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Day of the Doctor - The War Doctor |
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#1 |
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Day of the Doctor - The War Doctor
I was watching Day of the Doctor the other.... day... and at the end when the 3 Doctors appear to the War Council, you have Smith and Tennant announce themselves as The Doctor and then John Hurt goes "Also, The Doctor" or something like that. The way it is presented on screen is so matter-of-fact.
I was thinking that that moment really should have been bigged up; like it was a huge deal that the 'War Doctor' was introducing himself as 'The Doctor' especially as a fundamental aspect of his character was that he had shamed the Doctor name and had stopped using it. You could have had a reaction shot of Smith giving his approval. I dunno, it just seems to me that the premise set up in Name of the Doctor was pretty much forgotten and John Hurt was just another Doctor instead of being this no-nonsense wildcard. |
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#2 |
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i think as they had decided they were going along with the plan to save Gallifrey then he diecide to use "The Doctor" again.
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#3 |
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I think it's all just part of a generally poorly conceived character, really. A relatively minor point, but one of many that contribute to the War Doctor being what I consider one of the biggest missteps of Doctor Who in the past decade.
His character just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A secret incarnation of the Doctor would imply that the activities of that Doctor were also secret. But by-and-large they're not - the Doctor has always been quite upfront about what he did in the Time War. How he wiped the Daleks out, and his own people with them. How he fought on the front lines, how he saw the fall of Arcadia, how in spite of everything he at least tried to save Davros, how he watched his whole species become monsters in their own right. In fact he was always quite descriptive about the war and his involvement in it. So what purpose does it serve in hiding his face? His companions and allies know he can change his face, but they don't know all of those faces (except for Clara)... so saying that one particular face was hidden is a fairly redundant statement. Is a secret a secret when there's technically nobody to know it? It was, in reality, a way to shoehorn John Hurt into a pivotal role. And as has been the way with Moffat a fair few times, he's gone the convoluted scenic route to involve someone (Hell Bent Clara would have worked so much better as a splinter-Clara). When it comes to execution, the whole point of the War Doctor kind of falls flat anyway but then you get sloppy moments like the one mentioned here as well... that maybe highlight that poor conception just a little more. |
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#4 |
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To a certain extent I agree with above poster, having said that I loved John Hurt as the war Doctor. I'm not sure if the character was created specifically with him in mind or not.
Was River aware of "the war Doctor" ? I can't remember if his picture was included in her book of Doctor's or not. I think all in all, they should have just acknowledged him as being the 9th Doctor from the start but just say that he prefered not to talk about that incarnation. |
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#5 |
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I think it's important to remember that we would never have had The War Doctor if Christopher Eccleston had agreed to return as the 9th Doctor.
The War Doctor was specifically created to fill a gap in the story of the anniversary special, which seems a rather poor reason to create an entire additional incarnation of the Doctor. And the narrative around the War Doctor just doesn't make sense. There was no timey-whimey meddling with his timeline. The Doctor just chose to ignore the fact he existed. But that doesn't explain why (for instance) the Cybermen had no record of him in their infostamp in The Next Doctor. And, for me, I guess I am still wondering why the 8th Doctor (Paul McGann) simply wasn't utilized instead. I think that would have been much more interesting, to see how the dashing and romantic 8th Doctor became a man willing to destroy his own world. And Paul's a great actor. I don't want to start a big Moffat-bashing thread, but for me this was typical of his glib approach to Doctor Who continuity. |
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#6 |
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Quote:
I think it's important to remember that we would never have had The War Doctor if Christopher Eccleston had agreed to return as the 9th Doctor.
The War Doctor was specifically created to fill a gap in the story of the anniversary special, which seems a rather poor reason to create an entire additional incarnation of the Doctor. And the narrative around the War Doctor just doesn't make sense. There was no timey-whimey meddling with his timeline. The Doctor just chose to ignore the fact he existed. But that doesn't explain why (for instance) the Cybermen had no record of him in their infostamp in The Next Doctor. And, for me, I guess I am still wondering why the 8th Doctor (Paul McGann) simply wasn't utilized instead. I think that would have been much more interesting, to see how the dashing and romantic 8th Doctor became a man willing to destroy his own world. And Paul's a great actor. I don't want to start a big Moffat-bashing thread, but for me this was typical of his glib approach to Doctor Who continuity. |
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#7 |
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Quote:
I thought the War Doctor was in regardless? Especially considering Name of the Doctor was written well before the 50th. It was done so Moffat could get a new regeneration cycle for Matt Smith's departure.
The ending of Name of the Doctor; it's a short scene that could be rewritten whoever was in place. (and was shot much later than that episode.) Imagine suddenly the reveal of Eccleston standing there in the flesh as a cliffhanger. That would've been ![]() I'm a bit torn on The War Doctor thing, as it would've been brilliant to see 9 again, or indeed McGann. (glad we got Night...at least. And in fairness fans would've gone YES! but Paul had only been on screen for one episode however many years ago for the general public...who wouldn't know what BF even was) yet the fact that it was John effing HURT playing the role was quite something as I've always rated him really highly. And he was very good. |
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#8 |
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Quote:
I think that The War Doctor came about after Christopher had declined to appear. For a short period, there was a script in development and no Doctors under contract!
The ending of Name of the Doctor; it's a short scene that could be rewritten whoever was in place. (and was shot much later than that episode.) Imagine suddenly the reveal of Eccleston standing there in the flesh as a cliffhanger. That would've been ![]() I'm a bit torn on The War Doctor thing, as it would've been brilliant to see 9 again, or indeed McGann. (glad we got Night...at least. And in fairness fans would've gone YES! but Paul had only been on screen for one episode however many years ago for the general public...who wouldn't know what BF even was) yet the fact that it was John effing HURT playing the role was quite something as I've always rated him really highly. And he was very good. |
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#9 |
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Quote:
But by the end of the episode Tennant wasn't even confirmed yet, Eccleston was meant to be another part of The Doctor's coping with what they did in the Time War. Hurt was always in it.
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#10 |
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Quote:
But by the end of the episode Tennant wasn't even confirmed yet, Eccleston was meant to be another part of The Doctor's coping with what they did in the Time War. Hurt was always in it.
So if the War Doctor was always meant to be in the story his role would have been different to what actually appeared on screen. Edit Here they are No sign of the War Doctor and the 9th in scenes the War Doctor eventually had including being the one in the Barn with the Moment. So if the 9th Doctor was meant to be the one to use the Moment I can't see what role the War Doctor was meant to have. |
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#11 |
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Interesting points raised here.
In general it sounds like the final output was the outcome of a troubled planning and pre-production process. Perhaps this was because of inadequacies of SM as a showrunner (if you're being uncharitable), i.e. he's just not that good at it? Or perhaps because he was over committed and overloaded at that point (if you're being charitable). If that's the case then it's also fair to be critical in that he failed to recognise that he wasn't doing justice to Doctor Who. But maybe he was between a rock and hard place, with no-one to step in for Doctor Who or Sherlock. He certainly would have been castigated (and I would've joined the chorus) if there'd been no 50th at all. Or maybe it was ego? I don't know the man, nor his motivations, so I won't jump to the conclusion that it was ego (and not best of intentions) without evidence. To me, evidence suggests he has a love of Doctor Who, just like any other fan. We're left with a result that I still thoroughly enjoyed and liked, but probably could have been better still, if the production and showrunning side had been better organized at the time. That the writing, I felt, was able to skirt round these things and produce a good result, is some sort of testament to the man's writing skills. |
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#12 |
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Quote:
But by the end of the episode Tennant wasn't even confirmed yet, Eccleston was meant to be another part of The Doctor's coping with what they did in the Time War. Hurt was always in it.
In his original conception of the show's anniversary special, Moffat had written the Ninth Doctor as having ended the Time War. However, he was "pretty certain" that Christopher Eccleston would decline to return to the role, which he ultimately did. As he also had reservations about making Paul McGann's Eighth Doctor the incarnation who had ended the war, he created a never-before-seen past incarnation of the Doctor, which allowed him "a freer hand" in writing the story, acknowledging that the success of doing this would be predicated on being able to cast an actor with a significant enough profile. I remember Moffat saying how he had met Eccleston for dinner and talked him through the proposed story for the anniversary, but Eccleston felt there was no room to develop the 9th Doctor's character and so declined. This was all very early on. But the end result if that if Eccleston had agreed to return, there would have been no War Doctor. |
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#13 |
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Quote:
The 'War Doctor' Wikipedia page says this:
In his original conception of the show's anniversary special, Moffat had written the Ninth Doctor as having ended the Time War. However, he was "pretty certain" that Christopher Eccleston would decline to return to the role, which he ultimately did. As he also had reservations about making Paul McGann's Eighth Doctor the incarnation who had ended the war, he created a never-before-seen past incarnation of the Doctor, which allowed him "a freer hand" in writing the story, acknowledging that the success of doing this would be predicated on being able to cast an actor with a significant enough profile. I remember Moffat saying how he had met Eccleston for dinner and talked him through the proposed story for the anniversary, but Eccleston felt there was no room to develop the 9th Doctor's character and so declined. This was all very early on. But the end result if that if Eccleston had agreed to return, there would have been no War Doctor. |
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#14 |
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So *if* Christopher had been sold on the concept and hadn't had possibly a still slightly sour taste in his mouth because of a) the "higher ups" and b) the pretty rubbish way his leaving was explained by the BBC when it leaked, and *if* RTD hadn't gone for the 'sort of' Doctor ending up with Rose stuff, then *maybe* Moffat wouldn't have addressed the 12 regenerations stuff when Matt left? Hmmm. If you didn't like the addressing of the regeneration limit, It was the Welsho git's 'fault', really, rather than the Scottish git! Or a bit of both.
NB I am not being serious. And like RTD. And am a Welsho. |
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#15 |
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To be fair, they'e never addressed the Master's regenerations (as far as I can recall). I just assumed the Time Lords had renewed everyone's regeneration cycle as the Time War escalated to stop them losing valuable soldiers. I'm surprised they didn't just gloss over this with The Doctor too.
Although, by that stage, there wasn't much of The Master left really. * He had used up all of his regenerations by The Deadly Assassin * He then merged with Tremas (not a Time Lord) * The Daleks then exterminated him into little bits * His remains became a liquid snake creature * And he then possessed a human paramedic by sliding down his throat * Before being zapped into The Eye or Orion and destroyed (again) By the way, was it a big deal at the time - the Master coming back in The Deadly Assassin? I was too young to remember Roger Delgado/The Master from the UNIT days so for me (at the time) he was just a horrid one-off monster. I had no idea it was the return of an arch villain. |
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#16 |
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Quote:
To be fair, they'e never addressed the Master's regenerations (as far as I can recall). I just assumed the Time Lords had renewed everyone's regeneration cycle as the Time War escalated to stop them losing valuable soldiers.
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#17 |
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The Master said he was resurrected by the Time Lords to fight in the Time War and if they are going to bring you back from the dead throwing in a new regeneration cycle is a given I would have thought.
Still, the War Doctor's teaming up with Leela in the next season! |
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#18 |
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A small, but significant point about what we've heard about the Time War: they weren't necessarily regenerated when they died. It was mentioned many times they were RESURRECTED. Like the Master was. I believe the Time Lady mentions or implies resurrection as well before Rassilon atomizes her. And that brings Rassilon up as well. Why was he even there? Yeah he was a semi-conscious entity in his "tomb"... Regeneration would be a crap way to fight a war, what with all the Time Lords being barmy in the head for a while after each regen. My pet theory is they came up with a way of totally resurrecting dead Time Lords...and they brought back both Rassilon and the Doctor's Mum ("someone who was lost, long long ago"). And the Master, who didn't even have a body when we last saw him. In fact the Master resurrected HIMSELF for the End of Time, with a whole new body. No regeneration needed. Heh...maybe the Time Lords got their "resurrection" technology from the Master to begin with, given all the times in the original series where he kept coming back after certain death (but always looking like Tremas). That would be a fun twist. Makes sense that the Master had a way of "snapshotting" himself since he couldn't regenerate anymore. Anyway back to the War Doc...he was supposed to be a warrior, right? But nothing Hurt did convinced me he was a warrior of any kind. And the Time Lords just rolled their eyes when he appeared, calling him "mad." Although I enjoyed the 50th the War Doctor just didn't really work for me at all. Would have preferred to see McGann in the role as the 8th. Quote:
To be fair, they'e never addressed the Master's regenerations (as far as I can recall). I just assumed the Time Lords had renewed everyone's regeneration cycle as the Time War escalated to stop them losing valuable soldiers. I'm surprised they didn't just gloss over this with The Doctor too.
Although, by that stage, there wasn't much of The Master left really. * He had used up all of his regenerations by The Deadly Assassin * He then merged with Tremas (not a Time Lord) * The Daleks then exterminated him into little bits * His remains became a liquid snake creature * And he then possessed a human paramedic by sliding down his throat * Before being zapped into The Eye or Orion and destroyed (again) By the way, was it a big deal at the time - the Master coming back in The Deadly Assassin? I was too young to remember Roger Delgado/The Master from the UNIT days so for me (at the time) he was just a horrid one-off monster. I had no idea it was the return of an arch villain. |
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#19 |
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Quote:
Anyway back to the War Doc...he was supposed to be a warrior, right? But nothing Hurt did convinced me he was a warrior of any kind. And the Time Lords just rolled their eyes when he appeared, calling him "mad." Although I enjoyed the 50th the War Doctor just didn't really work for me at all. Would have preferred to see McGann in the role as the 8th.
The Doctor (9 and 10) very much owned the guilt associated with the destruction of Gallifrey, so it seemed strange he ignored/forgot/deleted the incarnation who acted it out. It would have been much more believable if he'd been more of a Valeyard character, reflecting the Doctor's dark side. |
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#20 |
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The trouble with having the Tenth alongside the Eleventh but without at least the Ninth is that it aside from trying to exude similarities between Tennant's and Smith's portrayals, it makes the Tenth look a bit redundant.
What it should've been is at least 90 minutes and should have had the Eighth, Ninth, Tenth and Eleventh Doctors together. That, to me, would've been the ultimate 50th anniversary episode. |
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#21 |
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I think you've pretty much nailed my view as well. It would have been much more believable if the War Doctor had been some dangerous, out-of-control war criminal. Instead he was portrayed as being a likeable, battle-scarred peace maker.
The Doctor (9 and 10) very much owned the guilt associated with the destruction of Gallifrey, so it seemed strange he ignored/forgot/deleted the incarnation who acted it out. |
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#22 |
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I know it would never happen but id love a war doctor televised series.
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#23 |
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Quote:
The trouble with having the Tenth alongside the Eleventh but without at least the Ninth is that it aside from trying to exude similarities between Tennant's and Smith's portrayals, it makes the Tenth look a bit redundant.
What it should've been is at least 90 minutes and should have had the Eighth, Ninth, Tenth and Eleventh Doctors together. That, to me, would've been the ultimate 50th anniversary episode. |
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#24 |
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You couldnt get much darker than the 7th doctor which is what they should have done.
I described my idea here: http://gluben.tumblr.com/post/133818...-shouldve-gone |
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#25 |
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The best thing would have been the 9th to completely replace the War Doctor's role, and including the scenes with 'Bad Wolf' Rose in the tent (which wasn't the original plan. When the 9th was still being considered he was gonna be in those scenes with 'Raggedy Girl' whoever that would be)
Chris acting across from Billie again would have been something to see, would have made the 50th truly special. Tennant being in it was okay but his role was shit (Moffat wrote Ten so well during the RTD era......). |
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