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Guardian: EU agrees to push UK into Hard Brexit |
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#701 |
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Any country which engages in FT with a group of countries that have formed an alliance is clearly 'part' of it - in as much that they all conduct free trade, to some extent, with each other. The difference is that some are not members of it, so are not involved in the 'governance' of the alliance.
Remain said a Brexit vote would create immediate economic problems for the UK....... But anywy, enough of your feeble diversions, Korea aren't "part of...a free trade zone that extends from Iceland to Turkey" because that's the customs union and Leave promised we would be in it. Quote:
People knew exactly what they were voting for - it is defined in the Lisbon Treaty. What isn't defined is the basis of continuing TRADE between the leaving country, and the EU - so it is just more nonsense from you when you claim that I, or anyone else voted with the expectation of obtaining a free trade agreement post Brexit - in fact I at least, have often claimed thai is unlikely. However, it doesn't take an Einstein to realise that Brexit means regaining our own legislative authority - and once again being able to look after our own affairs.
So you claim Brexit means things not in the official Leave campaign but not those things that were, right-oh.Quote:
You didn't HAVE, to have claimed it. Your silly argument was predicated on it. However, in choosing the UK to site their factories in the UK, instead of the many available alternatives, clearly wasn't the only factor.
The reason they sited factories here at all is to avoid the tariffs and import quotas that they were experiencing on Japanese made cars imported to Europe.Quote:
. And we may still might be ....... even if I do believe that to be unlikely...... but it could well be via lower than WTO tariffs. Rubbish, they spent money they didn't have and still are.Nonsense - their hardship was coupled to the stupid implementation of a common currency being shared by disparate economies...a very premature step towards federalisation. There are obviously additional factors in play - but the principal problem was that of the inappropriate common currency adoption. Quote:
Blair was a bigger idiot than Brown - at least Brown had the sense to refuse to adopt the euro - against the wishes of Blair. So, more pages of nothing.
Nah - you are the clueless one - as you keep demonstrating - for example, your following lie .............. No, you've come up with NOTHING specific. Again. The fact that you are patently abject at comprehension, which we have debated at great length in the past, enforces the fact that such an act would be pointless - you still wouldn't see sense even if the FACTS were supported by 100 pages. Unfortunately, you are way beyond redemption!! |
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#702 |
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And in fabulous Brexit denial you say that the currency dropping to it's lowest level against the dollar for 30 years immediately after the vote isn't an economic problem.
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But anywy, enough of your feeble diversions, Korea aren't "part of...a free trade zone that extends from Iceland to Turkey" because that's the customs union and Leave promised we would be in it.
Yep - just like Mexico - participating in this free trade , but without having to pay the extortionate price that the UK currently does.Quote:
So you claim Brexit means things not in the official Leave campaign but not those things that were, right-oh.
Brexit means Brexit -haven't you heard - but as the forum know - all, perhaps you could now tell all of us just what the post -Brexit UK/EU deal is going to be. Quote:
The reason they sited factories here at all is to avoid the tariffs and import quotas that they were experiencing on Japanese made cars imported to Europe.
Yet they had a significant number of countries to choose from - but chose the UK - which tells intelligent people that there were other factors in play, beside having tariff free access to the EU.Quote:
Rubbish, they spent money they didn't have and still are.
Nobody is denying that - but only idiots would fail to realise that they were further incapacitated to ameliorate their economic woes because they no-longer had control of the currency that they used.Quote:
So, more pages of nothing.
Well I suppose empty headed people may see it that way - but sensible people would probably be able to recognise the points made - even if they disagreed with them - and would endeavour to counter them with reasoned arguments rather than merely parroting their uninformed opinion.
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#703 |
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Well if it is, then it obviously also happened when we were a member of this 'fabulous' alliance of countries - and there is really, nothing fabulous about it whatsoever!!
Yep - just like Mexico - participating in this free trade , but without having to pay the extortionate price that the UK currently does. Quote:
Brexit means Brexit -haven't you heard - but as the forum know - all, perhaps you could now tell all of us just what the post -Brexit UK/EU deal is going to be.
Well, if it's what Leave promised we'll be part of the Customs Union.Quote:
Yet they had a significant number of countries to choose from - but chose the UK - which tells intelligent people that there were other factors in play, beside having tariff free access to the EU.
Yes, but without the tariff free access they wouldn't have bothered at all, they'd have just carried on making them in Japan.Quote:
Nobody is denying that - but only idiots would fail to realise that they were further incapacitated to ameliorate their economic woes because they no-longer had control of the currency that they used.
Only an idiot would think that devaluing a currency helps with much.Quote:
Well I suppose empty headed people may see it that way - but sensible people would probably be able to recognise the points made - even if they disagreed with them - and would endeavour to counter them with reasoned arguments rather than merely parroting their uninformed opinion.
You come up with a product or service we could export more of and to where and we can discuss it. But cars to Japan I'm afraid isn't one.
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#704 |
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No, not like Mexico. They have an FTA with but are not part of "a free trade zone that extends from Iceland to Turkey". We will be part of it, or at least that's what you were promised by the official Leave campaign.
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Well, if it's what Leave promised we'll be part of the Customs Union
.I certainly recall some Ministers blathering on about how perhaps membership of the customs union might be maintained for certain goods, but as I didn't have to follow the Official Leave campaign, I can only state that ANY tie up with the EU would be wrong, and stupid, because it clearly wouldn't be Brexit! And despite what you say, May made it clear that WE will be making our own trade deals in the future - which clearly wouldn't be possible if we were a member of the EU Customs Union. Quote:
Yes, but without the tariff free access they wouldn't have bothered at all, they'd have just carried on making them in Japan.
You are speculating again - BECAUSE it wasn't just tarff free trade. As I said, clearly that was a factor - but if you are right, then they will leave.Quote:
Only an idiot would think that devaluing a currency helps with much.
Only a bigger idiot would not realise that that is a 'tool' that sovereign governments have used to assist their economy.Quote:
You come up with a product or service we could export more of and to where and we can discuss it. But cars to Japan I'm afraid isn't one.
Common sense tells you that we would be able to sell MORE of everything we sell to the much.much larger market with reduced tariffs - so maybe YOU should perhaps indicate what UK products or services exports would be hampered by lower tariffs???
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#705 |
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Of course they are 'part' of it - just as the UK was part of the EU when the pound last hit that low value, but Mexico have exactly what the UK wants -merely free trade with it. Brexit means Brexit - but trade will continue - and free trade is beneficial to both sides.
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I certainly recall some Ministers blathering on about how perhaps membership of the customs union might be maintained for certain goods, but as I didn't have to follow the Official Leave campaign, I can only state that ANY tie up with the EU would be wrong, and stupid, because it clearly wouldn't be Brexit! And despite what you say, May made it clear that WE will be making our own trade deals in the future - which clearly wouldn't be possible if we were a member of the EU Customs Union.
Right, so you're saying the official Leave campaign didn't mean Brexit?Quote:
You are speculating again - BECAUSE it wasn't just tarff free trade. As I said, clearly that was a factor - but if you are right, then they will leave.
No, I'm not speculating, I remember the issues at the time quite clearly. And the Japanese built factories in the EU to avoid both tariffs and quotas.Quote:
Only a bigger idiot would not realise that that is a 'tool' that sovereign governments have used to assist their economy.
...recover. But ours only needs recovering because you voted to damage it.Quote:
Common sense tells you that we would be able to sell MORE of everything we sell to the much.much larger market with reduced tariffs - so maybe YOU should perhaps indicate what UK products or services exports would be hampered by lower tariffs???
Steel. Our steel industry is already suffering because the UK govt blocked higher steel tariffs.
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#706 |
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Really? There's "a free trade zone that extends from Iceland to Turkey" and Mexico are part of it?
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Right, so you're saying the official Leave campaign didn't mean Brexit?
Of course they did.Quote:
No, I'm not speculating, I remember the issues at the time quite clearly. And the Japanese built factories in the EU to avoid both tariffs and quotas.
You are being absolutely specualtive - because you have failed to support your claim. The UK was clearly selected for more than just it's membership of the EU, unless you can illustrate that the Japanese made their choice via a toss of a coin. Quote:
...recover. But ours only needs recovering because you voted to damage it.
The master bullshitter at it again - the initial downturn was forecast - because sensible people realise that uncertainty breeds lack of confidence - as does all the 'Remainers' crying and wailing and uttering dire forecasts - also as unsupported as your fatuous prognosticationsQuote:
Steel. Our steel industry is already suffering because the UK govt blocked higher steel tariffs.
Agreed - which was disgraceful - but, you are just doing your usual snake dance - and not answering the question - which was - YOU should perhaps indicate what UK products or services exports would be hampered by lower tariffs???The issue we were discussing was UK EXPORTS, which you appear to believe will not be assisted by reduced tariffs. |
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#707 |
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They certainly are! As are numerous other non-European countries too - because being a 'part of it', relates to the 'free-trade' practice.......not a geographical connection. The latter is fixed - the former isn't.
Of course they did. You are being absolutely specualtive - because you have failed to support your claim. The UK was clearly selected for more than just it's membership of the EU, unless you can illustrate that the Japanese made their choice via a toss of a coin. Quote:
The master bullshitter at it again - the initial downturn was forecast - because sensible people realise that uncertainty breeds lack of confidence - as does all the 'Remainers' crying and wailing and uttering dire forecasts - also as unsupported as your fatuous prognostications You're missing the point. What lower tariffs did you have in mind and what tariffs would we have to lower in return? I've already identified cars to Japan as one thing that won't benefit from lower tariffs.
Agreed - which was disgraceful - but, you are just doing your usual snake dance - and not answering the question - which was - YOU should perhaps indicate what UK products or services exports would be hampered by lower tariffs??? The issue we were discussing was UK EXPORTS, which you appear to believe will not be assisted by reduced tariffs. |
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#708 |
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"more than" maybe, but there only was a choice to make to avoid tariffs and quotas. With tariffs and quotas the Japanese wouldn't have bothered.
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You're missing the point. What lower tariffs did you have in mind and what tariffs would we have to lower in return? I've already identified cars to Japan as one thing that won't benefit from lower tariffs.
No I haven't - you are the one who is either constantly wriggling, or 'ignoring' the point And you haven't identified that lower car tariffs would have no effect whatsoever. You just don't seem to realise that expressing your opinion as 'fact'- is just arrogant nonsense. 'Lower tariffs' refers to lower- than -the -EU -Customs Union imposed tariffs on exports....what the hell else could it have meant????? |
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#709 |
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There is no 'maybe' about it - there undoubtedly are and were 'additional' factors which influenced their decision, despite the also undoubted prime reason being tariff free exports. However, the UK motoring industry is a huge global exporter - so unless it can be illustrated, (yeah I know - you don't duo that), that the UK will be unable to arrange compensating tariff -free deals in the much larger non-EU market, I suspect the Japanese will bide their time.
What you don't seem to understand is that whatever other factors exist, the reason the Japanese decided to have a factory outside Japan was to get inside the European tariff and quota wall. All the other factors around which EU country are secondary to that. Quote:
No I haven't - you are the one who is either constantly wriggling, or 'ignoring' the point And you haven't identified that lower car tariffs would have no effect whatsoever. You just don't seem to realise that expressing your opinion as 'fact'- is just arrogant nonsense. Er, it certainly can't have meant that as the EU don't impose tariffs on exports.
'Lower tariffs' refers to lower- than -the -EU -Customs Union imposed tariffs on exports....what the hell else could it have meant????? |
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#710 |
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But the Japanese can arrange their own tariff free deals in all the other markets, they don't need the UK to do that.
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What you don't seem to understand is that whatever other factors exist, the reason the Japanese decided to have a factory outside Japan was to get inside the European tariff and quota wall. All the other factors around which EU country are secondary to that.
And I would again repeat for the hard of hearing, that THAT was the main, but by no means the ONLY reason for selecting the UK - and UK global exports far outweigh exports to the EU, and consequentially, have a far greater scope for improved trading tariffs.Quote:
Er, it certainly can't have meant that as the EU don't impose tariffs on exports.
What the hell are you on about????? The EU IMPOSE export tariffs on ALL EU Customs Union members.......that is how customs unions work...... common export tariffs - and individual member stated prohibited from making trade agreements.
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#711 |
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And who is claiming that they cannot??? Totally irrelevant as usual from you - as is the fact that the Japanese are only one of MANY MORE non-EU countries - and you continue to conveniently ignore that the non-EU market to which the UK exports many cars is much greater than the EU market - with far more potential. That in itself, does of course not mean that Japanese factories could not locate to an EU country......or Turkey, just as the Ford Van assembly factory did - but there are more benefits available than just tariff free trade - but in any event, they might even do that when the post Brexit deal is agreed.
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And I would again repeat for the hard of hearing, that THAT was the main, but by no means the ONLY reason for selecting the UK - and UK global exports far outweigh exports to the EU, and consequentially, have a far greater scope for improved trading tariffs.
It may not have been the only reason for selecting the UK but it was the only reason for selecting the EU.Quote:
What the hell are you on about????? The EU IMPOSE export tariffs on ALL EU Customs Union members.......that is how customs unions work...... common export tariffs - and individual member stated prohibited from making trade agreements.
Er, link? I've never heard of any EU export tariffs.
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#712 |
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But the Japanese can export to those non EU markets (plural, as I've had to explain to you more than once) from Japan. A factory in the UK is no benefit at all to them for that. There's only one reason they built factories in the EU and that was to avoid the tariffs and quotas.
You continually, and fatuously, believe that the EU is be all and end all - but EU access will still be maintained, because they have several plants in the EU -and the UK imports and exports high volumes of cars - and that could be greatly improved via lower tariff agreements outside of the EU........and we still don't know the basis of ongoing trade!! Quote:
It may not have been the only reason for selecting the UK but it was the only reason for selecting the EU.
Not at all - they still have several manufacturing facilities IN the EU - and whilst the UK operations will clearly be hit - I doubt that they will rush into leaving. Quote:
Er, link? I've never heard of any EU export tariffs
.Strewth!!! It is a 'Customs Union' - requiring ALL member states to apply EU approved tariffs. It isn't a typical FTA, where members retain the power to trade with non-FTA members with tariffs that THEY, as individual states see fit. http://tprc.org.uk/pages/posts/custo...-origin-31.php ...... |
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#713 |
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The Japanese already do!! But the Japanese are also tending to build their cars in the areas which they expect to sell them........and expanding their overseas operations because of their high value yen currency- but as I say, the Japanese manufacture cars in many, many countries - including several in the EU. They like to manufacture near were they expect to sell.......and I guess they will still wish to keep their UK market too - don't you?
You continually, and fatuously, believe that the EU is be all and end all - but EU access will still be maintained, because they have several plants in the EU -and the UK exports a high volume of cars - and that could be greatly improved via lower tariff agreements. Rubbish - they still have several manufacturing facilities IN the EU - and whilst the UK operations will clearly be hit - I doubt that they will rush into leaving. . Quote:
Strewth!!! It is a 'Customs Union' - requiring ALL member states to apply EU approved tariffs. It isn't a typical FTA, where members retain the power to trade with non-FTA members with tariffs that THEY, as individual states see fit. I asked for an example of "EU -Customs Union imposed tariffs on exports."http://tprc.org.uk/pages/posts/custo...-origin-31.php ...... I'm still waiting. |
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#714 |
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It will be much 'harder' on the EU since they export much more to us than we export to them.
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#715 |
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It will be much 'harder' on the EU since they export much more to us than we export to them.
And we're more likely to continue importing than they are, we can't start our brave new world with high tariffs. |
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#716 |
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Slightly misleading headline : they're saying they would push Britain into a hard Brexit *if* the UK refuses to obey the rules of the Single Market or accept freedom of movement (the exact same rules the other 27 members, plus four others are already obeying).
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#717 |
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No, it won't. We are far less to each individual country than they are to us.
And we're more likely to continue importing than they are, we can't start our brave new world with high tariffs. |
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#718 |
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If the EU wants to trade with us after Brexit then that's fine but if we didn't have a trade deal with them it wouldn't bother me one bit. The whole 'EU trade' thing is being dressed up to be more important than it is by desperate remainers like Fallon for example, and Salmond in Scotland.
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#719 |
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It might not bother you, but the ongoing economic damage it would cause to the UK economy would bother quite a few people.
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#720 |
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Any 'damage' that might be done will be insignificant when compared with the damage that he been done to us over the last four decades. Damage to our international competitiveness,
Unless you mean you want us to be more like China. Quote:
damage done by poorly thought out EU directives, damage to our fishing industry and others etc etc.
There is no etc. Our fishing industry has not been damaged by the EU, the damage and decline had been occurring for a century and will not be reversed by leaving the EU.Quote:
Germany especially dreamed up all sorts of rules and regulations that would always give them an edge over other supposedly equal member states.
How? Or is this as correct as your fishing pipe dreams.
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#721 |
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Our exports are rising.
Unless you mean you want us to be more like China. There is no etc. Our fishing industry has not been damaged by the EU, the damage and decline had been occurring for a century and will not be reversed by leaving the EU. How? Or is this as correct as your fishing pipe dreams. Common Fisheries Policy Top UK ports (by value £m) Peterhead (78.9) Lochinver (34.7) Fraserburgh (27.9) Aberdeen (26.2) Scrabster (25.5) Newlyn (17.7) Milford Haven (17.1) Brixham (15.8) Mallaig (15.4) Lerwick (15.3) 1999 figures Hull (11.7) UK fishermen blame the Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) agreed in Brussels in 1983 for the root of their troubles. This set up a system of quotas for each member state to conserve depleting fish resources. It also established a coastal band around the shores of each country reserved for local fishermen. But those involved in the industry believe the system is poorly enforced and does not work, and they argue that millions of tonnes of fish have been thrown back in the sea, as a result of quota rules. They also point out that for years foreign vessels, especially from Spain, registered in Britain under "flags of convenience" to claim part of the annual quota. This led to bitter battles between British and Spanish fishermen in the 1990s, although the previous Conservative government under John Major put a stop to this so-called "quota hopping". http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1071781.stm |
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#722 |
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I can only repeat, they built their factories in the EU to overcome the tariff and quota walls. The UK exports a high volume of Japanese cars to the EU because we are in the EU. If there is any inhibition to that traffic the reason for making the cars here declines.
But, for your information - . In 2015, the UK trade DEFICIT in vehicles with EU hit a record £28.5 billion Today, your three top-selling cars are imported from EU UK motor vehicle exports outside the EU have grown 12% per year since 1998 https://www.smmt.co.uk/2016/01/best-...h-record-high/ I am not belittling the importance of the EU market for the UK - but figures suggest that it seems somewhat useful to the EU too don't you think? Quote:
I asked for an example of "EU -Customs Union imposed tariffs on exports." You are only 'waiting' because you certainly have great difficulty in understanding the English language. I would suggest that you take several courses in learning the English language....but , in the meantime, I shall give you a clue - The EU is a Customs Union, meaning individual members are not allowed to establish their own tariffs - in other words -ALL tariffs applied by EU members on trade with non-EU countries are established by the EU, and therefore imposed by the EU on individual member countries.
I'm still waiting. |
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#723 |
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Our fishing industry has not been damaged by the EU, the damage and decline had been occurring for a century and will not be reversed by leaving the EU. Yes, our fishing industry was far from being faultless prior to joining the EU - but it is simply asinine to claim that it hasn't worsened - nor caused redundancies in the EU fishing industry. http://www.thecommentator.com/articl...shing_industry |
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#724 |
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You often do repeat yourself - especially your unsupported claims. Yes, the UK does export a lot of cars - GLOBALLY - and our best individual customer is the USA, which has now overtaken China.
But, for your information - . In 2015, the UK trade DEFICIT in vehicles with EU hit a record £28.5 billion Today, your three top-selling cars are imported from EU UK motor vehicle exports outside the EU have grown 12% per year since 1998 https://www.smmt.co.uk/2016/01/best-...h-record-high/ I am not belittling the importance of the EU market for the UK - but figures suggest that it seems somewhat useful to the EU too don't you think? The Japanese can export cars to the rest of the world just as well from Japan as they can from an outside the single market UK. Quote:
You are only 'waiting' because you certainly have great difficulty in understanding the English language. I would suggest that you take several courses in learning the English language....but , in the meantime, I shall give you a clue - The EU is a Customs Union, meaning individual members are not allowed to establish their own tariffs - in other words -ALL tariffs applied by EU members on trade with non-EU countries are established by the EU, and therefore imposed by the EU on individual member countries.
I'm still waiting for an example of EU export tariffs. Your bluster doesn't replace that.
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#725 |
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I would have thought that even a a deranged Europhile such as yourself would at least have the honesty to admit the obvious downsides of UK's membership of the EU.
Yes, our fishing industry was far from being faultless prior to joining the EU - but it is simply asinine to claim that it hasn't worsened - nor caused redundancies in the EU fishing industry. http://www.thecommentator.com/articl...shing_industry |
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