DS Forums

 
 

Guardian: EU agrees to push UK into Hard Brexit


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 24-11-2016, 00:36
andykn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
As has been pointed out to you countless times, we will be able to agree our own trading deals, with our own interests uppermost - unlike the current situation - and without requiring to be a member of an undemocratic political union, an actually have to increase our national debt in order to subsidise it.
But you've been repeatedly unable to show any specific benefit to the UK from being able to negotiate our own trad deals. No existing EU deal that can be improved on for the benefit of the UK nor any product or service we can export any more of to any country with the right deal,
'And the costs clearly outweigh the benefits wrt the taxpayer. Of course Businesses dealing with Europe benefit, as a result of the taxpayer paying the bill for tariff free access - yet those businesses which don't deal with the EU, ( the vast majority), get saddled with unnecessary regulations.
Name one "unnecessary regulation"
There is no benefit derived by the majority of the people from membership of the EU - which is why the referendum result was what it was. other than that most important of factors, of facilitating the taking of EU holidays.
You keep bleating on asininely , about what products could be more easily exported outside of the EU - and clearly the answer is MORE of ALL of them - because the 'market outside of the EU is much greater, as is the potential for the UK to make it's own preferential trade agreements.
How can we clearly export more of anything to anywhere than we do now? What agreement can we sign that will help us to export more of what to where?

It's that obvious yet you can't even name ONE!

Farcical.
andykn is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 24-11-2016, 00:41
andykn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
I just read of the increase in homelessness in Ireland, of the deaths caused by cuts to it's health service, and more hardship. Ireland is short of cash, but still, every month, it pays money, with interest, to investors who bought bonds in Ireland's banks, because the EU ordered it to.
You sure? Or just because defaulting on your debts when you are running large deficit and are totally reliant on external funding would be catastrophic?

How much would the health service have to be cut if the Irish Govt had defaulted and couldn't borrow any more money on the international bond markets?
andykn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 08:04
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
No, it doesn't. Nor does it mean there will magically be anywhere we can export more of anything to either.
I only asked one question and it's nice to see you've corrected your lie about abandoning.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 08:10
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
And what leads you to that conclusion? What do you think the deficit will be over the next few years and why.
Past performance, and to answer your second question, I don't know any more than you or any more than Hammond and he doesn't know anymore than me though he may no more than you. None of us know what's going to happen next week, let alone next month or next year, especially while they're fluffing around with Brexit.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 08:15
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
You sure? Or just because defaulting on your debts when you are running large deficit and are totally reliant on external funding would be catastrophic?

How much would the health service have to be cut if the Irish Govt had defaulted and couldn't borrow any more money on the international bond markets?
No matter how you care to dress it up, the amounts of money owed by the world's nations is a direct result of the lack of ability of the world's administrations.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 08:22
JDF
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Angel Grove
Posts: 2,924
The problem with been in or out of eu is we are damned if we do damned if we don't.
JDF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 08:36
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
The problem with been in or out of eu is we are damned if we do damned if we don't.
We're damned because, as Farage has said, this government isn't up to the job of handling Brexit.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 09:32
Thor_Noggsson
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 349
But not by abandoning out biggest, We are exploiting developing markets quite well from within the EU anyway. No-one can tell me how leaving helps with developing markets, what can we export more of to where once outside the EU.
I never said we should, I said we should focus more on the developing markets.
The point you seem to missing, or glossing over, is that the EU is simultaneously growing and declining and the two are interconnected. It's monetary value is growing but its share of world trade is declining. If this situation continues monetary growth will stall and slip into recession so it makes sense to loosen our links with the EU to avoid being pulled into recession.
That said, given the current legal uncertainties we are unlikely to be able loosen our ties with the EU very much and if the coice is hard brexit or no brexit we are staying because the former will never survive parliamentary scrutiny.
Thor_Noggsson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 09:43
alan29
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 20,483
We're damned because, as Farage has said, this government isn't up to the job of handling Brexit.
I think we will eventually just fall out of the EU at the end of the two years with nothing agreed.
God knows what will happen, but its what was voted for, so it must be right no matter what. Thats democracy, innit.
alan29 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 12:37
andykn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
I only asked one question and it's nice to see you've corrected your lie about abandoning.
The talk was of focus, keep up.
andykn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 12:40
andykn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
Past performance, and to answer your second question, I don't know any more than you or any more than Hammond and he doesn't know anymore than me though he may no more than you. None of us know what's going to happen next week, let alone next month or next year, especially while they're fluffing around with Brexit.
Knowledge isn't binary, it in't either we know for definite or we know nothing.

You know less than these people yet still you think they're wrong.
andykn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 12:43
andykn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
No matter how you care to dress it up, the amounts of money owed by the world's nations is a direct result of the lack of ability of the world's administrations.
Or the greed of those voting them in every time.
andykn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 12:51
davor
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 5,191
It seems like the politicians are trying so hard not to deliver Brexit. In the end, UK will remain in the EU as they don't seem to want to trigger the Article 50
davor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 12:55
andykn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
I never said we should, I said we should focus more on the developing markets.
The point you seem to missing, or glossing over, is that the EU is simultaneously growing and declining and the two are interconnected. It's monetary value is growing but its share of world trade is declining. If this situation continues monetary growth will stall and slip into recession
That's simply not true. Just because developing countries are developing says nothing about the state of the still growing EU and our still growing exports to it.
so it makes sense to loosen our links with the EU to avoid being pulled into recession.
That said, given the current legal uncertainties we are unlikely to be able loosen our ties with the EU very much and if the coice is hard brexit or no brexit we are staying because the former will never survive parliamentary scrutiny.
It's "loosening our ties" with our biggest export market by far that's the most likely thing that will pull us into recession.
andykn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 13:02
andykn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
It seems like the politicians are trying so hard not to deliver Brexit. In the end, UK will remain in the EU as they don't seem to want to trigger the Article 50
The gun is firmly pointed at the foot yet they don't want to pull the trigger, funny that.
andykn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 13:12
John146
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 8,259
[quote=andykn;84674245]The gun is firmly pointed at the foot yet they don't want to pull the trigger, funny that.[/QUOTE]

When 'we' are ready, then A50 will be activated, hopefully by March 2017...
John146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 13:24
Thor_Noggsson
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 349
That's simply not true. Just because developing countries are developing says nothing about the state of the still growing EU and our still growing exports to it.


It's "loosening our ties" with our biggest export market by far that's the most likely thing that will pull us into recession.
I'm afraid it is because if the EU continues to lose market share eventually it won't be doing enough external trade to maintain growth.

The key word was loosening, though I'm not sure what you think I meant.
Thor_Noggsson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 13:34
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
Knowledge isn't binary, it in't either we know for definite or we know nothing.

You know less than these people yet still you think they're wrong.
The problem with your last sentence is that we all see and experience and failures resulting from these failed and failing experts. Why else would we be in so much debt?
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 13:38
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
Or the greed of those voting them in every time.
Perhaps you could tell the people which bunch of politicians will deliver the goods.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 17:58
andykn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
Perhaps you could tell the people which bunch of politicians will deliver the goods.
Whoever you can persuade enough others to select.
andykn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 18:00
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
Whoever you can persuade enough others to select.
OK, got it, you don't have a clue.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 18:01
andykn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
The problem with your last sentence is that we all see and experience and failures resulting from these failed and failing experts. Why else would we be in so much debt?
Because we chose that path. We want those schools and hospitals and are prepared to borrow to buy them. Just as many people will borrow to buy a house or car.
andykn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 18:02
andykn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,482
OK, got it, you don't have a clue.
Er, you're the one asking how democracy works. You don't like the result, you do something about it, don't just expect everyone else to want what you do.
andykn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 18:09
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
Or the greed of those voting them in every time.
Perhaps you could tell the people which bunch of politicians will deliver the goods.
Er, you're the one asking how democracy works. You don't like the result, you do something about it, don't just expect everyone else to want what you do.
There, Andykins, I've reproduced the posts that led up to your preposterous answer. I never asked how democracy works, nor did I imply anything about how democracy works.

Off for a while to do something worthwhile.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2016, 19:07
Beanybun
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,744
The problem with your last sentence is that we all see and experience and failures resulting from these failed and failing experts. Why else would we be in so much debt?
And your solution is what; to hand the reigns to a bunch of dustmen, bar staff and old age pensioners (no offence intended to any of the above)?

If your answer is to smash worldwide parliamentary democracy (because dictatorships, military juntas Nigel Farrage and the Donald are and will be so much batter at handling trade deficits etc after all...), it must have been a very strange question...
Beanybun is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply




 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 23:25.