I used to think that there were an excess of disabled parking bays in my local sainsburys until I went there one Friday at about lunchtime and had to drive around and around and around to get into one with my daughter. Every single one was full.

Go at 8pm at night and they are all empty.

My daughter doesn't work and this may be more of a norm for a lot of the disabled spaces - it may be that what you think are an excess of spaces are actually full up.

Incidentally, I used to take her to a sports centre and there were only 3 spaces for disabled - never ever were we able to get into one of these spaces - always totally full. In the end we had to give up going which is a shame as she needs exercise such as swimming.

I need a really big space as she has a large electric wheelchair which has to be hoisted out of the back of the car and then drive to the side door where she needs the door opened fully and the wheelchair facing the passenger seat so she can transfer.

I don't expect lots and lots of spaces but my attitude is that they make life a lot easier and not one of us would wish to swap with the disabled person so lets try and make those little things a bit easier.

Not too many disabled spaces, there are too many 'family' ones though.

I park in family bays regardless.
Who needs a yard either side of the car just to take a pushchair out of the boot?

So what over provision would you think reasonable ? I agree some over provision may be reasonable, but only some. As mentioned before, the highest number of disabled users I counted was 6, the average was just under 3. So I`d have thought 6 spaces could be described as over provision on the average, but not an unreasonable amount. I could go with 6 spaces, which, probably not co incidentally, is the Council planning guideline. 16 is plainly way over the top, or at least it is in a car park where parking is short.

You`re wrong mate, though I have some sympathy with you if you have no kids, you just don`t know. I didn`t know before we had any kids..
Nobody heeds a yard each side to get a pram out of the boot, but they do to get a child out of its car seat. The child doesn`t travel in the pram in the boot.
You really have no excuse to park in family bays now it`s been explained to you........

I'd rather see a couple of empty disabled spaces, than see them all full and know that the next Blue Badge holder who drives into the car park might have to turn around and go home, because there's no suitable space available.

I don't really understand why P&T spaces should be right at the door. Of course it's handy for parents to not have to walk across the car park with young children. But it would also be handy for elderly people who are not blue badge holders, and I don't see why they are excluded from spaces near the door so that young and fit parents can have them exclusively for themselves and their children.

But that is a very emotive topic on DS. I still remember, in appalled horror, a poster saying that her eighty year old mother who was on crutches following a hip replacement, wouldn't dream of her daughter parking in a P&T space when bringing her to the supermarket, because young parents 'needed those spaces more'; and this statement being met with a chorus of approval from some posters who championed P&T spaces to the death.

The salient question here is where all the disabled parking bays being used by blue badge holders ? If not, then that`s an enforcement question, not a planning one.

If you're taking your baby out of a car and into the pushchair, it's useful and safer to have that extra space at the side. In a normal bay, you'll only have space to the rear, so you'd be causing an obstruction to other shoppers as you're strapping your baby into the pushchair. At the side of the car, there'll be no obstruction to other drivers.

As I posted on your other parking thread, it's not just Blue Badge holders who are entitled to use disabled parking spaces (in private car parks), anybody who has the appropriate protected characteristic under The Equalities Act 2010 and so needs a reasonable adjustment to be made can make use of them.

Well my parents managed. as I'm sure yours did, when there was no such thing as a family bay.

Or, again, just use a bit of common sense.

Our parents didn't have the strict regulation on child car seats that we do today.

They may have managed, but back then there were far less cars, cars tended to be smaller and mortality rates on the roads were far higher.

Surprisingly times change.

Maybe we should all go back to living in caves and banging rocks together to make a fire, after all our ancestors managed.

Except that it's not just that simple.

Unless you make some of the normal spaces much larger than standard you can't turn a normal spot into a disabled one. The regulations for a disabled spot require it to be at least 2.4m wide if there is a shared access point between it and the next one of 1.2m, otherwise it should be 3.3m wide at the minimum to allow for wheelchair access (there is no point in having it marked as a disabled spot if you can't get in/out of it).
Normal car parking spaces can be 2.4m and next to each other with loads of room to spare for getting in and out..

Also the 2 spots + 2% you quoted in an earlier post is the absolute bare minimum the law requires for customers, you also need to allow one per disabled staff member and the recommendation is that you put in more (I think how many more depends on business type)

To give you an idea of why 10% of spots might be required, at the moment about 4% of the population have a blue badge, however they are more likely to use a car to get around than people without the badge as they're less likely to be able to cycle, walk, or use public transport to get around.
So that 4% might be nearer 6-10% of the cars in use having a blue badge holder in them at times.

A few other little stats, at the moment there are about 11 million people in the UK who are disabled in one way or another (about 14% of the population), that is up by about a million in the last ten years in part because of an ageing population.
Anyone building facilities doesn't look just at the requirements for today, but for the next 5-10 years and that might mean putting in disabled friendly adaptations (one of the reasons all new build homes have various ones from the word go as it's far cheaper than retrofitting them)

As i said in the other thread I strongly suspect that the management and owners of the leisure centre know how many people attend who need such spots far better than the average customer.
Seeing loads of empty spots when you go doesn't mean much, my local supermarkets usually seem to have multiple empty disabled spots about 80% of the time, then you go in and find all the disabled spots full.

The only place I've seen family bays is at town car parks and supermarkets, not on the open road so the highway mortality rate doesn't seem that relevant.

The car size issue is a fair point. No wonder people can't park when they're driving those massive guzzling (and totally unnecessary) tractors about the place,


Well I'm not that old! We're talking about mid 1980s here

Perhaps parents could at least have their spaces as far away as possible from the supermarket door as the children can be put in the trolleys. Maybe some special 4x4 spaces too with a maximum stay of 30 minutes.

The ideal solution is to marry a midget, then you can legitimately use either.

Well that really rather opens a can of worms doesn`t it ! So what badge or pass would they have to display ? I`m assuming that they`d have to display one, otherwise we really would have a free for all. In fact I`d have thought that even disabled drivers (in fact particularly disabled drivers) would not be in favour of a system where people can use disabled bays without a pass/ badge.

But it does mean something. What I`d like to know is have any of these authorities handing out planning guidance ever done any real world checks ? As opposed to extrapolations and estimates ?
I`m certain the percentage of disabled spaces is down to the Sport England guidelines, not Ponds Forge. The only thing I don`t understand is why they didn`t just tell me that straight away instead of going all round the houses and ending up implying I was in some way anti disabled, which was infuriating (and very bad customer service to boot).

Oh I take your point about disabled spaces must be wider. So what I`d do is have some wider bays which can be used normally as non disabled bays, but reallocated if ever needed.

That would be good planning, but they don`t have to make the slightly larger spaces disabled spaces yet do they ? They could be flexible. The problem with all this is there is no flexibility. In this case the Sport England guidelines are 10% so that`s what it is, wrong or right. On a given night, even if most of the disabled spaces are empty I`ve never seen the car park attendant telling any of the circulating cars that they can (for this night only) use a disabled space.

A few times, i've had to go up a level, or parked in the arse end of the car park when disabled bays are free. Doesn't bother me, at least i can walk to the doors. They can't,

They're always full at the superstore near me.

There aren't too many. Where I stay, they quickly fill up during the day.

Off course they aren't as full at night, able bodied ones aren't either at night.

I don't think I've ever seen a full supermarket car park so even if there are 'too many' disabled/parent&child spaces, it's not as if there isn't anywhere else I can park.

Not really a can of worms as most disabled users will have a Blue Badge and that can still be displayed as an entitlement to use the disabled spaces. It is how they deal with those who aren't displaying a Blue Badge/haven't applied for one/don't fit the very strict criteria laid down to get one or for example have a protected characteristic e.g. pregnancy but can't apply for one. If the private parking company/the store tickets a vehicle and then disregards subsequent legitimate representations from someone for whom they are required by law to make reasonable adjustment then they could be in trouble.