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Richmond Park by-election
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Annsyre
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by jjwales:
“What about all the Leavers you don't know? As has been said elsewhere, people tend to mix in social circles with similar views.”

People might mix in similar social circles but that does not mean that everyone in those circles holds the same opinions. It certainly doesn't happen in the social groups that I mix in or even in my immediate and extended family. We don't all think the same or vote the same.
Jayceef1
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by jjwales:
“What about all the Leavers you don't know? As has been said elsewhere, people tend to mix in social circles with similar views.”

My experience is not within a social circle in the typical sense. It is a cross section of work colleagues ( and I work in a national role so not in an isolated office environment) friends, relatives, and acquaintances down the pub which is very working class. Yes I know it's not scientific but amongst that cross section you would expect some soft leavers.
jjwales
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Jayceef1:
“My experience is not within a social circle in the typical sense. It is a cross section of work colleagues ( and I work in a national role so not in an isolated office environment) friends, relatives, and acquaintances down the pub which is very working class. Yes I know it's not scientific but amongst that cross section you would expect some soft leavers.”

Nevertheless it's a very small sample out of 17m Leavers.
burneside
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by MARTYM8:
“Being in London and working in an office full of right on white middle class young people who thought the world had ended on 24 June you would think no one voted leave. There are some leavers but we just discuss it in quiet corners or just laugh about it when they have left work early to hang out in some new bar for similar bright young things in Shoreditch. But I am off to a Christmas lunch event in Essex next week which is leave central - totally different in so many ways.

I certainly find the company of the latter more entertaining though - as they don't live in a bubble!

Asking people you know won't tell you what the country thinks - our collective vote on 23 June did that.”

It was the same in my media-luvvie workplace, us Brexiters revelled in their dismay and despair, and still do.
Union Jock
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Jayceef1:
“That was not the point it was about whether leavers want a hard or soft brexit. So amongst the leavers there should be a few who want a soft brexit. No one I know does.”

Same here and I've yet to hear anyone in the QT audience say they want a soft one either.
Eurostar
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Union Jock:
“Same here and I've yet to hear anyone in the QT audience say they want a soft one either.”

I was surprised at how hardline the QT audience were on quitting the Single Market the other evening. Perhaps there is a working class / middle class divide going on here?
jjwales
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by burneside:
“It was the same in my media-luvvie workplace, us Brexiters revelled in their dismay and despair, and still do.”

How unpleasant.
smudges dad
03-12-2016
There are only 4 leavers I know personally who admit it.
1. Very left wing, opposes EU on principle because it is a capitalist tool of bankers and was used to destroy socialism in Greece
2. Solicitor, on the grounds of sovereignty, but had no answers to how we have improved democracy as we still have an unelected HoL and lose the elected MEPs
3&4. Married couple, low income plus disability benefits. Hate Farage and UKIP with a vengeance but see the EU as costing too much and want the money to be spent in the UK instead.
SULLA
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Resonance:
“It won't make any difference imo. If the government lose their case A50 will be voted through by a big margin (similar to the vote for the referendum act).

I actually think her saying she'll vote down A50 without batting an eyelid will be bad for Lib Dems in the long run. Openly saying you want to ignore the result of a referendum doesn't play well with most voters, whichever side of the EU argument they're from. Most people support democracy.”

and Richmond will come to it's senses in 2020
LostFool
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Union Jock:
“Same here and I've yet to hear anyone in the QT audience say they want a soft one either.”

I dont think you'll find many people in Wakefield admitting to wanting anything "soft".
Union Jock
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by LostFool:
“I dont think you'll find many people in Wakefield admitting to wanting anything "soft".”

Not just Wakefield but any edition of QT where the subject has come up.
Ash_M1
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by jmclaugh:
“Which is all very well but ignores the fact a 'soft' Brexit means the UK still has to accept FoM, EU rules and pay into the EU coffers. I struggle to believe that is what people envisaged when they voted to leave the EU which is why both sides in the campaign saw leaving the EU as also leaving the single market.”

When you voted Leave, did you vote to become poorer, to potentially put your job and livelihood and future prosperity at risk?

Any Remainers notice that Brexiteers are so desperate not to mention that they voted Out because they are anti 'the other'.

I travel a lot on the buses. The number of times I hear Leavers go, 'I'm not racist, but...we've got to many over here'. Now, that smells like racism to me lock, stock and barrel. Admittedly this comes from the over 50s.
koantemplation
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Ash_M1:
“When you voted Leave, did you vote to become poorer, to potentially put your job and livelihood and future prosperity at risk?

Any Remainers notice that Brexiteers are so desperate not to mention that they voted Out because they are anti 'the other'.

I travel a lot on the buses. The number of times I hear Leavers go, 'I'm not racist, but...we've got to many over here'. Now, that smells like racism to me lock, stock and barrel. Admittedly this comes from the over 50s.”

Loads of us admit we are anti immigration and want it at any cost.

And being anti immigration is not being anti 'the other'.

It is about understanding that this is an Island with a finite space and that we can not keep on increasing the population by allowing more people into the country than we can cope with.
Ash_M1
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by burneside:
“As the Leave vote prevailed, what the Remoaners want is neither here nor there now, or shouldn't be.”

...and this is where the Brexit Brigade are going wrong. Bad attitude. No way to heal wounds. Us Remainers make up nearly half the population. It is our country too. Our voices MUST be heard and listened too. What we want must be taken into consideration. Any deal which doesn't satisfy nearly 100% of the population is not an acceptable deal. If May only wants to govern for the 52% then she won't be in power long. We need a govt who is going to govern in the best interests of all of us. No hard Brexit. Not in my name.
Ash_M1
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Jayceef1:
“I know that, as I have already said. I accept the result of the vote in Richmond because it was won under the terms of the vote. Whether she won by 1800 votes or one.

It is the hypocrisy of the remainers who can't accept the result of the refernedum vote that was won under the terms of the vote. Again no matter if it was a margin of 17.4 million or one. One apparently is not a mandate because a margin of 4% is not enough, whereas the other with a margin of 4% is clear mandate to prevent the outcome of the former

It is irrelevant whether one can be reversed or not because everyone knew what each vote meant (apart from you and a few others apparently).”

...and presumably you understand the notion that the results of by-election/general elections are not permanent unlike the 'leaving the EU'?

It is absolutely relevant for very clear and obvious reasons. You may want to wilfully set the UK on a path of destruction and decline, the majority of us don't. Brexiteers need to behave responsibly.

I knew perfectly well what was at stake which is why I voted Remain without question.
Ash_M1
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Jayceef1:
“It's not what she said but the answers that your beloved Olney gave, or rather didn't. She certainly isn't leader material that's for sure.”

Did you not watch her acceptance speech on Thursday? I am not interested in that right-winger Brewer you had a blatant agenda going on.
andykn
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by burneside:
“As the Leave vote prevailed, what the Remoaners want is neither here nor there now, or shouldn't be.”

Er, democracy doesn't work that way. The leavers don't get to decide all on their own how much damage they get to do to the economy.
Ash_M1
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by burneside:
“I would take whatever Farron says with a very large pinch of salt. He has no credibility.”

So the 23,000 former tory majority...non of them were soft Leavers? I think Farron is probably right in his assessment. You need to listen to Tim. The people of Richmond don't want a Hard Brexit. This is a shot across the Tory boughs, May and her three Brexiteers.
Blairdennon
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Ash_M1:
“...and this is where the Brexit Brigade are going wrong. Bad attitude. No way to heal wounds. Us Remainers make up nearly half the population. It is our country too. Our voices MUST be heard and listened too. What we want must be taken into consideration. Any deal which doesn't satisfy nearly 100% of the population is not an acceptable deal. If May only wants to govern for the 52% then she won't be in power long. We need a govt who is going to govern in the best interests of all of us. No hard Brexit. Not in my name.”

FOM does not satisfy nearly 100% of the population we still have it, the EU telling us what to do and making our laws does not satisfy nearly 100% of the population it is still happening, it is still promoted as a way forward. Democracy does not mean compromise in a situation where compromise is impossible, nor does it mean that the best interests of everyone is considered. It means that what to do is decided in majority terms after much discussion and then everyone joins in and works to that end. If you wish to rejoin the EU or be beholding to the EU do what UKIP did and form a party and work in a democratic way for us to join. That never happened in the first instance and perhaps if it had we would not now be in disagreement.
Ash_M1
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Union Jock:
“Same here and I've yet to hear anyone in the QT audience say they want a soft one either.”

Well the Tory Leaver who caused next week's by-election certainly does. I am quite sure there are lots of leavers in the QT audience who are soft Outters.
Ash_M1
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Blairdennon:
“FOM does not satisfy nearly 100% of the population we still have it, the EU telling us what to do and making our laws does not satisfy nearly 100% of the population it is still happening, it is still promoted as a way forward. Democracy does not mean compromise in a situation where compromise is impossible, nor does it mean that the best interests of everyone is considered. It means that what to do is decided in majority terms after much discussion and then everyone joins in and works to that end. If you wish to rejoin the EU or be beholding to the EU do what UKIP did and form a party and work in a democratic way for us to join. That never happened in the first instance and perhaps if it had we would not now be in disagreement.”

Then you don't believe in democracy at all. You describe a dictatorship. Is this what Brexit Britain looks like?

Listen, the vote share dictates that a sensible compromise is required. It won't appease hard-liners but frankly, it's to bad. There is no mandate for Hard Brexit. We need to stay in the single-market with full access and all the benefits.
burneside
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Ash_M1:
“So the 23,000 former tory majority...non of them were soft Leavers? I think Farron is probably right in his assessment. You need to listen to Tim. The people of Richmond don't want a Hard Brexit. This is a shot across the Tory boughs, May and her three Brexiteers.”

I've heard way too much claptrap come from Farron's mouth. He refuses to accept the democratic decision that was made on June 23rd and wants to overturn Brexit, he is the enemy as far as I am concerned. Equally I don't give a damn what the people of Richmond think, they were massively anti-Brexit before the by-election so nothing has changed, it's just confirmed what we already knew.
Eurostar
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by koantemplation:
“Loads of us admit we are anti immigration and want it at any cost.

And being anti immigration is not being anti 'the other'.

It is about understanding that this is an Island with a finite space and that we can not keep on increasing the population by allowing more people into the country than we can cope with.”

You're assuming that net immigration is driving the growth of the population but natural growth would be just as much a factor, just as it is in nearly every developed country.
LostFool
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Ash_M1:
“Well the Tory Leaver who caused next week's by-election certainly does. I am quite sure there are lots of leavers in the QT audience who are soft Outters.”

The only professional friend who I know for certain voted Leave is the European sales manager of a manufacturing company. He said he voted against the political dimension of the EU but supports free movement and believes that continued membership of the Single Market is essential for his business. He wants the Norway model.
koantemplation
03-12-2016
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“You're assuming that net immigration is driving the growth of the population but natural growth would be just as much a factor, just as it is in nearly every developed country.”

I'm not assuming anything. It has been shown that immigration is NET so it is adding to growth. And in terms of natural growth it has also been shown that the birth rate is higher in the immigrant population than in non immigrant population.

If we had no immigrants for the past 30 years our population would have decreased not increased.
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