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Guardian: EU agrees to push UK into Hard Brexit


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Old 20-11-2016, 17:12
allaorta
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Ah, am with you now.

I agree how strange it is that we have so many on here that are privy to Cabinet meetings.
I don't need to, I talk to the bin men most weeks, or the girl on the supermarket check-out.
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Old 20-11-2016, 17:20
aurichie
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[/b]

And, how do you know all this?, neither Ms May or any of her Brexit team have mentioned anything which we or the EU will accept during negotiations
It's really quite simple -

They either continue being the party supportive of business and enterprise, or they choose to abandon us and lose our financial support when it comes to fighting and winning future elections.

I am confident the Conservatives will stay true to their core beliefs and do the sensible thing in regards to the EU, single market and our place in it.
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Old 20-11-2016, 17:25
allaorta
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It's really quite simple -

They either continue being the party supportive of business and enterprise, or they choose to abandon us and lose our financial support when it comes to fighting and winning future elections.

I am confident the Conservatives will stay true to their core beliefs and do the sensible thing in regards to the EU, single market and our place in it.
So far, your favourite party hs handled Brexit apallingly and if they do what you think, it will be over a lot of dead bodies that won't just be those of Brexiters.
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Old 20-11-2016, 17:26
Cheetah666
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So far, your favourite party hs handled Brexit apallingly and if they do what you think, it will be over a lot of dead bodies that won't just be those of Brexiters.
What do you mean by that?
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Old 20-11-2016, 17:32
allaorta
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What do you mean by that?
It's not only Brexiters who would be offended.
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Old 20-11-2016, 17:35
aurichie
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So far, your favourite party hs handled Brexit apallingly and if they do what you think, it will be over a lot of dead bodies that won't just be those of Brexiters.
May is in a very difficult position dealing with the blue brexit fanatics on the backbenches who would love to bring her down if she betrays them (in their minds).

She at least needs to look tough and talk tough to try and appease them. She wants the fight with the courts, and I happen to believe she wants to lose those battles too. And she then wants cross-party MP's to make triggering article 50 incredibly difficult too, and of course inevitable battles with the Lords.

By having all those battles on her CV, she can then at least demonstrate by god did she fight for brexit. But the ultimate deal is really the best she could get with all the obstacles in her way.

So in summary, yes it looks a mess. But politically I can see why things are playing out the way they are.
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Old 20-11-2016, 17:47
BrokenArrow
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The article clearly states

"“If you British are not prepared to compromise on free movement,"

We WILL compromise on it. We have no choice. Even some of the Brexiteers on DS now concede we will have free movement after "brexit" takes place.

There won't be a hard brexit. The UK government will NEVER be given authority by parliament to pursue such a wreckless and destructive path that will literally destroy us.
They don't needs parliaments approval, they can go to general election, blame the remainers for not allowing the will of the people to be executed and get a mandate to strike down the high court ruling and go straight to A50 without parliament being involved.

Of course there will be civil strife in the process, but hey ho, you reap what you sow.
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Old 20-11-2016, 17:50
Cheetah666
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They don't needs parliaments approval, they can go to general election, blame the remainers for not allowing the will of the people to be executed and get a mandate to strike down the high court ruling and go straight to A50 without parliament being involved.

Of course there will be civil strife in the process, but hey ho, you reap what you sow.
You can't strike down a High Court ruling with an election. The only way to do that is to change the law and that would require...a vote in Parliament.
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Old 20-11-2016, 17:51
lemoncurd
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Example of shared asset - European Medicines Association

Example of shared liability - pension payments
The European Medicines Agency is an agency of the EU, not the UK government (so would remain with the rEU).

Pension payment - to whom? UK civil servants would be covered by the UK government. EU pensions would be covered by the EU. It's not hard to split.
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Old 20-11-2016, 17:55
Cheetah666
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The European Medicines Agency is an agency of the EU, not the UK government (so would remain with the rEU).

Pension payment - to whom? UK civil servants would be covered by the UK government. EU pensions would be covered by the EU. It's not hard to split.
No its not that simple. The EMA is located in London, so moving it and its 900 or staff would require planning, same with other EU agencies located in the UK. The EU is also not going to accept full liability for pensions of EU staff without a contribution from the UK. These things only seem simple to you because you're negotiating with yourself. The UK government negotiating with the EU won't be anywhere near as straightforward.
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Old 20-11-2016, 17:57
Beanybun
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You can't strike down a High Court ruling with an election. The only way to do that is to change the law and that would require...a vote in Parliament.
Quite.

I don't get what part of "Parliamentary democracy" Brexiters don't get, especially given it was, supposedly, the very reason they voted leave to start with...
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:06
Eurostar
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Quite.

I don't get what part of "Parliamentary democracy" Brexiters don't get, especially given it was, supposedly, the very reason they voted leave to start with...
No, in fact : it seems Brexiteers plus the populist right movements all over the place want direct democracy or "rule by the people". Things like high courts and parliaments are seen as being part of the Establishment ; they would rather a situation where "the will of the ordinary people" takes precedence over all other forms of power or authority.
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:07
allaorta
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You can't strike down a High Court ruling with an election. The only way to do that is to change the law and that would require...a vote in Parliament.
Quite.

I don't get what part of "Parliamentary democracy" Brexiters don't get, especially given it was, supposedly, the very reason they voted leave to start with...
I'm sure what was meant is that calling a general election to garner a larger Conservative majority would allow them to easily pass the necessary legislation to carry out Brexit in the way they want.
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:11
Cheetah666
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I'm sure what was meant is that calling a general election to garner a larger Conservative majority would allow them to easily pass the necessary legislation to carry out Brexit in the way they want.
No that's not what was meant - the poster specifically said that a general election would give them a mandate to enact Article 50 "without Parliament being involved." Obviously that poster doesn't realise that an election promising to commit contempt of court wouldn't stop the cabinet being arrested for it.
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:14
Blairdennon
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Quite.

I don't get what part of "Parliamentary democracy" Brexiters don't get, especially given it was, supposedly, the very reason they voted leave to start with...
The bit that is not got is that Parliamentary democracy is in relaity th esovereignty of the electorate. Parliamnet has no right to restrict or change the rights of the electorate without consulting the electorate. Which is exactly what they did in 1972.
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:15
andykn
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I would not expect the EU to give us any benefits of membership when we are not contributing anything to the EU, and, I suspect that many leavers also understand this to be the result of our leaving
Yet many still accuse the EU of daft things like bullying when the EU explain this.
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:20
John146
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Yet many still accuse the EU of daft things like bullying when the EU explain this.
I think that words like 'We make it hard as possible for the UK to leave the EU' (or words to that effect), are or maybe posturing by some members or spokesmen/women for countries in the EU
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:22
Cheetah666
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I think that words like 'We make it hard as possible for the UK to leave the EU' (or words to that effect), are or maybe posturing by some members or spokesmen/women for countries in the EU
Nobody in the EU has said that at all. Far from making it hard to leave, the EU keep saying hurry up and get on with it.
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:31
andykn
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The economy is too reliant on financial services. It's time things changed and the government look after all the UK. We're sick of London being catered for and the rest left behind.
And how do you expect that to happen?
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:33
andykn
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That isn't having your cake and eating it
Er, I never said it was. We get benefits and pay for them. Brexiters whine about a bullying EU when the EU point out that we can't have the benefits without paying for them.
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:36
andykn
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OK, so my understanding of what the most favoured nation rule means was correct.

I realised this some months before the referendum (I voted Brexit) but was surprised that I didn't hear Remain campaigners make this point. This was surprising because leading Brexiters were making the point that we could set the tariffs lower, which would make imported goods cheaper, which is true. Yet such a policy would put our exports at a competitive disadvantage to imports from the EU.
The trouble with setting tariffs cheaper is that they are there for a reason, so we have 10% on cars to protect our own car industry from cheap imports. And lowering tariffs will only make non EU imports cheaper, some EU imports will get more expensive.
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:37
Eurostar
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Nobody in the EU has said that at all. Far from making it hard to leave, the EU keep saying hurry up and get on with it.
Indeed, nobody in the EU is talking of delaying Brexit : if anything, they want the process speeded up.
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:38
andykn
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I think more people are more aware than ever before just how much the entire of society (the world even) revolves around 'money' and not for the masses actual benefit (versus perceived benefit). People are saying 'no' there must be another way.
What if there isn't?
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:39
John146
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Nobody in the EU has said that at all. Far from making it hard to leave, the EU keep saying hurry up and get on with it.
I did say 'Or words to that effect' Juncker:

Leave EU and we’ll make your lives a misery: Juncker’s warning to Britain

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/le...tain-7h2k90t8g
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Old 20-11-2016, 18:39
andykn
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Exactly.

It's all about GDP and Growth. More hamburgers sold than last year etc!! More, More, More...

Yet, they fail to realise it is only benefiting a small section of society. People have seen their real wage reduced over the last years to a starvation wage. Many cannot even afford their own homes / rents and living with their parents.

Globalism is not working, we're used to the same promises during each election. Brexit / Trump is a way to say, we want things changed and fast!!!
Changed to what? A world where the trade that benefits us all is reduced? How will that help?
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