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End of FTA French tv on 5W this week


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Old 28-11-2016, 02:03
2night
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hoi,

OCTAGON SF4008 4K UHD 2160P DVB-S2X
will be end 2016 in the shops

http://www.octagon-germany.eu/octago...-look-openatv/
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Old 28-11-2016, 07:56
martinwatkins
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Thanks 2night. In fact it's suggested that TF1 on 33 deg E is using a very minor variant of DVB-S2, with a FEC of something like 25/36, and that some very recent receivers have no trouble picking it up correctly. It's also suggested that other DVB-S2 receivers may well be capable IF they have a patch of some sort to enable 25/36 (or whatever it is).

I haven't tried with my TM5402 M3 yet, but will try and get a dish on 33 deg E during the week.....
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Old 28-11-2016, 10:39
pgnl
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Are they making them into pay channels??

Maybe rights issues (or to make rights costs cheaper by restricting coverage)??
I think you are correct as many of the channels on Fransat - I have a Metronic Fransat cam installed in my Samsung TV - have the 'VO' (version original) sound track and most programmes created in English can be switched to English. I have even seen this on some the France Televisions channels..

Patrick
N Worcs
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Old 28-11-2016, 12:52
marceljack
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Interesting. Thanks 2night.
I can find absolutely no commercially available receiver for DVB-S2X. Do they exist?
Hi,
It seems that at least one very recent 4k TV supports DVB-S2X after software update, according to a post on TVNT.net. No more precisions so far.
What is sure is that PC cards exist from TBS that support DVB-S2X (but not multistream):
-model TBS6222 (dual tuner, supports DVB-S, S2, S2X, T, T2, C, C2 and ISDB-T),
-model TBS6228 (single tuner, supports same standards).
The first costs 149€, the second 119€.

The UHD demo channel on Astra1 (11552H) now uses DVB-S2X since mid november.
http://fr.kingofsat.net/pos-19.2E.php

In fact contrarily to what I wrote on tvnt.net, the FEC is not the only difference but also the error correction algorithm differs, so it's not possible to receive these transmissions with a standard DVB-S2 receiver with only a firmware update.
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Old 28-11-2016, 12:54
Marti S
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Thanks 2night. In fact it's suggested that TF1 on 33 deg E is using a very minor variant of DVB-S2, with a FEC of something like 25/36, and that some very recent receivers have no trouble picking it up correctly. It's also suggested that other DVB-S2 receivers may well be capable IF they have a patch of some sort to enable 25/36 (or whatever it is).

I haven't tried with my TM5402 M3 yet, but will try and get a dish on 33 deg E during the week.....
I had a check earlier with my TM5402 M3 and got no lock on it so dosent look like it will get them.
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Old 28-11-2016, 20:20
martinwatkins
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Marti S - thanks.

Probably best to let the dust settle a bit and prices to come down on all this modern gear.....
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Old 11-12-2016, 10:48
38629467
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To add insult to injury it appears that TF1 on 9 deg E is also a casualty of the French craze with suppressing free to air. The M6 stable of channels is still there on 12.034 GHz but TF1 and sister stations TMC etc have left.

This is starting to get a little irritating.....
Oh no! I can't believe this has happened. Thank goodness I hadn't gone ahead with my plan to get the remaining FTA channels (that would be left after 2, 3, 4, 5 and O had disappeared) from 9E (http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2183744). I had been planning to buy the Wave Toroidal dish and all the LNBs, but got really busy and didn't bother. Finally being lazy has paid off!
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Old 11-12-2016, 11:37
martinwatkins
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Well at least you didn't flash the cash! It is very sad indeed that France no longer has a full international FTA voice (at least not one of great quality that reflects what the French are actually *watching*). I know that there are things like news channels and TV Monde 5 but they're not the same as having the domestic channels.
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Old 11-12-2016, 13:15
38629467
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Deleted, I will make a new thread.
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Old 11-12-2016, 18:56
machare
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To add insult to injury it appears that TF1 on 9 deg E is also a casualty of the French craze with suppressing free to air. The M6 stable of channels is still there on 12.034 GHz but TF1 and sister stations TMC etc have left.

This is starting to get a little irritating.....
I do share your frustration!

I am now wondering if I can get a TNT card to work in my ET9000 Linux receiver, or whether it would make sense to try and buy a TNT receiver in Annecy which I will pass through in a few days time.
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Old 11-12-2016, 23:18
machare
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This year has had positives and negatives for FTA French TV on satellite. While it's a shame that these FTA DVB-S/DVB-S2 feeds have disappeared, we've gained all 6 TNT multiplexes as FTA multistream.

I've been able to move away from using a TNT Sat at all and now just use the multistreams via my PC with TBS satellite card running TVHeadend. They can then be watched on the various Raspberry Pis and Wetek Plays round my house running Kodi.
Please could you be more specific as to where you receive these streams from. i.e. what satellite, frequency etc?

Also exactly which TBS card do you have?

I am wondering if DVBViewer can do the same as TVHeadend.
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Old 12-12-2016, 08:32
martinwatkins
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I know I'm not Adam but the freqs in quesion are on 5W

11509 MHz H 12648 MHz V

http://www.lyngsat.com/Eutelsat-5-West-A.html

They manage - using a technique called multistream which grew out of Newtec - to squeeze much more capacity out of a frequency whilst rendering it invisible to anything other than specialised receivers and the receiver cards mentioned. These "professional" feeds are used to bring the channels to the terrestrial TV network transmitters so that they can be broadcast on UHF to the general public. They aren't actually scrambled (other than the Canal + channels) but don't need to be because so few people can get them.

It's a route I'd like to take but my computer skills and patience simply aren't up to it, so I'm waiting for another solution.... In the meantime I have both Fransat and TNTsat, but it irks me more than I can say that I am no longer able to receive the main channels FTA on my Technomate 5402M3, particularly as I pay the French redevance and am damned if I'm going to have some oh-so-precious-rights-holder telling me what I can and can't watch in Britain when I have already paid for it in France!
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Old 17-12-2016, 07:56
marceljack
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I know I'm not Adam but the freqs in question are on 5W

11509 MHz H 12648 MHz V

http://www.lyngsat.com/Eutelsat-5-West-A.html

They manage - using a technique called multistream which grew out of Newtec - to squeeze much more capacity out of a frequency whilst rendering it invisible to anything other than specialised receivers and the receiver cards mentioned. These "professional" feeds are used to bring the channels to the terrestrial TV network transmitters so that they can be broadcast on UHF to the general public. They aren't actually scrambled (other than the Canal + channels) but don't need to be because so few people can get them.
In fact this technique does not bring more capacity by itself (it's only the use of a FEC of 8/9 which brings it in the case of these two transponders) but it allows to share the total bandwidth of a transponder between many independant streams.
In the case of french TNT channels, each of these two transponders transport 3 of the 6 TNT multiplexes exactly in the form they will be rebroadcast by terrestrial transmitters. This has the advantage of simplifying the processing at the transmitter (sometimes very small ones) as they do not have to demultiplex/remultiplex but only to demodulate the DVB-S2 streams and remodulate them in DVB-T.

Another more recent variant of DVB-S2 is called DVB-S2X: this one allows an increase of capacity of about 10% in equal receiving conditions by use of a smaller roll-of factor, a finer granularity of the FEC ratios and more performant error correction algorithms.
To day it is used by the channels of the TF1 group broadcast in the clear on 33°E.
There is another card of TBS which allows to demodulate DVB-S2X but unfortunetely it does not support multistream.

These two techniques (DVB-S2X and multistream) can be combined and of course they will be combined sooner or later to optimise capacity and most probably TBS will offer a card which will allow to receive DVB-S2X multistream.
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Old 20-12-2016, 20:12
Adam792
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Please could you be more specific as to where you receive these streams from. i.e. what satellite, frequency etc?

Also exactly which TBS card do you have?

I am wondering if DVBViewer can do the same as TVHeadend.
The card I use is the four tuner TBS6905. Has been a decent card for me for around 18 months now!

As Martin has said, the frequencies are 11509H (MIS1, MIS4 and MIS6) and 12648V (MIS1, MIS2 and MIS3), on 5W. Due to the high FEC in 8PSK (8/9) I need an 80cm dish to keep them locked here in the Midlands. On a 60cm they break up even in good weather.

I know I'm not Adam but the freqs in quesion are on 5W

11509 MHz H 12648 MHz V

http://www.lyngsat.com/Eutelsat-5-West-A.html

They manage - using a technique called multistream which grew out of Newtec - to squeeze much more capacity out of a frequency whilst rendering it invisible to anything other than specialised receivers and the receiver cards mentioned. These "professional" feeds are used to bring the channels to the terrestrial TV network transmitters so that they can be broadcast on UHF to the general public. They aren't actually scrambled (other than the Canal + channels) but don't need to be because so few people can get them.

It's a route I'd like to take but my computer skills and patience simply aren't up to it, so I'm waiting for another solution.... In the meantime I have both Fransat and TNTsat, but it irks me more than I can say that I am no longer able to receive the main channels FTA on my Technomate 5402M3, particularly as I pay the French redevance and am damned if I'm going to have some oh-so-precious-rights-holder telling me what I can and can't watch in Britain when I have already paid for it in France!
It's not actually too difficult. If I get some time in the new year I'll write a set-up guide!

I've found with Linux that the best way for me has always been to start from a fresh install as then it's less confusing to narrow down when things go wrong!
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Old 21-12-2016, 15:02
martinwatkins
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Well Adam792 what you are offering (set up guide) seems beyond the call of duty but if you were prepared to do so it would give me the confidence to splash out on the card.....

Have a good Christmas in the meantime!
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Old 30-12-2016, 17:39
Adam792
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Here's my setup guide to getting any of the multistream capable TBS cards (I use the TBS6905 and that works) working under Ubuntu. I use Ubuntu 16.04 Xenial -

1. Install Ubuntu to your PC in the normal way (either create a USB key or a disk).
2. Once you're up and running the next step is to get the TBS tuner cards recognised by the operating system. You need a specific set of the open source drivers for this as for some reason the regular open source ones and the official ones from TBS do not support multistream properly.

a) First we need to make sure the system is all up to date. Open up terminal and run -

Code:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get upgrade
sudo reboot
b) When the system comes back up, it's a good idea to tidy up after ourselves (to get rid of any old packages that are obsolete since updating)! So go into terminal again and type -

Code:
sudo apt-get autoremove
Run that again until it says there was '0 packages to remove' (or something similar)

c) Now the next step is to install a few packages that we'll need to compile and install the drivers (without them the process will fail and you end up trawling through error messages for hours, which isn't fun.)

Code:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install git kernel-package linux-headers-`uname -r` gcc libproc-processtable-perl libdigest-sha-perl patch patchutils
d) Next step is to actually download, compile and install the drivers. The instructions are on the wiki of the driver repository we'll be using - https://github.com/tbsdtv/linux_media/wiki

But, I'll write the commands you need to put into the terminal here too -

Code:
git clone https://github.com/tbsdtv/media_build.git
git clone --depth=1 https://github.com/tbsdtv/linux_media.git -b latest ./media
cd media_build
sudo make dir DIR=../media
sudo make distclean
sudo make -j4
sudo make install
Finally we need to reboot again for the drivers to take effect -

Code:
sudo reboot
e) When the system comes back up, we need to check that the drivers installed successfully and Linux is recognising the tuners. In the terminal -

Code:
dmesg | grep dvb
This command shows the log of things that ran and configured as the system started up. The second part then filters this to only show lines containing 'dvb'. It should come back with a load of messages, some of which should look a bit like this -

Code:
[    1.842469] dvbdev: DVB: registering new adapter (SAA716x dvb adapter)
[    1.842884] dvbdev: DVB: registering new adapter (TBSECP3 DVB Adapter)
[    2.022635] dvbdev: DVB: registering new adapter (SAA716x dvb adapter)
[    2.035544] dvbdev: DVB: registering new adapter (TBSECP3 DVB Adapter)
[    2.156014] dvbdev: DVB: registering new adapter (TBSECP3 DVB Adapter)
[    2.303302] dvbdev: DVB: registering new adapter (TBSECP3 DVB Adapter)
There's a message for each tuner (I have six there because I have a DVB-S2 TBS6905 with four tuners and a DVB-T2 TBS 6982 card with 2 tuners).

3. Now the drivers are all installed, we can tune the channels in. You can use whatever software you want for this, but I use TVHeadend as it's a decent piece of backend software, and I use it to feed a couple of Kodi boxes round the house.

I can go into getting TVHeadend set up if anyone is interested as well!
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Old 31-12-2016, 09:16
martinwatkins
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That's a very helpful start Adam792. I'll get a card ordered in the New Year, I do have someone in the village who is good with Linux and with the help of your notes I suspect that between us we could get it going. Give me a few days though....

Very much appreciated, you've put a lot of work into that. I would dearly like to get it working so this is the spur I need.

Cheers, and Happy New Year.
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Old 31-12-2016, 11:15
martinwatkins
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I see that the 6982 has been discontinued. Given that at over 200 quid I don't really need the four tuner job, does anyone know whether the 6902 does the same job as the 6982 that Adam mentions? It's billed as being the replacement for the 6982 but before I part with 99.99 it would be good to know that it's the right thing.
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Old 01-01-2017, 21:22
marceljack
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Here's my setup guide to getting any of the multistream capable TBS cards (I use the TBS6905 and that works) .
Hi Adam,
Thanks for these indications and happy new year !

According to the description of TBS, support of multistream is not mentioned for the TBS6905 (nor for the 6902).
http://www.tbsdtv.com/products/tbs69...pcie-card.html
http://www.tbsdtv.com/products/tbs69...pcie-card.html

According to their site, the only ones which supports it explicitely is the TBS5925 /6925:
http://www.tbsdtv.com/products/tbs59...tuner-usb.html
http://shop.tbsdtv.com/tbs-6925-pcie...card-p-32.html

Do you know which TBS single or dual tuner cards support multistream even if it's not mentioned in their spec ?
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Old 01-01-2017, 22:47
Adam792
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I see that the 6982 has been discontinued. Given that at over 200 quid I don't really need the four tuner job, does anyone know whether the 6902 does the same job as the 6982 that Adam mentions? It's billed as being the replacement for the 6982 but before I part with 99.99 it would be good to know that it's the right thing.
Hi Adam,
Thanks for these indications and happy new year !

According to the description of TBS, support of multistream is not mentioned for the TBS6905 (nor for the 6902).
http://www.tbsdtv.com/products/tbs69...pcie-card.html
http://www.tbsdtv.com/products/tbs69...pcie-card.html

According to their site, the only ones which supports it explicitely is the TBS5925 /6925:
http://www.tbsdtv.com/products/tbs59...tuner-usb.html
http://shop.tbsdtv.com/tbs-6925-pcie...card-p-32.html

Do you know which TBS single or dual tuner cards support multistream even if it's not mentioned in their spec ?
No problem for sorting the guide out! Happy New Year to you both.

On that page for the TBS6905, it's mentioned as "Multi Input Stream support".

I got it wrong when I mentioned the 6982 sorry - I actually have the TBS6281 which is a terrestrial card. The 6905 is my only satellite one.

The 6902 doesn't support multistream. The 6903 does though (they usually list them as "professional" on the TBS website, but they didn't for the 6905 for some reason).

TBS6905, TBS6908, TBS6983 and TBS6903 are all cards that support it. The USB TBS5925 and TBS5927 do too.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:38
martinwatkins
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Hmmm - but thank you Adam792. I'll go and look in the piggy bank, it's a bit more than I was hoping (although I realise that four tuners isn't going to be cheap). Will need a few days to think about it but in the meantime renewed thanks!
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Old 03-01-2017, 20:31
Adam792
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No problem!

The 6903 and 6983 are the two tuner versions but only seem to be around £20 cheaper than the 6905 from what I can see.

They all work with multistream though. My TBS6905 locks all the French and Italian services on 5W perfectly; nice and stable in the worst weather I've seen so far (pretty heavy rain) since I've been watching them, on my bog standard 80cm dish. In normal conditions I get ~15dB SNR on both of the TNT transponders.
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