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Old 18-11-2016, 22:05
RobinOfLoxley
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Can't remember how Windows 10 turned into surge protectors but if any passers by are really interested to learn about them I suggest you ignore weston and read this:
http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-surge-protector/
westom could learn a lot from it as well.
UK articles and suppliers may be more applicable.

While IT Admins, may buy this technology, and home-users, after an expensive purchase, I have never had any problems without them.
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Old 19-11-2016, 01:09
emptybox
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It probably depends on the quality of the power lines locally.
As I said, I live in the Scottish Borders, and the infrastructure is absolutely diabolical.

We get a lot of these short power cuts that last about a minute.
I'm convinced someone at the power company throws a switch just for the fun of it.
Sometimes we might go a couple of months without one, then we have a period where you get one every couple of days for a few weeks.

But whatever the reason, they're too short to go round turning things off, and they reset all sorts of things around the house such as the oven timer, the phone settings and also the central heating timer (if you've pressed the heating advance button it resets that). And also the router reboots.
That's one of the reasons I bought the UPS, to stop the router constantly rebooting, and to have the landline connected to it so I didn't have to keep setting the date and time on it.

Of course, at this time of year, we also get longer cuts due to bad weather, and the UPS doesn't help for those, except that, if I have the computer and monitor turned off, the router keeps going for about an hour, so I'm able to stay on the net on my tablet.

Surge protectors may not protect against lightning strikes, but in my case it seems to be problems in the supply that is mainly the issue, and I think the better protectors do help with those.
Of course, being stingy, I tend to buy the cheap ones, which probably aren't up to the job.
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Old 19-11-2016, 01:25
RobinOfLoxley
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Rural areas can be 'different' (often on a TT supply) and suffering a variety of problems that more accessible villages and towns have long forgotten.

Local knowledge is the key. If it is reasonably common for neighbours, friends and the locals down the pub, or even the pub and local shops themselves, to have protectors and UPSs and even generators, it is probably wise to consider them yourself.
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Old 19-11-2016, 01:40
CappySpectrum
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It probably depends on the quality of the power lines locally.
As I said, I live in the Scottish Borders, and the infrastructure is absolutely diabolical.

We get a lot of these short power cuts that last about a minute.
I'm convinced someone at the power company throws a switch just for the fun of it.
Sometimes we might go a couple of months without one, then we have a period where you get one every couple of days for a few weeks.

But whatever the reason, they're too short to go round turning things off, and they reset all sorts of things around the house such as the oven timer, the phone settings and also the central heating timer (if you've pressed the heating advance button it resets that). And also the router reboots.
That's one of the reasons I bought the UPS, to stop the router constantly rebooting, and to have the landline connected to it so I didn't have to keep setting the date and time on it.

Of course, at this time of year, we also get longer cuts due to bad weather, and the UPS doesn't help for those, except that, if I have the computer and monitor turned off, the router keeps going for about an hour, so I'm able to stay on the net on my tablet.

Surge protectors may not protect against lightning strikes, but in my case it seems to be problems in the supply that is mainly the issue, and I think the better protectors do help with those.
Of course, being stingy, I tend to buy the cheap ones, which probably aren't up to the job.
Ouch! I'd be a nervous person if I was updating firmware on devices that doesn't have reliable power.
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Old 19-11-2016, 09:45
Thine Wonk
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Surely in the worst case it's only going to blow the power supply anyway? £30 replacement for a laptop or desktop power supply unless you have a really expensive gaming rig, in which case the power supply could be up to £70.
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Old 19-11-2016, 10:24
RobinOfLoxley
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Last modern ATX PSU I bought was £7 (delivered) from a private eBay seller (2 years ago)

We had a brief exchange of emails over delivery. But he explained it was a brand new 'HP' 300W unit from his new PC and he was replacing it because he was fitting a high power graphics card.

Hardly seems worth the hassle of selling it, and I guess he hoped for a little more, but there was no hint of disappointment in his email. eBay is a cruel mistress sometimes.

I had to buy 4 x £1 IDE/SATA/Molex adapter cables as well when I found my old PC of course had all the old connectors.

He also included the yellow motherboard adapter cables, presumably from his new PSU, which I was not expecting.


Still £7 is £7 and generic laptop chargers may be £15.

A whole house of bits and pieces can add up and of course kitchen appliances etc would be expensive if blown. Definite Insurance job then.

But still, I have never come across whole house protectors in the UK.


Do Solar Panel PV systems have good protection?
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Old 19-11-2016, 10:31
stvn758
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Anyone ever suffered a surge or is this just another gimmick like expensive HDMI cables?

We've had the electricity abruptly cut off for various reasons, snow, storms etc but nothing has ever been damaged.
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Old 19-11-2016, 10:46
njp
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Anyone ever suffered a surge or is this just another gimmick like expensive HDMI cables?

We've had the electricity abruptly cut off for various reasons, snow, storms etc but nothing has ever been damaged.
My personal view is that most "surges" (actually short duration voltage spikes) are more likely to damage the surge suppressor than they were ever likely to damage the equipment being "protected". This is good if you manufacture surge suppressors because it makes them a consumable that has to be replaced every few years. I don't bother with them.

The only surge damage I've personally dealt with was at a friend's rural property. The house opposite was struck by lightning (demolishing the chimney), and the induced voltage spike (presumably on the phone line) took out a router and one of the two cordless phone base stations in my friend's house. Everything else survived. No surge suppressors in use - and this in a property supplied by an overhead mains cable.
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Old 19-11-2016, 15:39
westom
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But still, I have never come across whole house protectors in the UK.
Listed were but a few of many manufacturers of integrity. Manufacturers of equipment required for and known to also provide human safety. Also note manufacturers intentionally not listed.

PV systems also only use (required) this 'whole house' protection.

Power loss also does not damage appliances. Protectors do nothing during a power loss. Numbers say why.

Potentially destructive surge is typically once every seven years. Robust protection already inside appliances makes that threat rare. UK risk is substantially less. However, that number can vary significantly even in a same town. Long distance pipe lines and other geology affect risk.

Surges on phone lines are less likely. Unfortunately junk science is common. If damage is on a modem, then a surge entered on that phone line? Of course not. It is called electricity. That mean an incoming path and a completely different outgoing path to earth must exist. A most common incoming path is AC electric. Incoming to everything. But since a best outgoing path is via that modem, then only that modem is damaged.

Damage is an outgoing path - not incoming one. Protection means a solution (whole house protector) is required on an incoming path - before it enters a building.. If a surge threatens a modem, then it is also incoming to everything else.

If surges are so rare, then why would anyone spend money on a protector? Naive consumers may spend £20 or £50 on a plug-in protector. Informed consumers spend £1 per protected appliance for a proven 'whole house' solution.

Why do so many spend 20 or 50 times more money on a near zero protectors? Because a majority are only educated by advertising, hearsay, and wild speculation. Most ignore numbers. Few learn about protection that actually works - a properly earthed 'whole house' solution.

Damage is often on the outgoing path. Never ceases to amaze me why that simple concept is so hard to grasp once one has swallowed plug-in protector propaganda.
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Old 19-11-2016, 16:01
RobinOfLoxley
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I don't even want to spend Dollar One on each electrical item in my home.

In my 53 years, in the UK, I, nor anyone I know, has lost anything due to power surges.

Not to say some don't, but overall it is rare to the point of unimportance.

Partial Copper Thefts from Sub-stations caused some mischief a few years ago, and some hundreds or low thousands were affected, with multiple appliance failure.
The Power Companies compensated them, I believe.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=co...utf-8&oe=utf-8
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Old 19-11-2016, 16:26
MartinPickering
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My home-made UPS system: http://www.glodark.com/powerbright_inverter.htm
About lightning protection: http://www.glodark.com/lightn.htm
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Old 19-11-2016, 17:00
westom
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Item in that citation that does more protection than everything else is an earth bar and pictured ground block. If properly earthed, it does 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection. That phone line protector, AVR, and UPS will only do less than 1% - assuming it claims to do any protection.

Of course, a best protector is a knot tied in the power cord. It is best protection as long as that recommendation is just as subjective as a phone protector.

Citation makes a major mistake.
What sort of wire should I use to connect the earthing bar to the rod? Whatever you use is likely to vaporise very quickly in a strike!
Nonsense. A 1 mm wire will conduct up to 50,000 amp surge without vaporizing. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So an earth bar is hardwired with at least 4 mm wire. Note, recommendation with numbers.

Digging a hole for an earthing rod (electrode) is bad. Copper clad steel rods must be driven into virgin ground. Virgin earth does not exist if a hole is dug.

A critically important point was made without understanding its serious significance. That hardwired connection to earth must be low impedance (ie less than 3 meters). Every meter shorter increases appliance protection.
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Old 19-11-2016, 18:39
RobinOfLoxley
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Only a Competent Person should replace an Earth Spike (and they are rare these days, except in Rural locations)

'Competent Person' effectively means a Qualified and Registered Electrician and they must submit a certificate or report to the relevant authorities about such Works, with Test Results.


An interesting corollary on Earth Spikes is the actual danger they provide to Livestock. on farms and smallholdings, for example.
Excessive ground potential differences may arise which can kill cows and horses, but not humans, due to the differences in length of footprint and hoofprint, or rather the stride between them.

Nasty incident a few years ago (probably with an old cable fault, rather than spikes/stakes).
But even Ground Ground Isn't Ground!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/othe...ng/9395743.stm


On Golf Courses etc, Humans are advised to crouch with feet close together when lightning is close

And don't approach downed power lines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLVzvMTgGDY
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Old 19-11-2016, 19:02
MartinPickering
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I think people are missing the point that the link I gave is for earthing for a coaxial aerial cable for which there are probably no standards or regulations. It is NOT a safety earth. Its purpose is to reduce damage caused by a static discharge or a hit by lightning.
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Old 19-11-2016, 19:11
RobinOfLoxley
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Please re-post/quote the relevant bit. I can't see it.
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Old 19-11-2016, 19:43
CappySpectrum
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Fascinating. Without seeing this, I would have died. Thing is, would anyone survive it or rather most. As don't forget clear rational focus thinking goes right out the window when panic kicks in. *smoke*
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Old 19-11-2016, 20:37
RobinOfLoxley
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Ignoring the tech bit, I think it is a modern classic, like our Public Information Films used to be.
I just stumbled on it. Fab.

(same principle as birds safely perching on overhead cables)
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Old 19-11-2016, 20:48
CappySpectrum
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I always did wonder how the birds stood on the powerlines for trains with 11,000+ volts pumping through them...
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Old 19-11-2016, 21:03
Maxatoria
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TT earthing is pretty common here in Stoke and the local elecy board aint bothered to replace large sections of the wiring and even so it would still require people to update their boards and so long as it works no one is going to bother.

But with these sorts of things you also need to consider under supply (brown outs) as well as surges as they can make components work harder that they need to, this can lead to stuff dying earlier than it needs to.

You need proper isolated systems which aint cheap to protect stuff.
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Old 19-11-2016, 22:25
westom
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Plenty of 'standards' exist. However 'regulation' only addresses earthing for human protection. Earthing for appliance protection is not found in and is not the purpose of human safety regulations.

Gurus who teach this stuff and who know standards (industry and others) also complain about this lack of regulations. Dr Standler in his book "Protection of Electronic Circuits from Overvoltage" say:
This situation could be resolved by the use of mandatory standards ... At this time this book was written (1988), the author saw no hope of such standards being adopted in the United States for overvoltages on the mains.
Protection from direct lightning strikes is routinely installed in facilities that cannot have damage. For example, phone industry standards (long before transistors existed) meant a BT central office would suffer about 100 surges with each storm. And that computer in every town is not damaged. How often is your town without phone service for four days while BT replaces that computer? Never?

Appliance protection means a earth ground, that only meets human safety regulations, must also be upgraded to meet appliance safety standards.

Cable TV industry routinely installs best protection for free. Their superior solution has and needs no protector. Examples were implied in a glodark.com citation - that did not explain how it is installed, why it works, or numbers.

Protectors are only installed when a wire (inside a cable) cannot connect directly to earth. BT once put those in master sockets. But stopped. Probably because surges are so less frequent in the UK.

Isolation does not provide protection. Protection is found in a simple concept called single point earth ground. It works on a principle that also eliminates ground loops and hum in audio equipment. Isolation and other techniques can enhance effective protection. But does nothing if that effective and required solution is not first earthed. Solution answers a question that defines effective protection - where are hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorbed?

Same 'single point earth ground' concept explains why a four legged animal is electrocuted by lightning that might strike a tree some 20 meters away. And why crouching with feet together (as defined by Dr Copper at the U of Illinois) is also effective protection. Protection is always about single point ground - not defined by a protector. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Brownouts and blackouts cause damage when speculation replaces basic knowledge. Brownouts are problematic to less robust 'motorized' appliances. If the utility cannot maintain voltage, then it cuts off power - to protect those 'at risk' motorized appliances. Brownouts do not damage properly designed 'electronics'. That international design standard has existed long before PCs even existed.
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Old 20-11-2016, 08:56
Thine Wonk
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I always did wonder how the birds stood on the powerlines for trains with 11,000+ volts pumping through them...
Well they aren't grounded or bridging the live and neural at the same time.
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Old 20-11-2016, 09:33
s2k
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It probably depends on the quality of the power lines locally.
As I said, I live in the Scottish Borders, and the infrastructure is absolutely diabolical.

We get a lot of these short power cuts that last about a minute.
I'm convinced someone at the power company throws a switch just for the fun of it.
Sometimes we might go a couple of months without one, then we have a period where you get one every couple of days for a few weeks.
Sounds like my parent's house. They live in a small village out in the sticks and get brief dips in power every now and again. It can't be doing the equipment much good and I'm fairly certain stuff has been damaged as a result, but I have no real means of proving it.

All their computer and electrical equipment of higher value is subsequently running off surge protectors.
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Old 20-11-2016, 11:52
emptybox
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Sounds like my parent's house. They live in a small village out in the sticks and get brief dips in power every now and again. It can't be doing the equipment much good and I'm fairly certain stuff has been damaged as a result, but I have no real means of proving it.

All their computer and electrical equipment of higher value is subsequently running off surge protectors.
Yes, I get power dips as well as power cuts, and as well as things stopping working, I did seem to go through a lot of routers before I bought the UPS unit. They seemed to gradually lose functionality and bits stopped working.
In the cupboard I've got one old one where the ethernet ports all stopped working one by one, and another where the wifi stopped working.

Of course it could just be coincidence, and I know routers have a limited lifespan anyway.
And indeed PSUs and set top boxes stopping working after power cuts could also just be coincidence.............
Or these things could have been on their way out anyway, and just given a final nudge.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:00
westom
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Of course it could just be coincidence, and I know routers have a limited lifespan anyway.
Yes. And put numbers to it. Expected lifetime is anywhere from 25 years to hundreds of years - if properly designed.

Brownouts and blackouts cause damage when speculation replaces basic knowledge. Is that clear enough? Power cuts damage nothing. If a blackout causes damage, then power off by its switch also destroys it.

Now, power cuts can be created (preceeded) by a completely different anomaly. Ethernet ports stop working when that completely different anomaly exists.

Do you have protection from that completely different anomaly? UPS does nothing to protect from that anomaly - repeated how many times? Only effective solution (necessary to even protect that UPS) is a properly earthed 'whole house' solution. It was the only effective solution over 100 years ago. And remains THE effective and least expensive solution today.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:24
westom
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I always did wonder how the birds stood on the powerlines for trains with 11,000+ volts pumping through them...
Concepts demonstrated by RobinOfLoxley's video also apply to appliance protection. As defined in a post that said, "It is called electricity. That mean an incoming path and a completely different outgoing path to earth must exist. " Both demonstrate why all were taught in elementary school science how electricity works.
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