The last time that happened, with Tennant,I started off at Christmas being sad he was going, but by the time they had dragged it out to two whiny, self indulgent episodes, I just wanted him to go

I think it was unfair of RTD on SM and Matt, to overhype Tens leaving with TEOT it could've been casual like The Parting of The Ways where it just happened, so people didn't get to attached to his leaving, but still emotional enough to leave you in despair.

That send-off is one of the most iconic moments in New Who. Just look at fan reactions to the "I don't want to go" line at the end of the 50th. Why deny the audience that?

It was up to Moffat and the BBC to raise their game and keep RTD's momentum going. Just like the onus was on John Simm to pick up the baton from Derek Jacobi instead of dropping it like Frank Spencer.

It's like complaining that the opening episode of The Grand Tour should have been less spectacular so that it didn't make the new Top Gear pale into insignificance so much. RTD had the right to leave his mark and did so very well. Whatever he did at the end, you can't blame RTD for whatever legacy Moffat leaves, and however memorable most of the lore of his era will prove to be.

I think Moffats era will be more remembered for messing up established DW lore rather than creating new lore... and his new lore will be remembered as a hot mess of convoluted nonsense...

River, Silence will fall, The Silence, Trenzalore, the Fall of the Eleven, the First Question, changing the Time War outcome rendering it meaningless, Me and the fact immortality is a piece of cake, the mysteries of Clara, the woman in the shop and its lame not at all explained well connection with Missy, Clara being responsible for everything and now has a Tardis. and all the prophecies of death.. Is any of that well done thought out lore that adds to DW's history or is all just really messy not explained weightless stuff that happens..

As it ever been explained why River was able to still be there in The Big Bang, it was teased by Moffat in the behind the scenes show they use to do as a big thing and that they will be coming back to that, but I don't remember it ever coming up..

And that's not to mention that its the Era of no Consequences.... and the era that made the moon an egg, which is its biggest offence

Still there are some good stuff in there, such as The God Complex...

Exactly, it's not an era to celebrate like RTD's. But I think this is also why most of it will be forgotten. There are many contradictory and unwanted statements and moments in the old Doctor Who (live forever or 12 regenerations? His name being Theta Sigma, which was never presented as a nickname), but viewers and fans tend to pick and choose which bits they remember and consider canon.

For this reason I think that in years to come, new writers will create episodes that completely contradict much of Moffat's nonsense, and people will simply choose to accept that as canon because they like it, forgetting what Moffat may have said years ago.

I think it was him yet again misunderstanding the show. Regeneration is supposed to be an exciting, but still nerve-wracking, part of the show and RTD turned it into a vanity fest so he could make more overblown "emotional" storytelling. It just buckled under the hype it had dug itself in my opinion.

As said, The Parting of the Ways was a damn good regeneration, so why couldn't it have been something more like that?

I never felt less sympathetic to the Tenth Doctor than I did throughout The End of Time. I hope Moffat can leave on a better note.

As someone who generally enjoyed the RTD era, I was really disappointed by The End of Time. I thought it was a very poor end to a decent era and a good Doctor.

As for future writers/producers/Showrunners whatever, I get the impression from interviews that Moffat would be cool with it if they were to change aspects of his era in retrospect. Whatever the top bod in charge wants to do....do it. It's *your* show now. He's an admirer, quite right, of Robert Holmes and he wasn't exactly bothered about throwing stuff into the mix and mucking around with the established 'lore' or whatever. I honestly don't think that RTD or SM are that precious about their stuff, tbh. They're both fans who want the show to progress even if they have different 'takes' on how to go about it.

Completely agree with both of these posts. Moffat could put any sort of huge revelation in the show at this point, and I would just be like 'meh' because as you both say, it never means anything with him. I often think Moffat just imagines the trailer, or the teasing quote he can give, or the one scene of revelation when writing scripts because once an idea has been established, he quickly gets bored, abandons it before it's done, and moves on to the next big thing.

Hoping for more substance behind the idea's with Chibnall.

I don't agree with the quoted posts but I, regretfully, must agree with what you say Doctor Blue Box. I only think this became a problem from S6 onwards. Whilst a little vague and fuzzy on rare occasions S5 felt like a carefully considered and thought out piece of work. And Moffat wrapped up just enough that it worked as one complete season but he left enough threads dangling and questions unanswered that when 11, Amy and Rory got back into the Tardis at the close of the finale I felt the same excitement as I did when 10 and Rose did the very same at the end of The Christmas Invasion. And then something went awry. The most frustrating thing is that Moffat comes up with these amazing ideas and the potential for a great framework of a story arc but is too slap dash with his execution, either resorting to telling rather than showing or sometimes abandoning plot threads completely. This is what is most maddening. Every element is there if only more care had been taken. If instead of worrying more about a snappy soundbite for the trailer or a 'shock' reveal the groundwork had been done. There is an alternative version of the Amy pregnancy storyline that could have been brilliant and devastating. We didn't get it. And much as I will defend Matt Smiths last episode forever I have a great idea for how that entire concept could and should have been a season long arc that everyone (i.e no-one) would love to hear. I shall spare you but suffice to say. It's TV gold.

I think this problem of favouring twists and shocks and revelations over patient and strong story telling is an affliction that is hitting many shows, not just Doctor Who. And its not a good trend.

I agree that Moffat can write good one-off stories, but he is a poor showrunner for the reasons given above.

That said, to what alternative version of Amy's pregnancy storyline are you referring? You have piqued my interest.

And they could do serious damage to Chekov they probably wouldn't do to a female


My nephews aged 10 and 8 love the Doctor and have quite a collection of merchandise but to them (and most people really) it's a hell of a long wait for the next series and they've got distracted by The Star Wars revamp while waiting for it to come back.


Me too. After the Time Lord Victorious stuff it was all downhill. I just wished he's get on with it. 11 had a dramatically prolonged regeneration lead-up but that was what he thought was his last one, so fair enough. I absolutely loved 11 and do love 12 but they had to put up with all Moffett's Clara stuff which I hated as it took the focus off the Doctor and got more important than him. Which is just wrong. Especially recently, strong, feisty, young, wisecracking human females come and go in very dramatic fashion and each with her own relevant backstory and mostly tragic outcome but he's what it should be all about.

The End of Time was only a single episode when the RTD Specials were first announced so never say never

It would have to be an amazing story to justify two hour+ long episodes though (which The End of Time certainly wasn't).

I think this time though it will be one episode but maybe one that's given a similar length to either The Day Of The Doctor or Deep Breath to give both Moffat and Capaldi a proper exit.

Just to point out to people speculating that if the 2017 see's Capaldi leave, then it will be longer - Time of the Doctor was only a standard Christmas special length of one hour, and that had the job of throwing in some half thought out quickie explanations to supposedly explain everything in the 11th Doctor era that Moffat hadn't bothered to resolve up to that point as well as doing a leaving story.

Since he's at least been containing arcs to one series since Capaldi took over then all a Capaldi finale needs to do is tell a final story, and as such, while it could be longer than a standard Christmas special, there is no particular reason to assume it will be.



I sort of symapthise with you Moffat fans in a way, because the man clearly has a big, bold imagination, and I'd guess that's what those who love his era do love about it, but for me, there's no point having an imaginative idea if you can't be bothered to seed it believably, give it time, and write it coherently, seeing it through to the end, which Moffat seemingly finds boring to do. it's just one idea out of the bag, then straight on to the next one with no thought to whether anything feels satisfyingly written.

I've always thought he's better writing single episodes than as a showrunner in charge of creating an arc. I haven't found any of his series arcs satitsfying (series 5 came close, but was ultimately tied into the mystery of the exploding TARDIS which was forgotten for years then supposedly settled with a quickie mumbled explanation) and most of the episodes in his era that I rate highly of his are Christmas specials - episodes where he's unconcerned with an arc and just writing as a single episode writer.

Not to mention resolving 35 years of national curiosity and anticipation of what would happen after the Doctor used his last regeneration... by randomly squirting a puff of magic dust into his gob.

What curiosity and anticipation? The majority of the audience wouldn't have even known about that rule.

I was kind of upset at the time by how it was suddenly announced that 11 was the "last" Doctor, but I think looking back it was best that way. If we had known in advance who the "last" Doctor was, his whole reign would have been, for us fans, overshadowed by the question of what happens at the end of his run.

Plus, it sort of came about by chance that Moffat was able to do it at all. If RTD hadn't done the "Metacrisis" regeneration, or if Christopher Eccleston had agreed to come back for the 50th, 11 wouldn't have been the "last" Doctor. It was a development which came about pretty suddenly. Personally, I'm glad Moffat got it out of the way in such a low-key and sudden way.

Another showrunner might have completely ignored it, which wouldn't have been good.

I guess they didn't know who Tom Baker was, either. Give the plebs some credit. The only thing the average viewer was ever confused about was the difference between 12 regenerations and 12 lives. The average person in the street thought, "Doctor Who has twelve lives".


You mean like.... a story arc? Like River Song, the Silents, the Pandorica or something. Moffat did those, yet nothing about the regeneration limit.

Now don't be silly. Tom Baker was hugely popular, and appeared on the show for seven years. The "12 regenerations rule" was mentioned, only briefly, in a small handful of stories. You think that's a fair comparison to make, do you?

As I explained, it clearly wasn't intended for 11 to be the last Doctor. It only became possible once the War Doctor was established.

It was that brilliant scamp Robert Holmes who introduced the 'rule' ("Never...EVER...tell me the rules!!!") in 1976, but apart from that you had a line in the McGann 'Movie' and that was it, really, I think. I don't *think* the number of regenerations came up in 'Mawdryn Undead' even though The Doctor was sacrificing his remaining regenerations for David Collings et al; then the Brigs turned up at an extremely fortuitous time. Blimey, *years* since I saw that story...

Precisely, that's my point. My pal Isambard seems to be implying that the casual viewing public, or those of them who are old enough, will remember that rule as well as they remember Tom Baker. I don't think so, personally.

The bbc want to win back the fans that were lost when capaldi took over from matt smith https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=45d8kn5hApg

I'd be more ashamed by some of the absolute despicable mental cases in the comment section.

What an idiot.

Of course they do. Please don't look down at the plebs.

Happy birthday, by the way.


True. But with the show since losing a few million viewers due to lower Saturday nights, numerous axed repeats, fewer iPlayer hits and lower DVD sales, her shame is only personal. She lost the battle but her sentiment won the war.

I predicted a few times on these forums that this Christmas special will be the earliest ever, as well as being the lowest rating ever. Anyone confident enough to bet against that?

I agree 100%.

Doctor Who was my must see, get orgasmic over show of the week! The stories, the bonkersness, the quirk, the poignancy and the thrill. It was all there. It went downhill though from the moment River Song revealed she was Amy's daughter. What a gargantuan let down. Then the electric guitar playing 12th (or 13th?) Doctor was a convoluted ego-trip from the writer. Introducing the "War Doctor" was a catastrophe as far as I'm concerned because it has by and large made the whole modern era non-sensical. I felt Moffat's writing, whilst clever and scarily authentic, in the episodes from the RTD era, suffered greatly when he became showrunner. Series 5 was fine and gave hope that series 6 would get even better. But it didn't. Series 6 became convoluted and unintelligible. Full of stories that cried out "Gosh, look how clever I am, I'm a jolly intelligent writer!" rather than engaging, fun and believable plots.

By series 9, I actually couldn't care less as to whether I watched it or not, and I love the show! I found myself thinking "God, I miss Merlin!" because as it followed Strictly last year, it didn't have the magic Merlin had in the slot, and realistically, it should have had.

I actually don't even think I'll watch the Christmas Special. It looks stupid and in my view, involving a Super Hero is plain ridiculous. I am pleased Moffat is leaving and I long to see episodes like Turn Left and Midnight again.