|
||||||||
Guardian: EU agrees to push UK into Hard Brexit |
![]() |
| Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|
#351 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Devon
Posts: 47,995
|
Quote:
How come the polls show 90% want to remain in it? They can't be that wrong.
You, however, can be. |
|
|
|
|
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
|
|
|
#352 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 20,806
|
Quote:
How come the polls show 90% want to remain in it? They can't be that wrong.
You, however, can be. |
|
|
|
|
|
#353 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 51,606
|
Quote:
I don't think so.
The problem for the EU as I see it, is that can not get any consensus through the European parliament. They can't get 28 to agree on much of anything, so they just don't bother to try. Everybody has to conform to whatever is already there however bad it may be for many member states. |
|
|
|
|
|
#354 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 20,806
|
Quote:
For obvious reasons. A club or union with different rules for different members would quickly descend into chaos ie. everyone arguing for opt outs and exemptions and asking "If they don't have to obey that rule, why do we?".
The problem is the whole structure is an unwieldy mess that is impossible to reform. Everybody knows it needs reform even arch Europhiles, it is just too difficult to achieve it and so everybody has given up trying. It is a fundamentally flawed entity. |
|
|
|
|
|
#355 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Angel Grove
Posts: 2,924
|
Quote:
The problem is not opt outs, there are plenty of countries getting opt out on new legislation.
The problem is the whole structure is an unwieldy mess that is impossible to reform. Everybody knows it needs reform even arch Europhiles, it is just too difficult to achieve it and so everybody has given up trying. It is a fundamentally flawed entity. to speak with one voice |
|
|
|
|
|
#356 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 51,606
|
Quote:
The problem is not opt outs, there are plenty of countries getting opt out on new legislation.
The problem is the whole structure is an unwieldy mess that is impossible to reform. Everybody knows it needs reform even arch Europhiles, it is just too difficult to achieve it and so everybody has given up trying. It is a fundamentally flawed entity. |
|
|
|
|
|
#357 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 15,121
|
Quote:
Let's get on with it then.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#358 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
|
Quote:
So we are all agreed then an end to FMOP is a desirable piece of cake?
|
|
|
|
|
|
#359 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 15,121
|
Quote:
The alternative would simply be to let it break up and everyone go their own way. But we know that for 70 years before 1945, there were three major wars in Europe and the place was very chaotic with countries competing with each other and squaring up to each other. The break up of the EU mightn't necessarily be followed by war but we would probably see the emergence of blocs of like minded countries which would be risky stuff - we could see things like trade wars or embargos breaking out, particularly if our far right friends came to power in some countries.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#360 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 51,606
|
Quote:
The EU started life as a like-minded trading bloc. Where it has gone wrong is that it has become an ideologically driven political entity determined to unite all of Europe at any cost economically, politically but worst or all socially. Ordinary citizens and national leaderships are ignored or railroaded if they're views contradict the European establishment.
It stands to reason that some of these nationalist minded countries might decide they're not overly fond of some other countries in Europe and things could get very messy. By all means, the EU should be reformed though and made more accountable to the ordinary citizen. |
|
|
|
|
|
#361 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
|
Quote:
I saw that Damian Grammaticus on BBC News this morning, covering talks between the EU and David Davis.
It was remarkable how little the position of the UK was represented and how much EU rhetoric was repeated. Clearly, a solution will need to be found, but in the meantime, the EU are just taking a hard opening stance. This seems really obvious to me. |
|
|
|
|
|
#362 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 25,437
|
Quote:
So says you. A majority voted to leave the EU and remaining in the single market ignores the three main reasons for that, contributing to the EU, accepting EU laws and FoM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#363 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 20,806
|
Quote:
We can't just assume why people voted to leave the EU - it may have been for many different reasons. As long as we leave, we've respected the majority decision. Any deals we do with the EU after that can be reversed by successive governments if necessary.
Labour want the results of the negotiation to go to a second referendum, any deal that keeps FMOP is almost bound to be rejected by the electorate. |
|
|
|
|
|
#364 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
|
Quote:
We can conclude though that all the possible major reasons for a leave vote are fundamentally incompatible with remaining in the single market.
Labour want the results of the negotiation to go to a second referendum, any deal that keeps FMOP is almost bound to be rejected by the electorate. |
|
|
|
|
|
#365 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 20,806
|
Quote:
For most of the leave voters, but it only takes a few to swap sides and you're in the minority.
Once they see that in the deal, the media will turn the rhetoric up to maximum and the pitchforks will come out. |
|
|
|
|
|
#366 |
|
Inactive Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
|
Quote:
The point is, outside the EU our place in the world was falling. Inside the EU it didn't. So however bad it was for us inside the EU it was just as bad for others outside; for example the 1973 oil crisis was global.
There's a lot more than I've stated which yoy have either forgotten or never knew about but nice to see this: Quote:
So however bad it was for us inside the EU
|
|
|
|
|
|
#367 |
|
Inactive Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
|
Quote:
For most of the leave voters, but it only takes a few to swap sides and you're in the minority.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#368 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Central Belt
Posts: 12,277
|
Quote:
The EU started life as a like-minded trading bloc. Where it has gone wrong is that it has become an ideologically driven political entity determined to unite all of Europe at any cost economically, politically but worst or all socially. Ordinary citizens and national leaderships are ignored or railroaded if they're views contradict the European establishment.
The EU was only thought of by the EEC as something of an idea only at the tail end of the 1980's, not a full scale proposal way back in 1973, so to the Brexiteers the now EU was clearly not the intention all along the way they assume. |
|
|
|
|
|
#369 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Central Belt
Posts: 12,277
|
Quote:
So says you. A majority voted to leave the EU and remaining in the single market ignores the three main reasons for that, contributing to the EU, accepting EU laws and FoM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#370 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,746
|
Quote:
For most of the leave voters, but it only takes a few to swap sides and you're in the minority.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#371 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,746
|
Quote:
The EU the way it is now was not even on the agenda of the then EEC before the UK first joined the EEC in 1973 and at the time of the EEC in/out referendum in 1975.
The EU was only thought of by the EEC as something of an idea only at the tail end of the 1980's, not a full scale proposal way back in 1973, so to the Brexiteers the now EU was clearly not the intention all along the way they assume. |
|
|
|
|
|
#372 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 15,121
|
Quote:
There would be plenty who would agree with you and who would say it is in urgent need of reform at all levels and to be made more accountable to the people of Europe. But the alternative scenario of it breaking up and 28 countries going it alone would be an even worse scenario, particularly with the rise of nationalism and populism at the moment.
It stands to reason that some of these nationalist minded countries might decide they're not overly fond of some other countries in Europe and things could get very messy. By all means, the EU should be reformed though and made more accountable to the ordinary citizen. |
|
|
|
|
|
#373 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 51,606
|
Quote:
If only that were possible but the EU leadership have shown time and again they are not willing to listen to any voice, Government or electorate contrary to their agenda. At that point an institution becomes unreformable and those countries opposed to its agenda have a simple choice before them, accept or leave. Britain was the first to choose and chose leave.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#374 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 15,121
|
Quote:
Collapse of the EU and the Single Market would be much, much worse than anything that prevails at the moment. It's a vast continent of 500 million people and 24 different languages and cultures. It's obvious that a post-EU Europe would be an almighty mess with numerous vested interests pulling against each other.
I really don't know how it could be worse than it currently is. |
|
|
|
|
|
#375 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Angel Grove
Posts: 2,924
|
Quote:
The EU is already heading for collapse, 28 countries with different economies and levels of economic development being forced to follow the same economic plan using the same currency. Mass unemployment is endemic, growth anaemic a number of members are effectively bankrupt yet unable to follow a more suitable economic policy because of EU membership constraints.
I really don't know how it could be worse than it currently is. |
|
|
|
![]() |
|
All times are GMT. The time now is 20:06.



