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Guardian: EU agrees to push UK into Hard Brexit


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Old 20-11-2016, 13:38
Eurostar
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No,

The analogy would be more like if you're a golf ball manufacturer then you can only sell to that club by being a member and paying the membership fee and are then told that your prices for other golf clubs have to be approved by this 'super golf club'

Add to the fact that most members get in for free and your fee is subsidising theirs.
There is still no club which will let you be a member or associate member under different terms and conditions to every other member of the club. The other members would immediately ask 'How come that guy doesn't have to obey the same rules as the rest of us?'.
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Old 20-11-2016, 13:49
Mr_XcX
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There is still no club which will let you be a member or associate member under different terms and conditions to every other member of the club. The other members would immediately ask 'How come that guy doesn't have to obey the same rules as the rest of us?'.
I'd turn around and say since we're paying for your membership you really shouldn't complain.
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Old 20-11-2016, 13:54
Cheetah666
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I'd turn around and say since we're paying for your membership you really shouldn't complain.
If that's the attitude towards the smaller countries in Europe, then the quicker you go the better.
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Old 20-11-2016, 13:56
BrokenArrow
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Doing what? Telling us we can't have our cake and eat it? Bastards!

Why do so many leavers think we can have all the benefits of membership with none of the commitments?
But apparently Canada can !
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:12
lemoncurd
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And that's exactly why May HAS to say we're going for hard Brexit. Why does no one seem to understand this?

Anything else will weaken our position from the outset.
Well, then both the UK and EU are in complete agreement from the outset and there's nothing to negotiate. We can notify as per Lisbon article 50 and be extricated within a month. Relationships with the the EU will be the same as for any other country in the world.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:12
Eurostar
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I'd turn around and say since we're paying for your membership you really shouldn't complain.
What weakens the UK's hand is that they've leaving the club. If they were a new country who had never been a member and were seeking closer ties, they might be looked on favourably. A country who is walking away from the club and seeking to distance itself is automatically in a weaker position.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:15
Cheetah666
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Well, then both the UK and EU are in complete agreement from the outset and there's nothing to negotiate. We can notify as per Lisbon article 50 and be extricated within a month. Relationships with the the EU will be the same as for any other country in the world.
Article 50 negotiations will take more than a month. You have 40 odd years worth of shared assets and liabilities to divvy up, two borders with the EU which will need to be policed, UK citizens living in the EU and vice versa. That's what Article 50 negotiations are about, not the post-Brexit relationship.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:34
lemoncurd
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Article 50 negotiations will take more than a month. You have 40 odd years worth of shared assets and liabilities to divvy up, two borders with the EU which will need to be policed, UK citizens living in the EU and vice versa. That's what Article 50 negotiations are about, not the post-Brexit relationship.
What assets? Surely it will be a case of whatever is within the UK borders will be ours, anything that isn't won't? At the end of the month, all joint accounts will cease and all debts written off. Why complicate matters if it can speed up Brexit as the leavers would like?

Our only land border only needs a fence and the old watchtowers/soldiers putting back in place. Shouldn't take too long.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:38
Cheetah666
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What assets? Surely it will be a case of whatever is within the UK borders will be ours, anything that isn't won't? At the end of the month, all joint accounts will cease and all debts written off. Why complicate matters if it can speed up Brexit as the leavers would like?
All debts won't be written off after a month, you're already in la la land with that statement alone. Capital ownership also isn't as simple as physical location in this day and age. It could take up to two years or more to complete the Article 50 negotiations alone, and the trade negotiations won't start until after they're finished.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:39
Cheetah666
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What assets? Surely it will be a case of whatever is within the UK borders will be ours, anything that isn't won't? At the end of the month, all joint accounts will cease and all debts written off. Why complicate matters if it can speed up Brexit as the leavers would like?

Our only land border only needs a fence and the old watchtowers/soldiers putting back in place. Shouldn't take too long.
Your government has already ruled that out.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:42
allaorta
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What weakens the UK's hand is that they've leaving the club. If they were a new country who had never been a member and were seeking closer ties, they might be looked on favourably. A country who is walking away from the club and seeking to distance itself is automatically in a weaker position.
We won't be members of a club, full or associate. Why people keep painting these various scenarios is beyond me and every brexiter I know. It's yet another 'yeah but' by the relatively few Remants who feel the need to stoke a fire of discontent that only they can see because they're the only ones looking for it.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:43
lemoncurd
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All debts won't be written off after a month, you're already in la la land with that statement alone. Capital ownership also isn't as simple as physical location in this day and age. It could take up to two years or more to complete the Article 50 negotiations alone, and the trade negotiations won't start until after they're finished.
Can you give some specific examples of these assets and liabilities? Are these between the UK and EU or between the EU and other countries? EU external borrowing is in the noise floor compared to state borrowing.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:45
allaorta
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Article 50 negotiations will take more than a month. You have 40 odd years worth of shared assets and liabilities to divvy up, two borders with the EU which will need to be policed, UK citizens living in the EU and vice versa. That's what Article 50 negotiations are about, not the post-Brexit relationship.
If the not so common commonsense prevailed, most of that could be decided in a day providing preparations had been made.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:48
Eurostar
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We won't be members of a club, full or associate. Why people keep painting these various scenarios is beyond me and every brexiter I know. It's yet another 'yeah but' by the relatively few Remants who feel the need to stoke a fire of discontent that only they can see because they're the only ones looking for it.
If the UK plan is for a hard Brexit, then the basic premise of this thread and the Guardian article doesn't even apply. The EU can't 'push' Britain into something they would actually be looking for and would desire.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:51
aurichie
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The article clearly states

"“If you British are not prepared to compromise on free movement,"

We WILL compromise on it. We have no choice. Even some of the Brexiteers on DS now concede we will have free movement after "brexit" takes place.

There won't be a hard brexit. The UK government will NEVER be given authority by parliament to pursue such a wreckless and destructive path that will literally destroy us.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:53
allaorta
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If the UK plan is for a hard Brexit, then the basic premise of this thread and the Guardian article doesn't even apply. The EU can't 'push' Britain into something they would actually be looking for and would desire.
Aye, the BIB is another fondly used word.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:57
Eurostar
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Aye, the BIB is another fondly used word.
Well, isn't this the problem? The UK have revealed virtually nothing about their plans or intentions. Even when fellow governments ask them informally and off the record what they will be looking for, the reply is "All will be revealed in due course". Nobody has a clue what the UK intends doing.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:58
allaorta
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The article clearly states

"“If you British are not prepared to compromise on free movement,"

We WILL compromise on it. We have no choice. Even some of the Brexiteers on DS now concede we will have free movement after "brexit" takes place.

There won't be a hard brexit. The UK government will NEVER be given authority by parliament to pursue such a wreckless and destructive path that will literally destroy us.
Be prepared for more disappointment.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:58
Mr_XcX
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If that's the attitude towards the smaller countries in Europe, then the quicker you go the better.
Just a fact. We spend so much subsidising their countries and then they expect us to be happy and enjoy the "benefits" of all their unskilled workers. Sorry, but we have a right to leave and have no obligation to them. If they want our support then they have to give us a good deal or its bye Felicia.
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Old 20-11-2016, 14:59
Cheetah666
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Can you give some specific examples of these assets and liabilities? Are these between the UK and EU or between the EU and other countries? EU external borrowing is in the noise floor compared to state borrowing.
Example of shared asset - European Medicines Association

Example of shared liability - pension payments
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Old 20-11-2016, 15:01
Cheetah666
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Just a fact. We spend so much subsidising their countries and then they expect us to be happy and enjoy the "benefits" of all their unskilled workers. Sorry, but we have a right to leave and have no obligation to them. If they want our support then they have to give us a good deal or its bye Felicia.
The deal will be you either compromise on FoM and get a trade deal, or you don't and trade under WTO rules.
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Old 20-11-2016, 15:04
allaorta
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Well, isn't this the problem? The UK have revealed virtually nothing about their plans or intentions. Even when fellow governments ask them informally and off the record what they will be looking for, the reply is "All will be revealed in due course". Nobody has a clue what the UK intends doing.
They've told you what they won't do, among other things, they won't accept a FoM condition of the Single Market and there are enough Tory MPs who would even oppose the EU Single Market, FoM or no FoM. A clean break and a trade deal is the requirement.
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Old 20-11-2016, 15:05
MARTYM8
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There is still no club which will let you be a member or associate member under different terms and conditions to every other member of the club. The other members would immediately ask 'How come that guy doesn't have to obey the same rules as the rest of us?'.
I am a member of a gym chain which offers up to 8 different membership types with different access rights and costs.

Of course it's possible to tailor different arrangements - hence the opt outs Ireland the UK and Denmark have on Schengen etc and bar Ireland the euro. It's not impossible it already happens!
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Old 20-11-2016, 15:07
Cheetah666
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I am a member of a gym chain which offers up to 8 different membership types with different access rights and costs.

Of course it's possible to tailor different arrangements - hence the opt outs Ireland the UK and Denmark have on Schengen etc and bar Ireland the euro. It's not impossible it already happens!
Yes but that's for members of the club, not ex members.
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Old 20-11-2016, 15:15
John146
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The article clearly states

"“If you British are not prepared to compromise on free movement,"

We WILL compromise on it. We have no choice. Even some of the Brexiteers on DS now concede we will have free movement after "brexit" takes place.

There won't be a hard brexit. The UK government will NEVER be given authority by parliament to pursue such a wreckless and destructive path that will literally destroy us.



And, how do you know all this?, neither Ms May or any of her Brexit team have mentioned anything which we or the EU will accept during negotiations
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