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Guardian: EU agrees to push UK into Hard Brexit


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Old 21-11-2016, 23:37
andykn
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Read Steve_Holmes post very carefully. 1960 was the year of our first application to join the EEC..
Because we'd dropped to 4th from 1st preceding that. It was only when we joined that the declining trend was halted.
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Old 21-11-2016, 23:43
allaorta
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Because we'd dropped to 4th from 1st preceding that. It was only when we joined that the declining trend was halted.
But not because we joined and the whole of the post 73 seventies and most of the eighties saw Britain in an abysmal state and it hasn't gotten any better since.
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Old 21-11-2016, 23:46
james_lndsay
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-farage-le-pen

"European leaders have come to a 27-nation consensus that a “hard Brexit” is likely to be the only way to see off future populist insurgencies, which could lead to the break-up of the European Union."

There may not be any negotiations yet but it seems the EU's stance is now hardening as the triggering of Article50 is nearing, The EU president (whoever that is?) already told us it was 'Hard Brexit or no Brexit' and it seems the 27 have now all signed up to this plan of thought too.

The PM surely won't back down on Border Controls (as she's already stated) so it seems very clear what's going to happen.
This will not stall the rise of populist parties, it will encourage them even more,, again the elite don't listen to the citizens.
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Old 21-11-2016, 23:47
andykn
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But not because we joined and the whole of the post 73 seventies and most of the eighties saw Britain in an abysmal state and it hasn't gotten any better since.
But we did stop the decline in our position despite many other countries developing.

And how do you think it will get better outside the EU?
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Old 22-11-2016, 00:54
Richard_Cranium
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We all are. All Brits have seen their currency drop. All Brits are experiencing higher prices.
nope just the cowardly and those who have skin in remaining
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Old 22-11-2016, 00:55
Richard_Cranium
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They've shrunk too since the 23rd June.
nope doing just fine thank you, the currency gamblers didn't scare me lol.
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Old 22-11-2016, 08:20
jjwales
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nope just the cowardly and those who have skin in remaining
Eh?
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Old 22-11-2016, 08:49
clinch
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What I found amusing in an article in Sunday's Observer was that, in the same breath as saying that there could be no a-la-carte and we had to be punished, our friends across la Manche were reportedly saying this:

"The French are keen to bind the UK into closer defence co-operation even after it leaves the EU, aware that the need to do so will be all the greater with Trump in the White House."

I would have thought that, if there was to be no a-la-carte, the French would surely not be expecting us to defend them whilst they tried to shaft us.
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Old 22-11-2016, 09:27
droogiefret
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I would challenge the current idea that negotiations cannot take place in public.After seeing the debacle that was Cameron's concessions I don't think there will be any negotiations behind closed doors.

The government is being rather naive about this.
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Old 22-11-2016, 10:56
andykn
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nope just the cowardly and those who have skin in remaining
Your grip on reality is slipping. All Britons have experienced a drop in their currency and higher prices, not just those who didn't vote for it.
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Old 22-11-2016, 10:57
andykn
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nope doing just fine thank you, the currency gamblers didn't scare me lol.
Maybe not, but they have made your currency worth less, as has inflation.
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Old 22-11-2016, 10:58
andykn
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What I found amusing in an article in Sunday's Observer was that, in the same breath as saying that there could be no a-la-carte and we had to be punished, our friends across la Manche were reportedly saying this:

"The French are keen to bind the UK into closer defence co-operation even after it leaves the EU, aware that the need to do so will be all the greater with Trump in the White House."

I would have thought that, if there was to be no a-la-carte, the French would surely not be expecting us to defend them whilst they tried to shaft us.
Do you have an actual reliable quote from anyone relevant saying "we had to be punished"? Note: pointing out that we can't have our cake and eat it isn't "punishment".
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Old 22-11-2016, 11:03
allaorta
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But we did stop the decline in our position despite many other countries developing.

And how do you think it will get better outside the EU?
Are you denying my statement about the 70s and 80s? Tell me which years were good for the people.

How it will be better you are about to find out. You and others keep blathering on about gloom and doom outside the EU, giving no thought about what it was, is and will be inside the EU; my guess is you would like a nice socialist superstate.
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Old 22-11-2016, 11:24
clinch
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Do you have an actual reliable quote from anyone relevant saying "we had to be punished"? Note: pointing out that we can't have our cake and eat it isn't "punishment".

Well, Hollande said this:

François Hollande has sent one of the strongest warnings yet that Britain will have to pay a heavy price for leaving the European Union, adding to deep concern in financial markets.

“There must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price, otherwise we will be in negotiations that will not end well and, inevitably, will have economic and human consequences,” the French president said.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ncois-hollande

Now, as to my original point, the French say there can be no a-la-carte agreement at the same time as wanting an a-la-carte agreement whereby the UK commits itself to closer defence co-operation with the EU. I thought they were accusing us of wanting our cake and eat it.
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Old 22-11-2016, 11:55
HopesandDreams
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Well, Hollande said this:



https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ncois-hollande

Now, as to my original point, the French say there can be no a-la-carte agreement at the same time as wanting an a-la-carte agreement whereby the UK commits itself to closer defence co-operation with the EU. I thought they were accusing us of wanting our cake and eat it.
Exactly. I tend to try to ignore all this kind of posturing, Hollande is soon to be discarded to the dustbin, so his thoughts frankly are vacuous, rather like his brain.
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Old 22-11-2016, 12:43
andykn
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Are you denying my statement about the 70s and 80s? Tell me which years were good for the people.

How it will be better you are about to find out. You and others keep blathering on about gloom and doom outside the EU, giving no thought about what it was, is and will be inside the EU; my guess is you would like a nice socialist superstate.
The point is, outside the EU our place in the world was falling. Inside the EU it didn't. So however bad it was for us inside the EU it was just as bad for others outside; for example the 1973 oil crisis was global.
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Old 22-11-2016, 12:44
andykn
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Well, Hollande said this:



https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ncois-hollande

Now, as to my original point, the French say there can be no a-la-carte agreement at the same time as wanting an a-la-carte agreement whereby the UK commits itself to closer defence co-operation with the EU. I thought they were accusing us of wanting our cake and eat it.
Er, right, so Hollande didn't say punished, just that we can't have our cake and eat it.
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Old 22-11-2016, 13:12
BrokenArrow
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Er, right, so Hollande didn't say punished, just that we can't have our cake and eat it.
So we are all agreed then an end to FMOP is a desirable piece of cake?
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Old 22-11-2016, 13:17
fefster
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I saw that Damian Grammaticus on BBC News this morning, covering talks between the EU and David Davis.
It was remarkable how little the position of the UK was represented and how much EU rhetoric was repeated.
Clearly, a solution will need to be found, but in the meantime, the EU are just taking a hard opening stance.
This seems really obvious to me.
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Old 22-11-2016, 13:20
Cheetah666
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So we are all agreed then an end to FMOP is a desirable piece of cake?
We're all agreed that the British see it that way. The principle for the EU is that they can't allow any country to cherry pick between the four freedoms, regardless of which of them they may see as undesirable, or the whole basis of the internal market could fall apart.
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Old 22-11-2016, 13:26
trevgo
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I saw that Damian Grammaticus on BBC News this morning, covering talks between the EU and David Davis.
It was remarkable how little the position of the UK was represented and how much EU rhetoric was repeated.
Clearly, a solution will need to be found, but in the meantime, the EU are just taking a hard opening stance.
This seems really obvious to me.
Going to be squeaky if we push A50 and find that they weren't bluffing then, won't it?
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Old 22-11-2016, 13:30
BrokenArrow
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We're all agreed that the British see it that way. The principle for the EU is that they can't allow any country to cherry pick between the four freedoms, regardless of which of them they may see as undesirable, or the whole basis of the internal market could fall apart.
I don't think so.

The problem for the EU as I see it, is that can not get any consensus through the European parliament.

They can't get 28 to agree on much of anything, so they just don't bother to try.

Everybody has to conform to whatever is already there however bad it may be for many member states.
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Old 22-11-2016, 13:35
jmclaugh
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We're all agreed that the British see it that way. The principle for the EU is that they can't allow any country to cherry pick between the four freedoms, regardless of which of them they may see as undesirable, or the whole basis of the internal market could fall apart.
In which case the only solution is to leave the single market and the reality is that is what the electorate voted.
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Old 22-11-2016, 13:37
Cheetah666
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In which case the only solution is to leave the single market and the reality is that is what the electorate voted.
That's about the size of it.
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Old 22-11-2016, 13:38
trevgo
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In which case the only solution is to leave the single market and the reality is that is what the electorate voted.
How come the polls show 90% want to remain in it? They can't be that wrong.

You, however, can be.
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