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DW under Chibnall could see a return to the Tennant style & format |
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#26 |
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Just bring back Tennant, there's your answer. Achieving both goals of 'something new' - regenerating into a previous incarnation - whilst simultaneously returning to the previous format.
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#27 |
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Hmm, interesting. Well firstly I think a lot of the article is their spin on the story, as you can see some of the statements in the article are not in quotation comment form but are just the seemingly the article writers opinions. Secondly, of course we have no idea even if there is any truth to the apparent quotes from a mysterious source. If there were any truth to the article though I'd agree with those sort of changes mostly but not completely. Tennant era writing style? yes please More accessible and less muddled arcs? absolutely BUT Dashing lead and younger companion? - on this point I would think and hope that this wouldn't be the basis for which they would be looking for two new lead actors. The 10th Doctor was popular for so many reasons. Take away the fact that he had a bit of romance in his time and his aesthetic appeal, and there are still so many reasons why he nailed the role. His perfect timing, his seemingly genuine warmth in the role, his ability to change from silly to deadly serious in a flash, his face of a thousand emotions. Practically every reason I loved Tennant in the role was due to his acting ability (and RTD's showrunning ability of course), which is why I would hate if they were to suddenly cast a young and handsome actor just on the basis of them being young and handsome, without putting acting ability first. Again with the companion, despite casual perception, it's all about the writing and acting rather than looks or age. Jenna Coleman is very easy on the eye but I hated the character of Clara, yet series 4, with the oldest permanent new who companion to date is one of the most popular series with one of the most popular doctor/companion pairings. I don't think there's any worry though as I very much doubt Chibnall would be casting by putting looks first, which seems more the opinion of the article writer. The main gist of all this is of all this seems to be 'the bbc wants to get back to the popularity of the Tennant years' which I'd guess is true, because lets face it, why wouldn't they? Quote:
When did we stop having a young female companion?
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For that matter, when did we stop having a dashing male lead? I hope I look like Capaldi when I'm coming up to 60.
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Sad news though if they do start going for looks over character and it would certainly make my interest in the future of the show plummet.
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It would be a shame to go back to that when they tried to break the mould by casting someone older, something I never thought we'd see in the revival. There was a time when people wanted a Doctor who could be your oddball grandfather or uncle rather than your boyfriend.
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#28 |
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I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but after 2 series of Capaldi, I've decided he hasn't got the charisma to play the Doctor.
Then he's been burdened with the personality-lite Clara, and some really dreary stories with absolutely no sparkle at all. Just because he's a good actor doesn't make it good casting. And Clara was like a random stranger standing at a bus stop to me. I never cared about her in any way, so I found all that 'impossible girl' stuff boring and distracting. Watching her was like watching magnolia paint dry. Even casual viewers pick up on and retain various things from the show over time. Most people are aware of the Time War and Sarah Jane Smith. I suspect in years to come, none of the 'Impossible Girl' stuff will be remembered by viewers or respected by future writers. Even the explanation for the Doctor leaving Gallifrey and Daleks having mercy and how they mindlessly translate whatever the creature inside says into 'exterminate' will be forgotten. That episode undid everything "Dalek" achieved, in turning Daleks into glorified robots. |
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#29 |
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It's a badly written article but it's absolutely true though.
I like Capaldi's Doctor but even I don't think he's connected with a wider audience and there's been the elements of the writing for his Doctor, Clara outstaying her welcome, the darker tone, erratic timeslot and half arsed promotion that has negatively affected the series. It makes sense to reboot things. To have Chibnall start his era with a new Doctor (it'll be a 30 something male), probably a new companion as well and maybe a more accessible tone as well. That along with the writers room approach that's been rumoured for yonks, it might also help the show deliver a new series each spring as well. It's been all over the place the last couple of years in terms of scheduling. It needs stability and so do we as audiences as well. |
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#30 |
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Im ecstatic if this is true, it'll be nice seeing the actiony saturday night orientated stories make a comeback. Tbh this current era In my opinion is kinda depressing. Probably why I find myself watching Series 1-6 repeats more so than 7-9.
Just how I feel, but lets get 2017 over and done with first. As for The Doctor, I dont care how old they are, but I don't want them to cast someone old just to make a point about looks, They should just cast whos right, young or old, and who can keep an audience entertained and hooked like Eccleston, Tennant and Smith. Obviously looks do matter to a certain degree, i'll be lying if I said it didn't, its the first initial form of Physical Attraction, but it shouldn't overshadow the show |
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#31 |
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When a show fundamentally about change decides to look backwards to go forwards you're tempting a whole world of problems.
This is the show that opted to cast Patrick Troughton rather than a William Hartnell lookalike. It's the show that found its second wind despite Christopher Eccleston leaving after a single year. It's the show that boldly went for a new tone and lead cast in its fifth series despite the immense success of the fourth. It's outlived famous shows like The X Files and Buffy in its revival years alone, and has continually built upon its success - national hype and mainstream recognition during the Tennant years, global simulcasts and international acclaim during the Smith years, sell-out world tours and symphonic shows during the Capaldi years. It does this because it changes, it tries new things, it explores new formats. There's a lot to be said for the trinity of a good Doctor, good companion, and a good writer. No matter how good one might be, they work best in combination with the others. Lack one of the three and the show will get by, lack two of the three and there'll be problems. Lack all three and the show won't last very long. Trying to emulate the show as it was eight years ago (because lets face it, nobody is looking to emulate the Specials, and it's easily forgotten how divisive RTD's era was at the end) isn't going to solve anything. It could make things very bad for the show, even. Tennant's time on the show depended hugely on that trinity - solid writing and personable companions were crucial to making a rather egotistical and human Doctor likeable. That solid writing floundered a bit and the companions were lacking in Tennant's final year and it showed. He didn't manage to make poor stories any better by himself (whereas I personally think Capaldi improves some of the weakest episodes...a Doctor stronger than the writer in this case). Trying to emulate that success will demand more than just going for the 'dashing hero/young companion' aesthetic, which also seems to completely forget Tennant's most successful year was with Catherine Tate - the only time the companion actress has been older than the Doctor actor. Chris Chibnall is a safe and uninspired choice as it is, and without taking my word or opinion for it you could tell how utterly divisive his appointment was. The writers room change is a welcome breath of fresh air, but there's little point if their objective will be to unbottle air from nearly a decade ago. On that note, I would also shoehorn in my personal enthusiasm for Pearl Mackie. In a matter of months we'll have our first new companion since 2012. I think she fits the 'young attractive companion' mould as much as those before her - she's all of those things as far as I'm concerned, and yet enough of a breath of fresh air to keep me interested. And she doesn't need to try and be like anyone from six, or seven, or eight years ago to pique that interest. Here's to asBill! |
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#32 |
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The part of this story which I really didn't like was the sense that Capaldi will not be given the option to carry on beyond next year, and that his departure (which otherwise could be explained as having done roughly the same number of years/series as his two immediate predecessors) will be because he is deemed by the BBC to have "failed".
As it happens, I would prefer a fresh start in 2018 and a more fun-based approach. Series 9 was not only notable for gloom about the characters, but for heavily unsubtle political sloganeering too. Light adventures with a charismatic Doctor are exactly what I would like to see. But Mr Capaldi deserved better treatment from the BBC along the way, if (and of course it is if) this story did in fact come from a BBC source. |
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#33 |
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Quote:
The part of this story which I really didn't like was the sense that Capaldi will not be given the option to carry on beyond next year, and that his departure (which otherwise could be explained as having done roughly the same number of years/series as his two immediate predecessors) will be because he is deemed by the BBC to have "failed".
It's like when you find out someone you really like at work is leaving... compared to someone you simply don't. |
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#34 |
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When a show fundamentally about change decides to look backwards to go forwards you're tempting a whole world of problems.
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#35 |
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I've said it before, I don't want Chibnall to imitate the RTD era or the Moffat era, I want the show to move on. They've both had their time now and to try and replicate either would indeed be a step backwards (or no step at all); a new era means a new style. Let's see a Doctor Who more notable for the suspense that Chibnall is so good at.
I think there's potential here right now to keep the wheels of reinvention turning for a few consecutive years... change the showrunner after one more series, maybe change the companion after two, and the Doctor after two or three. There'll be a constant stream of new things to look forward to each year, where Chibnall can develop his own style over time - less abrupt than the Series 5 tonal change, but likely more a change than the jump-on points that Series 8 and Series 10 have somewhat been designed to be. I can't say that I'm a massive Chibnall fan at all - of his Doctor Who episodes I like one out of five (I'm relatively easily pleased, so that is pretty much amongst the worst track records for any writer for the show). A couple of his Torchwood episodes are good (I'll admit Adrift is one of my favourites) but then he also delivered the weakest ones too - and made a few premises with potential really dull. And I really didn't like Broadchurch either. All that said I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and he could deliver (Moffat proved that writing and showrunning Doctor Who are very different jobs), but I'll be more cautious and a bit sadder if I'm presented with a Chibnall-led, Capaldi-free series where I have to immediately get on board with a new Doctor too and just blindly hope that Chibnall develops a new style that is decent. |
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#36 |
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Looks like a speculative hack job that anybody could've pieced together, really. At least let Chibbers actually get his feet under the table before saying what "the BBC" are telling him what to do, Mr Inside Source!
FWIW, I predict a lighter tone for Series 10 and I hope that Peter C and Pearl are developing a good Doctor/Companion bond. I can see them as mentor/friend. Still suspect we'll be seeing a regeneration end of 2017. Pure speculation of course. See, anyone can do it! Wonder if anyone had the paper on set: "Hey, Pearl! Enjoy it while you can, Grandma!!" (Ridiculous part of the 'article', that. Pearl's 29 and v probably playing a number of years younger, for Gawd's sake. And am with others above regarding the point about Donna's age...my favourite Who companion.) |
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#37 |
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I agree with that entirely. Series 9 was largely reflective and nostalgic, and I enjoyed that. But I wouldn't want it again anytime soon. I am more than happy to see Moffat go now, whilst praising his work, purely because I think the show needs new vision again - I won't hold it against him that he's doing Series 10, given the BBC appointed someone who couldn't deliver a series until late 2017 at the earliest (and wasn't likely to get it out until 2018 given the desire to shift the show out of the misjudged autumn slot).
I think there's potential here right now to keep the wheels of reinvention turning for a few consecutive years... change the showrunner after one more series, maybe change the companion after two, and the Doctor after two or three. There'll be a constant stream of new things to look forward to each year, where Chibnall can develop his own style over time - less abrupt than the Series 5 tonal change, but likely more a change than the jump-on points that Series 8 and Series 10 have somewhat been designed to be. I can't say that I'm a massive Chibnall fan at all - of his Doctor Who episodes I like one out of five (I'm relatively easily pleased, so that is pretty much amongst the worst track records for any writer for the show). A couple of his Torchwood episodes are good (I'll admit Adrift is one of my favourites) but then he also delivered the weakest ones too - and made a few premises with potential really dull. And I really didn't like Broadchurch either. All that said I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and he could deliver (Moffat proved that writing and showrunning Doctor Who are very different jobs), but I'll be more cautious and a bit sadder if I'm presented with a Chibnall-led, Capaldi-free series where I have to immediately get on board with a new Doctor too and just blindly hope that Chibnall develops a new style that is decent. A Capaldi-free, Chibnall-led Series 11 is a worrying prospect to me. If Capaldi is in, then I know I have something to look forward to, but while I'm willing to give Chibnall a chance I'm not confident he can prove himself while also trying to establish a brand new Doctor rather than someone I know I'm comfortable with. |
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#38 |
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As a parent who spent Christmases and birthdays putting 'Doctor Who DVD box set/Figure/toys' automatically on the pressie list, the problem for the past couple of years has been the availability and quality of the merchandising. The figures changed size, so you couldn't have them as a set with the other figures you bought previously. That's annoying for parents, as you would have to buy the whole set again.
My sons interest waned slightly as he was obsessed with Matt Smith, so whoever took over wouldn't be as good in his eyes, so he wasn't that bothered. I didnt bother to buy more figures for him. You can buy bigger Batman/Spiderman etc figure which look more impressive. The kids magazine was dropped from weekly to two weekly to monthly, so he'd forget to ask for it from one month to another, when he used to ask for it every week. I don't know if these things are a symptom of the dwindling interest or if they have contributed to the loss of momentum. That, added to the lack of episodes this year has meant that in our house at least, Doctor Who has kind of dropped off our radar. If this is repeated in a lot of houses in the run up to the Christmas period, that could then be used as a stick to beat the show with, which will be a shame. I'm sure we'll still be watching Christmas and the new series, but all the other Who related stuff we used to do has gone by the wayside
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#39 |
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I think that was part of what kept interest on Doctor Who when RTD was running things: each year there was a new lead on board. On the one hand, it gives a feeling of a lack of stability, but on the other it meant someone new to look forward to each year.
A Capaldi-free, Chibnall-led Series 11 is a worrying prospect to me. If Capaldi is in, then I know I have something to look forward to, but while I'm willing to give Chibnall a chance I'm not confident he can prove himself while also trying to establish a brand new Doctor rather than someone I know I'm comfortable with. I think it's important to let Chibnall find his feet. I enjoyed Series 5 in many ways, but it also left me feeling cold - it still does. I don't care about the characters as much as it wants me to. There was such a need to establish tone and style that it simply lacked on the character front for me. By no small coincidence that then sorts itself out, and I found myself quite liking the end of Series 5, absolutely loving A Christmas Carol, and whilst Series 6 was too ambitious for its own good I cared about the characters a whole lot more so that I could appreciate emotive stories like The Girl Who Waited come the end of it. It worked in some ways and not in others, and I think the first step towards making it better is not burying Chibnall under the pressure of new Doctor, new companion, new style and tone all at the same time. It's also likely important to consider that whilst Series 5 managed it with issues, there's no guarantee of emulating that success again. |
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#40 |
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I don't know if these things are a symptom of the dwindling interest or if they have contributed to the loss of momentum.
Does anyone in your children's schools 'play' Doctor Who anymore (not including any weirdo teachers)? Is it now uncool for the kids to wander around saying "Exterminate! Exterminate!"? Quote:
Doctor Who has kind of dropped off our radar. If this is repeated in a lot of houses in the run up to the Christmas period, that could then be used as a stick to beat the show with
Frankly, I think the best thing for the show would have been to leave it rest until Chibnall was ready. That would have been a healthy gap for people to forget all about Capaldi's tenure. I think this Christmas special and the next series will do more harm than good, leaving the show in a weaker position for Chibnall to reboot from. |
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#41 |
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Does anyone in your children's schools 'play' Doctor Who anymore (not including any weirdo teachers)? Is it now uncool for the kids to wander around saying "Exterminate! Exterminate!"?
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#42 |
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Exactly, if anything should be emulated from the RTD-era then it's purely the behind-the-scenes stuff. It's going to partly just be down to how and when people opted to leave, but there was a uniformity and tidiness to those first four series in spite of the fact that not one of them had the same leading cast. Tennant replaces Eccleston for Series 2, but it's okay because we still have Piper for continuity. Agyeman replaces Piper for Series 3, but it's okay because we still have Tennant for continuity. Tate replaces Agyeman for Series 4, with Tennant again acting as continuity. It's something of a safeguard... there's something new and something familiar to each series, and that makes it work on a generic level.
I think it's important to let Chibnall find his feet. I enjoyed Series 5 in many ways, but it also left me feeling cold - it still does. I don't care about the characters as much as it wants me to. There was such a need to establish tone and style that it simply lacked on the character front for me. By no small coincidence that then sorts itself out, and I found myself quite liking the end of Series 5, absolutely loving A Christmas Carol, and whilst Series 6 was too ambitious for its own good I cared about the characters a whole lot more so that I could appreciate emotive stories like The Girl Who Waited come the end of it. It worked in some ways and not in others, and I think the first step towards making it better is not burying Chibnall under the pressure of new Doctor, new companion, new style and tone all at the same time. It's also likely important to consider that whilst Series 5 managed it with issues, there's no guarantee of emulating that success again. |
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#43 |
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One thing that tends to get overlooked is that people who love a series actually don't like change and too much change really does switch off an audience. If an audience is already disengaged, changing everything doesn't make them think 'ooh, I'll have a look': you've already destroyed the brand loyalty and generally it's only a restitution of the original that will make the disaffected return. The only option is then to look for a completely different audience. Think 'all new Coca Cola': either you return to the old to keep your existing customer, or you ditch it for something completely new and hope for the best. Where the article does ring most true is in the marketing principle that you need to restore the original brand to bring back the original customer and persuade that customer that it's worth coming back to what you originally loved.
Clara as a character was just tiresome and, to be honest, all of Moffat's female characters are and were token 'strong, sassy women' who were nothing of the sort. I felt they were all completely interchangeable. I'd prefer that the new companion was anything other than a smart, sassy, argumentative, assertive, action-oriented... zzzzzz..... and provide some much needed light and shade in the stories. However, I am one of those who returned to Doctor Who once Matt Smith had gone - there are some of us and it would wrong to assume that traffic has all been in one direction. I spent all of his last episode wanting the Daleks to come down and get it over with. We didn't all universally love him any more than there is universal dislike for Peter Capaldi. But I do think that the last couple of series has been far too much dependent on lore and overturning the premise established since its return with RTD, coupled with an incessant need to try and fool the audience with clever tricks, rather than just tell a flipping good story. |
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#44 |
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Does anyone in your children's schools 'play' Doctor Who anymore?
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#45 |
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Interesting points. Didn't have the same reaction re: the 'changeover' as Series 4 and Series 5 are 2 of my favourite C21 series, but it's true that it's very rare that there isn't some sort of continuity between eras. Season 7 (yeah, UNIT/Brig had appeared a couple of times, but...) Series 5, ummm; that's it, isn't it, if we're talking Doctors/Companions. Series 1 technically, but there had been a *little* bit of a hiatus!
If Capaldi is up for staying for longer, I'd give it to him! I get that Clara is divisive as a companion goes (I think she's brilliant) but many seem to say they like Capaldi's Doctor away from Clara. In the same way that it felt Eleven and Clara were sorely given little time together, I feel Twelve and Bill could feel similarly shortchanged if Capaldi leaves sooner. I really hope that he sticks around. I guess my ideal outcome would be Twelve and Bill for Series 10 under Moffat, Twelve, Bill and a newbie companion for Series 11 under Chibnall (he likes character exchanges, lets have three leads again.. have a "young dashing heroic" male companion, even better if Bill is gay and it cuts out the romantic notions people may otherwise have!). Capaldi and Mackie could then leave together at the end of Series 11, give Chibnall the chance to deliver some of that amazing dialogue I'm told he's capable of, and newbie is our continuity into Series 12. Three series, each with a different set of characters, a gradual change of tone - more an evolution than abrupt changes or indeed just stading still. Also giving Chibnall the chance to map out his vision without piling the pressure on, or making the show feel like it's actually being devised by a table of executives. |
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#46 |
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Exactly, if anything should be emulated from the RTD-era then it's purely the behind-the-scenes stuff. It's going to partly just be down to how and when people opted to leave, but there was a uniformity and tidiness to those first four series in spite of the fact that not one of them had the same leading cast. Tennant replaces Eccleston for Series 2, but it's okay because we still have Piper for continuity. Agyeman replaces Piper for Series 3, but it's okay because we still have Tennant for continuity. Tate replaces Agyeman for Series 4, with Tennant again acting as continuity. It's something of a safeguard... there's something new and something familiar to each series, and that makes it work on a generic level.
I think it's important to let Chibnall find his feet. I enjoyed Series 5 in many ways, but it also left me feeling cold - it still does. I don't care about the characters as much as it wants me to. There was such a need to establish tone and style that it simply lacked on the character front for me. By no small coincidence that then sorts itself out, and I found myself quite liking the end of Series 5, absolutely loving A Christmas Carol, and whilst Series 6 was too ambitious for its own good I cared about the characters a whole lot more so that I could appreciate emotive stories like The Girl Who Waited come the end of it. It worked in some ways and not in others, and I think the first step towards making it better is not burying Chibnall under the pressure of new Doctor, new companion, new style and tone all at the same time. It's also likely important to consider that whilst Series 5 managed it with issues, there's no guarantee of emulating that success again. |
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#47 |
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Clara as a character was just tiresome and, to be honest, all of Moffat's female characters are and were token 'strong, sassy women' who were nothing of the sort. I felt they were all completely interchangeable. I'd prefer that the new companion was anything other than a smart, sassy, argumentative, assertive, action-oriented... zzzzzz..... and provide some much needed light and shade in the stories.
). But I do agree with your point on too much change, echoed in my previous comment. It should be a gradual evolution if you wish to change the show, not an abrupt change. A showrunner may have their vision, but it's never going to be as big or important as the wider concept of the show itself... I guess without trying to sound too pretentious, even in a showrunner job you've got to earn the right to share to your vision by working at the show over some considerable time. You can't just come in and cause a massive 'shake up'... apart from anything else it'd be an insult to those people who do still watch the show. |
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#48 |
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I can't see how imitating the RTD era would bring much success to the show, when people would likely just see it as a poor man's version of the RTD era (as usually happens when you try and imitate something successful). I think the show is still here today because instead of trying to copy what RTD did and thus let the show get stale and fizzle out, Moffat dared to break the mould and make it something different from his predecessor, and the show will only go forward if Chibnall does the same.
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#49 |
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For me, all this talk of gradual evolution is part of the problem. It's got to be a big change to grab the attention in my view. There's no use slowly changing things by keeping Peter and Pearl them adding someone else etc.
For Chibnall to really put his stamp on the show, why would he continue with what is essentially a Moffat era incarnation? Surely a new Doctor, new companion etc from fresh for him would allow him to make his vision of the show clear from the off. Moffat did that in Series 5 right away with the fairytale vibe (something I adored for the show). Marketing wise, how do you promote that as well? It's basically the same, now with added 'xyz'. That's not wow in anyway. A new Dictor gets the casual audiences attention, a new companion less so, unless it's a big name, which being kind to Pearl she's not. She may be one day, but not yet. A new era means a clean slate if you ask me. It's certainly what I'd want to do as the showrunner. It allows you to dolour take on the show. I can't see why Chibnall would turn away from such a chance and keep the status quo? |
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#50 |
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I feel that, for Chibnall's first series, a complete relaunch is needed. Changing the showrunner isn't a selling point for the majority of viewers, only us lot really get excited by that kind of thing. I doubt most people who watch the show even know what Steven Moffat looks like.
They can update the logo, the title sequence and build a brand new TARDIS set, but if Capaldi is still at the front and centre of marketing, don't expect to go into any ratings thread and see a major boost for Chibnall's opening story. It'll just be a normal Doctor Who number. If the execs are serious about rebooting everything, I expect that really does mean everything. I wanted to see a long-running Doctor stick around with a new team because we haven't had that in NuWho yet, but I just don't think the show is in a strong enough position right now for that to be viable. Or... Series 10 could totally rejuvenate the brand and this entire discussion will have been for nothing ![]() Who knows. |
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