Youtube).

Said while the celebrity partner is in the air they can't do wrong if I recall correct, it was in defense of lifts

Great show. We got some proper dancing on that; none of your Anne Widdicomes or Ed Balls nonsense.

Why are salsa basic steps treated as an inconvenience?

Probably for the same reason as basic rumba steps; basic jive steps; in fact basic steps from nearly all the main dances are treated as an inconvenience. While they are simple to learn, they are very difficult to learn to do properly so that they actually look great, so it is easier to dress a routine up with lots of tricks and "faffing abaht" as one judge would say!

If you watched a beginner couple dance a very basic rumba (for example) it would look staid and totally boring; however, if you then watched a professional couple dance the exact same routine and it would be WOW!

What the celebs learn are simply routines based on the various dances; in such a short time it is impossible for them to learn any of the dances properly.

SYTYCD is probably my favourite ever dance show on tv, but unfortunately I have to say, I mean the USA version. The UK was OK'ish, but nothing by comparison.

Same here. I loved it. Miss it so much. Agree that the UK one was not half as good.

USA breeds great dancers and choreographers. Dancers really graft over there. They work hard and they are truly focused.