Er, read the post it was in reply to.

Sorry who said the UK's economy was in decline?

We haven't "continued to decline". Our relative position in the world was 6th when we joined and 5th when you voted us out. No decline there.

Trade with the EU is growing, just not as fast as it is with non EU countries, which includes developing economies and places like the BRICs.

You mean like a horse coming 6th against the same horses, time after time, yet losing by ever increasing margins. Move away from the idea that world trading position is that important even though we're trillions in debt.

But not by abandoning out biggest, We are exploiting developing markets quite well from within the EU anyway. No-one can tell me how leaving helps with developing markets, what can we export more of to where once outside the EU.

Abandoning, does that mean we'll never trade with Europe again?

Er, yes, so what's the benefit in leaving?

Because the single market brings benefits and has costs. This has been gone over many times, you may think the benefits aren't worth the cost. But no-one has yet been able to point to anything we can export more of outside the EU to make up for inhibited trade to the EU. Waffling about imaginary trade deals is just hopeless. How do you know there's anything at all we could possibly export more of?

Read my posts again, I was talking about relative size, not absolute.

OK, so what country can we be more like if we leave the EU and how?

You can ignore Hammond's most recent prediction of an extra 122bn being added to debt if you prefer.

I can ignore it because it's unlikely to be true.

And I don't want to be more like another country.

We're trillions in debt because we are choosing to borrow. And, to cushion the economic shock of Brexit, we are INCREASING our rate of borrowing. Adding more debt on the national "credit card" will neither make us richer nor will it allow us to maintain our current standard of wealth. Were that the case then Greece would be the richest country in Europe.

Germany ran a budget deficit every year from 1969 to 2015, in fact it was the first country to breach Eurozone borrowing rules. Even the UK has a better borrowing record than that, much better. The UK will get back to surplus, when it suits the economy to do so.

You aren't very good with words are you? As I have patiently explained to you, UK trade with the EU HAS increased in volume, ( and monetary terms), but not UK/EU PORTION of the UK's total trade - which HAS declined, and THAT really does mean that its 'value' to the UK has reduced - and I would point out that a definition of 'value' is - the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something. In other words - 'value' is not merely a monetary factor.

. Er -I have - and it didn't do what you claimed it did - which is why | asked you to support your assertion , (for a change).

Er - you did, - "Because we'd dropped to 4th from 1st preceding that. It was only when we joined that the declining trend was halted- so perhaps you could now provide the statistics to support that.

You are demonstrating abject ignorance if you don't realise that both having another Parliament, and 'rule' making executive, (unelected) is not a Political association!!
Those entities which you quote are concerned with operating rules within their organisations - and do not endeavour to interfere with the 'governance' of the UK.
To claim that EU nations are Sovereign is the height of ignorance. No nation that has to incorporate legislation required to cater with 'ideas'[ dreamt up by an unelected cabal can be deemed to be 'sovereign'
Now, I'll ask yet again - why is it necessary to have another Parliament , or political union to derive economic growth from trade???

How do you think we racked up such a huge national debt ?? When was a UK government last able to run the country within it's raised revenue??

It's all very well claiming that the UK has the 4th/5th/6th or whatever economy ranking in the world - but a more realistic assessment is the GDP per capita ranking - and on that basis, we are 21st in the world. http://statisticstimes.com/economy/c...gdp-capita.php

And that is despite the so called advantage of being in the EU!!

UK governments, whether Tory Labour or a Coalition, have undoubtedly lost the ability to govern within its means - and the latest regime is no different - such that in or out of the EU, the UK will undoubtedly continue to add to it's overall debt.
One major reason for this of course, the millstone around all UK governments neck, is the servicing cost of our huge borrowed total - which is running at over £1 biiiion per WEEK!! Even saving our EU subsidy wouldn't put much of a dent in that amount - which is worsening year by year. Clearly this cannot be allowed to continue .....but there is no sign of addressing this ridiculous wastage of over £1 billion per week .
OK - so the deficit is apparently being reduced - but just eliminating the deficit will not solve the ever growing debt problem, of servicing this ridiculously high level of wasted resource.
It would appear somewhat stupid however, in view of our extreme financial situation, to continue to subsidise the EU, and to wastefully provide overseas aid, sometimes to countries richer than ourselves.
yes, we are morally obliged to help the more unfortunate nations - nut why not provide such aid by using British companies to build hospitals, schools etc -so that we can still be generous to the less fortunate, but aid our own economy in the process.

As has been pointed out to you countless times, we will be able to agree our own trading deals, with our own interests uppermost - unlike the current situation - and without requiring to be a member of an undemocratic political union, an actually have to increase our national debt in order to subsidise it.



'And the costs clearly outweigh the benefits wrt the taxpayer. Of course Businesses dealing with Europe benefit, as a result of the taxpayer paying the bill for tariff free access - yet those businesses which don't deal with the EU, ( the vast majority), get saddled with unnecessary regulations.

There is no benefit derived by the majority of the people from membership of the EU - which is why the referendum result was what it was. other than that most important of factors, of facilitating the taking of EU holidays.
You keep bleating on asininely , about what products could be more easily exported outside of the EU - and clearly the answer is MORE of ALL of them - because the 'market outside of the EU is much greater, as is the potential for the UK to make it's own preferential trade agreements.

So the EU isn't an association of free nations freely choosing to act together? Well, Juncker has called us 'deserters'.

I just read of the increase in homelessness in Ireland, of the deaths caused by cuts to it's health service, and more hardship. Ireland is short of cash, but still, every month, it pays money, with interest, to investors who bought bonds in Ireland's banks, because the EU ordered it to. Those investors, to give two typical examples, are Barclay's Wealth Management and the Rothschild family.
And Ireland is just one case of a country where to many the EU Charter will be a sick joke.

No, it doesn't. Nor does it mean there will magically be anywhere we can export more of anything to either.

I prefer to ignore all forecasts by economic 'experts. because they so rarely get it right.

Whose forecast do you prefer?

And what leads you to that conclusion? What do you think the deficit will be over the next few years and why.

You can distort the English language all you wish; to try and use it that way in that context is misleading, especially if you don't explicitly state "value to the UK".

It did.

Yes, the declining trend was in our position relative to other countries, not our absolute GDP; I've explained this twice now, do you not even understand the difference between relative and absolute?

See jmclaugh's post.