If Amy Pond were still here (The Tardis can't ever go back to New York, remember), I suspect she'd be asking Moffat, "Is it a cry for help?"

Yeah, the thing is though, they don't. Or at least they wouldn't have. Young casual viewers wouldn't have even heard of it, and those who might have heard it in older shows mostly wouldn't remember such a tiny detail. By the way, I find it rather ironic that you tell me not to "look down" at people, when you are the one using the word "pleb."

Happy birthday to Doctor Who, yes.

What makes you think the ratings will be so low?

Isn't it that the Tardis can't ever go back to New York in that particular timeline? Or has it all got frightfully confusing?

You don't say?


Instinct. There's no buzz to the show anymore, it's been dead for a couple of years and no one has noticed and no one talks about it. Class has risen without trace. Far fewer people are looking forward to this episode than know, "Doctor Who has twelve lives". Going out so early means that too many casual viewers will be busy not watching TV. Only fans will PVR it, and that will result in one or two people sitting in front of the TV watching it instead of an entire extended family, as happened when RTD was running the show. That's why Kylie peaked with over 15M viewers.


Only confusing to the point that no one understands why the Doctor didn't just materialise there a year later or Amy simply left a message for history to say that she and Rory would get a train to Jersey and meet the Tardis there at 2pm.

At least with Rose, she was trapped behind the wall between a parallel universe which the Doctor couldn't open again without the power of the Timelords. It all made sensible sense at the time. Moffat rarely does, and when he does manage to it's usually when he's trashing 50 years of the show's lore in increasingly desperate attempts to leave his mark on the show. Perhaps if the new paradigm Daleks weren't such a flop, he wouldn't have created the War Doctor, Clara Oswald and defined the reason he left Gallifrey in the first place?

Agree with most of this but feel you are being far too generous to Moffat. Series 5 was in no way fine, it had storylines left dangling, it had the disgusting sight of a future companion hitting the Doctor over the head with a cricket bat (violence in Who should not be realistic), it had the abysmal Beast Below, the absurd Spitfires in Space, the dreadful humpback Daleks, the robot bomb saved by love, the boring Vampires, the ridiculous Silurains two parter, the so called comedian Corden, the awful mixing of reality and fiction Vincent, the fairytale remembering people into existence and the nonsensical story arc.

Of the previous two Christmas specials...one involved River Song and one involved Santa. The latter of those sounds preposterous really, and yet I consider it to easily be the better of the two specials. Even casting Nick Frost who I generally don't care for, and they got it right...I enjoyed Last Christmas a lot. It was fun, it was creepy, it was self-contained and it wasn't. It has decent supporting characters too. Then there was The Husbands of River Song which remembered to have fun, but forgot to check the dosage (and needed a far better title) - and it crossed into the realms of chaos a few too many times. The wrong side of ridiculous. It managed to pull off an incredibly poignant and touching ending somehow, and had the odd moment and joke along the way that was worth it, but it was pretty much a mess all around and was a frustratingly convoluted way to tell a story that could have been much better.

I'm not writing off the inclusion of a superhero in Doctor Who. The same writer made Santa work, he may well make this work too. And whilst I'm ready to see a post-Moffat Doctor Who, RTD was hardly stellar when it came to writing Christmas specials... opting for extreme doom and gloom some years, and utter ludicrousness in others. From trailers alone The End of Time looked like a cinematic masterpiece was on the way, but it was anything but. Some of my favourite episodes have been ones that have taken me by surprise in their quality. Whilst others that seem designed to be 'classics' or 'fan favourites' often fail because of hype, or because they pile expectation on and then cannot deliver.

Agree that RTD Christmas specials were pretty dire. I actually like Last Christmas, one of the few post 2007 Moffat stories that I think is good. Shame it went on too long at the end, and shame Clara didn't leave, it would have been so much better if she had. Husbands of River Song though was unfortunately like most post 2007 Moffat, pretty poor.

I think this could go either way. Early time slot, general public not in tune with Who anymore, written by Moffat, all suggest low ratings. However, no Who for a year could make more people tune in.

I'm not even a big fan of Series 5, but will concede it was a decent series all the same - even in its weaker years I tend to enjoy Doctor Who (S7 is the only one I really doubted my enjoyment).

I really enjoy The Beast Below on subsequent rewatches. Now with more awareness for Moffat's 'tone' it didn't throw me so much and I rather enjoy the story... a rare time we sort-of encounter 'space wildlife' as well as people/civilisations. Doctor Who doesn't do that enough.

The awful mixing of reality and fiction Vincent? You do realise that Shakespeare didn't really lose Loves Labour's Won to a CGI vortex of doom, right? And that Madame de Pompadour wasn't really being stalked by a spaceship from the future?

There's things about Series 5 I really don't like, but they're largely personal preference - above all else the series left me feeling cold. After a dreary final year with companionless Tennant (needed more Catherine Tate), it took me by surprise how much I didn't really care for Amy - and much less Rory. I understand that a lot of people like them, and I didn't even dislike them...I just didn't care. Raise the stakes as high as you like in the finale, kill them off... shock me even if only to undo it later on, but it's plot-shock rather than investment in the characters (I am a minority on here that really liked Clara, and had the character investment to make her exit in Face the Raven very sad. We don't talk about Hell Bent).

The Series 5 story arc functionally works, precisely because it left things dangling... not unintentionally unresolved, or a plot hole. It fully intended to deliver answers later on. Some it did rather well, others it failed to do quite so well. But neither of those are a reflection on Series 5 itself I'd argue... they're a reflection on Moffat setting up a decent premise in Series 5, and then dropping the ball in Series 6 and Series 7, which is where the real issues are.

As for Series 5 involving people being remembered back into existence, Series 3 had everyone somehow tuned into sattelites to give the Doctor superpowers, whilst The Specials had Timothy Dalton throwing pebbles at holograms that turn into meteorites that can travel through timelocked history, and Harold Saxons "Potions of Life". Even Series 1's Bad Wolf was conveniently a means to give Rose the exact powers she needed to save the day. The majority of these story arcs are nonsensical no matter who seems to write them. What matters is whether or not they're satisfying... Bad Wolf was quite popular and I'd argue because it looked effective on screen, and it wasn't devoid of consequences (The Doctor had to regenerate to save Rose, essentially). Similarly the Series 5 arc was quite popular because it all culminated in the 'something old/new/borrowed/blue' concept that was rather well done and so it was satisfying even if nonsensical along the way.

That depends entirely on if you liked Clara though. Understandably the conclusion wouldn't please those who didn't like her, but for those who did it was one of the most satisfying moments of Moffat's era... to have it almost certified that she was going, only for the episode to then flip things around and then insist on a further series with her. It's a divisive ending for sure, but for me it topped off an otherwise decent story. It even made Danny Pink likeable for a few minutes, and that's an achievement I never saw any episode pulling off!

As long as we get nothing as bad as The Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe again I'll personally count myself lucky. Of the Christmas specials he's written, I had bad vibes about both that one and last year's one - both ended up being my least favourites that he's done. I don't have such a bad vibe about this year's...it's hardly impressing me the way A Christmas Carol was, but I'm more than willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. If something can be said for The Husbands of River Song it was that its heart was in the right place and it was trying to have a bit more fun after a rather sad and depressing run of episodes. If this can do the same but show some restraint, it might yet be rather decent.

Hmm.... don't know what to make of this. I think I agree with you more than I disagree! However, I do hate the defence of Moffat that RTD did something just as bad. Yes RTD did a lot of bad, but overall his era was more enjoyable and had less "bad". Just to pick up on one point, DW should never have had a story involving a real life character who suffered from depression and committed suicide. This sort of thing should be steered well clear of. The way I interpret that particular story is that The Doctor contributed to Vincent's suicide.

I DO say.

Now, let's go into this rubbish you've posted in some more detail. I know how harsh that sounds, but I don't use the term loosely, I think it's an apt description. I am surprised you've posted such nonsense really, I thought you were more intelligent. Let me summarize in two main points.

Quote 1) Instinct. There's no buzz to the show anymore, it's been dead for a couple of years and no one has noticed and no one talks about it. Class has risen without trace

A ridiculous exaggeration. The media goes crazy over the start of a new series, as does the likes of Twitter, and some other opinion sharing platforms. iPlayer requests are massive. Overseas broadcasts incredibly high. This comment is based in some truth, in that the show isn't as hyped over as it once was, at least not in this country. For that, I do think some blame lies with Moffat. Not because he is a bad writer, but because he's simply been showrunner for too long. I know he tried to leave prior to series 10, but IMO even five years is usually too much for a showrunner. The cracks began to show with RTD just the same as they are doing with Moffat. His style, like RTD's did, has become old. But to suggest that the show is "dead" or that hardly anyone cares about it is complete nonsense. Complete nonsense.

Furthermore, I can assure you that your instincts do NOT include knowing the success of a television show over a month prior to it's airing. I think those in the field of science would generally back me up there.


Quote 2) Far fewer people are looking forward to this episode than know, "Doctor Who has twelve lives".

Again, rubbish. For someone who thinks they'd make a good showrunner, your understanding of the casual viewing audience is shockingly poor. You thinking that a six year break for the Daleks would be appropriate is further proof of that. The enthusiasm and love for the show, you no doubt have, but blimey you'd need to work on how to appease and understand an audience. Also, don't bother trying to predict what families will be doing at a certain time on Christmas Day. Barring lunchtime of course. It just makes you look a bit silly.

Try to take all of that constructively. I've said it because that's what I feel, not simply to be nasty. Above all else, try to understand just how much negativity your gloom mongering comments can cause on forums such as this, which should actually be places for fans to correspond over common interests in a positive way.

I don't entirely agree with him but some of his points are valid. I am just going to focus on S8 and S9. The direction they went with the show has alienated a lot of viewers and that is backed up by the ratings too. It has mainly alienated the younger audience, this is why many people have mentioned no kids talk about it in school anymore. I know a couple teachers who posted on here about that.

Then we could also look at the character development of Capaldi, S8 they made him unlikable and sidelined him for Clara and S9 changed his character on a whim. This is not Capaldi's fault but rather some dross writing which caused a massive drop in the audience which is the casual fans. I've also never seen such negativity around the show either, the points are valid.

Then the not casual fans some are also displeased with the show and many i have talked with definitely don't have the interest they did in the past. And the majority of the reason is they aren't happy with the show the past few seasons.

Now obviously this isn't everyone but it is clear as day interest is fading with the show and there is a lot more displeasure about. I blame S8 for this mainly, new doctor, new era to try and get new fans into the show, but instead they ignored an entire demographic which hurt the show. Not permanently but it has.

Amen, Amen and Amen.

I gave him some credit, in that I agreed the huge hype for the show isn't as huge any more, at least not in this country. However, his exaggeration is totally uncalled for. Claiming the show is "dead" or that "nobody cares about it" is simply ludicrous. I don't know why he does it. Then to make random guesses about the ratings and broadcast slot of the Christmas Special for no real reason...it's all a bit stupid of him, don't you agree?

And very surprising, because he ISN'T stupid. He simply seems to be trying to pretend he is.

Disliking most of the stories, giving valid criticism, debating points here, is all perfectly fair comment. I'd even agree with many of the criticisms, especially of the last two seasons.

Going beyond that, talking down the show by making exaggerated claims about a decline, turning every thread and comment into something they think is damaging to SM and supports their position is going too far for me.

I have to assume those sorts of comments are driven by a love of the show. It originates in a dislike of (at least some of) the current output, and a desire to see it return to something more to their liking, and will (they think) restore it to some semi-mythical glorious past.

But all comments about quality are purely subjective. Opinion's differ. Everyone searches for "evidence" that their opinion of the show is backed by many others. For the life of me I can't understand the bile and vitriol that is heaped upon SM by some.

It's Trump style debating. It's extremist. It's demonizing SM. It says more about the person making such comments than it does about the reality of SM. It's not helpful or constructive, especially as SM is now on his way out of the door.

He's a fan too. If he wasn't prepared to stretch his term for the sake of the show he'd have left a couple of years ago with no-one in a position to replace him.

SM may not be producing what you happen to like (but many do still like), and you may fear for the future of the show, but that's no justification for the nastiness I've seen in this forum over a very long period.

I've no wish suppress anyone's views, but I'm increasingly tired of those strident negative comments that go beyond straightforward criticism. It makes this forum quite an unpleasant place to visit much of the time.

It's a pity one such voice of moderation has recently left this forum (CD93). He is missed. However, I am glad there are still many moderate views being expressed.

Sorry, but really don't see the point of this post. It's just yet another having a go at posters who have presented very valid reasons why they don't like Moffat's output, with yet again NO evidence whatsoever of why some people do like it. Being anti Moffat's output is not extremist in the slightest and as far as I am concerned there is plenty of good reason to be so. I personally don't demonise Moffat as a person but I do demonise him as a show runner and I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. For me, Moffat has done untold damage to Doctor Who. And as for "opinions" - yeah, maybe, but does anyone really think, for example, that making the moon a giant egg was a good idea? Really?? I would seriously question someone who does hold that opinion.

"I've no wish to suppress anyone's views" you write. Hmm.....

I just don't think you can ask for "evidence" as to why someone likes a certain era or Doctor or whatever! It's all subjective opinion. Said before on here, not bothered how much someone dislikes an era of the show, it's just when other posters are dismissed as 'acolytes' or 'fanbois' because their views are different that I can get a bit irked. And I'd be the same if it was people who like Moffat, RTD, JNT, Graham Williams, etc etc

Did you read anything I actually said? Summary: Criticism is good. Nastiness is not. I made the distinction clear, yet you persist in claiming that I am the one suppressing the views of others.

Personlly speaking, I don't intend to defend Moffat by retorting that RTD did something just as bad, but when there's only been the two of them running the show in its modern guise it's hard not to draw comparisons. I'd say it's less about defending Moffat with an RTD-shortcoming, and a case of highlighting how so far nobody (even when 'nobody' amounts to just two men) has delivered a wholly satisfying and logical story arc on Doctor Who - that it is unfair to single out Moffat for convoluted arc writing when nobody has actually given us competent arc writing. There's things I've enjoyed about the writing from both showrunners, and things I've not enjoyed so much. Bit whilst the show is still fundamentally the same, I think those things I like and dislike vary so much that it makes it hard for me to compare the two - I find myself unable to say that I enjoy the RTD years more than the Moffat years, because I am so glad the show doesn't have RTD's weaker elements now, though I currently wish it had more of RTD's strengths as well. I am glad it plays up to Moffat's strengths right now, though there are weaknesses in his writing that frustrate the hell out of me. All in all I find myself unable to say which one is "better", and I don't think there can be a definitive answer. Just like with the story arc writing, it comes down to personal satisfaction...which of the two do you find more satisfying. I probably do find RTD's vision of Doctor Who more satisfying as well, and as a result was generally more enjoyable (I actually think it was more 'accessible', if I was to find the right word for it) but I can still see how good the Moffat era is. There are things about it I like a lot more, even if they're part of a bigger picture I'm not quite as impressed with (i.e. I like Capaldi much more than I like Tennant, but there's probably more Tennant episodes I'd prefer to watch again).

As for the inclusion of a depressed character, I felt the way it was handled in Vincent and the Doctor was really endearing and sensible, but then I say that as someone who suffers with depression - so I'm a little biased. It's a real and common problem, and so I'm glad the show didn't choose to just ignore it or gloss over it. Quite rightly it stayed true to history and Vincent took his life, but it made sure to show that The Doctor and Amy weren't responsible for that - that these mental health issues are far more complex than any one person or event, and that the entire premise of their visit served to give him one thing more to smile about in his life. The episode makes a valid point... life isn't this linear thing which goes up and down a happiness scale, resulting in death if you crash too low. It's an assortment of things both good and bad, and everyone is grateful for the good things even if they don't negate the bad things. Vincent had depression, a very bad thing. It wasn't negated by his adventure with The Doctor and Amy, but he was certainly very grateful for it.

Thematically it's very similar to The Unquiet Dead. Charles Dickens is inspired once again by his adventure with The Doctor and Rose. Of course he'll die a year later and his next work will go unfinished, and there's a real sense of tragedy about that, but isn't it all just worth it to inspire him once again and give him that 'one last surprise'? He heads back to London to make amends with his family, and even if he doesn't have a long future ahead he's given so much happiness. Happiness is fleeting and never permanent, and you're grateful for it in hindsight. There's that same sense of tragedy about what happens to Vincent. But whilst he'll lose his life (to an illness, not because of what anyone does to him), he had that little bit more happiness in it before the end. And that makes the whole story utterly worthwhile to me.

Those reaction videos are made of cringe.

I think there are opinions held on both sides (pro and anti Moffat) that are very strong, and this can sometimes lead to surprisingly bitter exchanges on these forums.

I think a rule of thumb is always: Argue the point, not the person.

I can't help thinking that if Capaldi does leave, it won't be such a bad thing. People act like if he goes with Moffat, he's barely gotten started but he'll have had three full series, four Christmas specials, appearances in both the 50th anniversary and Christmas 2013, in an episode of Class (possibly a second appearance if the show gets another series) as well as playing different characters in a liked Tenth Doctor story and the most successful series of Torchwood.

Truthfully, he's actually done quite a lot and I still can't help that it will benefit the show and Chibnall to have a complete overhaul going into Series 11.

Also this video from 5WF sums it up a little better .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNpHkCc1FLw

I totally agree. For me personally, the show desperately needs a refresh and that requires a complete sweep of the board - Doctor, companion, show runner and story arcs. Obviously other people are free to disagree and that's entirely subjective but imo DW has become stale and lacklustre. I still haven't watched last year's Christmas special (mostly because it starred two characters I really don't care about - the 12th Doctor and River, both poorly written for me). I'm not enthused to watch this year's one either. I was once a huge fan of the show but now the best I can say about it is 'meh'.

I think it's a wasted opportunity not to give Chibnall a completely fresh start. The show is hardly at its peak so there's really nothing to lose and Capaldi isn't hard done or short changed considering he'll have done a similar number of episodes to DT and MS. It feels like it should be a natural end to his character.

I presume they've not filmed next year's Christmas special with series 10 so they're giving themselves time to make the ultimate decision. Perhaps seeing how Christmas or the new series go down with the public first?

Almost certainly not. Based on how it's always gone in the past, I'm pretty certain that if a new Doctor is coming for series 11, then they would have already been cast. We had Matt Smith announced a year before he first appeared, and that was just when he announced to us the public - just think how far ahead of his first appearance he was actually cast. Then again, with Peter Capaldi, they were ready to make the announcement to us the public over 4 months before his first appearance, so he would have been cast well before that. Add to that RTD's comments about casting Donna for series 4 before Martha had even appeared in series 3, and Moffat, and now Chibnall were given there show runner jobs well before the time of them taking over, and it gives you the picture that everything in this show is decided well before time.

Fans know most of these things, and have heard every Doctor/companion go on about how they had to keep the secret for ages, which is why it baffles me that every time there's a possibility of change, some people seem to think if it will happen at the last minute.

Generally, it seems, if people and the media are aware enough of a change to be speculating, then it's already long since happened.

I'm 99.9% sure that if there is to be a new Doctor for series 11, then the actor in question has already been cast and is waiting for the day he doesn't have to keep the secret anymore.