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Daily Politics boils over as Andrew Neil rages at Tim Farron


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Old 03-12-2016, 10:08
jjwales
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They were both exercises in democracy albeit framed differently in the questions they asked and options offered. I like you do not agree with the liberals pursuing a second referendum nor even a second by election for Olney. However they can't pick and choose the type of democracy that suits them, if it's good for the goose....
The difference is that a referendum on terms of exit is theoretically possible, and would not be asking the same question as the first one.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:21
CSJB
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Exactly if enough of us switch our votes to the remain candidate we will kill brexit forever. The situation is very similar where I am - Tories usually win but the Libs always come second. I know a lot of Tory friends here who say they will back remain candidates to stop brexit.
The flaw in your cunning plan is that there're far more people that want to leave the EU than want to stay.
If the referendum result is replicated at a general election, then it would be a massive landslide for the party (tories) in favour of upholding the will of the people.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:27
dosanjh1
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/739...Lib-Dem-block-

"The Liberal Democrat leader was called out by a furious Neil over the suggestion he was clueless about the EU referendum."

"Cutting him off, Neil interjected: "You've mentioned him, stick with the issues. It's your position I'm here to interrogate, not Mr Phillips'."

However as Mr Farron once again deflected the issue and accused the host of making assumptions about voters' intentions, Neil thundered: "No, no I’m not and don’t misrepresent me!"
Is that it?

With the words boiling and raging I thought Neil was going to rip of his shirt and shout COME ON THEN at Farron.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:38
aurichie
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The flaw in your cunning plan is that there're far more people that want to leave the EU than want to stay.
If the referendum result is replicated at a general election, then it would be a massive landslide for the party (tories) in favour of upholding the will of the people.
The polls show a significant majority now want to stay in the EU. Also remember a majority of eligible voters did not vote for brexit.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:39
shaddler
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BIB

You are living in dreamland.
Well, he did say he was moving if Leave won the referendum...

I'm definitely leaving if Britain votes for exit. I've already said that. I'll be taking my business with me like many other entrepreneurs and successful businessman and investors. Good luck to the rest of you who stay behind for the misery.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:58
Ennerjee
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How very liberally democratic of the Liberal Democrats it is to attempt to overturn the referendum result. Make no mistake that they want to stay in the EU by calling for the UK to remain a member of the Single Market (rather than having access to it) and Freedom of Movement. It's the EU by another name.

Can we look forward to them campaigning for new referenda on electoral reform and Scottish independence? What about campaigning to overturn the 1975 referendum result?

Will they also call for referenda on the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties, which we were democratically denied in case we voted the wrong way?

I'd like to see calls for a referendum to decide whether the Lib Dems should be abolished as a spent, exhausted and insignificant political party.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:00
jmclaugh
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So Olney can vote against article 50 as the by-election gives her a mandate but the referendum vote apparently doesn't give a mandate to vote for it. Perhaps the other 8 Lib Dem MPs should resign and trigger by-elections to find out if their constituents feel the same.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:02
dosanjh1
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I'd like to see calls for a referendum to decide whether the Lib Dems should be abolished as a spent, exhausted and insignificant political party.
Franco, Mussolini and Hitler would certainly approve.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:08
jjwales
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How very liberally democratic of the Liberal Democrats it is to attempt to overturn the referendum result. Make no mistake that they want to stay in the EU by calling for the UK to remain a member of the Single Market (rather than access to it) and Freedom of Movement. It's the EU by another name.

Can we look forward to them campaigning for new referenda on electoral reform and Scottish independence?
Well, I would certainly hope they'd be campaigning for the former. About time we had the referendum on PR that we were denied the last time. But Scottish independence is a matter for the Scots.

I'd like to see calls for a referendum to decide whether the Lib Dems should be abolished as a spent, exhausted and insignificant political party.
There would be no need to abolish them if they're so exhausted and insignificant! However it does seem that they are on the way back up.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:08
aurichie
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I'd like to see calls for a referendum to decide whether the Lib Dems should be abolished as a spent, exhausted and insignificant political party.
They certainly looked out for the count before Tim Farron started fighting back against the brexiteers. But that was then and this is now - they are relevant again.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:08
MARTYM8
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The polls show a significant majority now want to stay in the EU. Also remember a majority of eligible voters did not vote for brexit.
Really?

Any real evidence for this - any at all. Did you secretly have another poll of 37 million people with out telling us?

If we are supposed to believe the final poll published by Populus as the polls closed on 23 June remain won by 10 per cent - within five hours in the actual vote leave won by 4.

If anything has shown us this year polls don't reflect public opinion. Almost all the final polls on 23 June had remain ahead - leave won. In Richmond 'the polls' has Goldsmith winning by a landslide - he lost! If the polls were right Hillary Clinton would be President elect - she isn't.

So let's not quote polls - we had a vote and that is the only count that counts. A once in a generation vote - and we all knew it.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:09
pedrok
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I don't agree with the Lib Dems on having a referendum on the terms of the exit, but if it happened it would still be an exercise in democracy. And I think JHB was silly to compare a by-election vote with a national referendum. Completely different things.
Absolutely. JHB is being seen as some hard hitting interviewer, yet she was even comparing apples with pears, she was comparing apples with a fork lift truck.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:11
aurichie
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Really?

Any real evidence for this - any at all. Did you secretly have another poll of 37 million people with out telling us?

If we are supposed to believe the final poll published by Populus as the polls closed on 23 June remain won by 10 per cent - within five hours in the actual vote leave won by 4.

If anything has shown us this year polls don't reflect public opinion. Almost all the final polls on 23 June had remain ahead. In Richmond 'the polls' has Goldsmith winning by a landslide - he lost! If the polls were right Hillary Clinton would be President elect.
There has been at least a dozen polls that show huge shifts towards remaining in the EU since the referendum. I don't have links offhand, but I know I'm right.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:12
Clarisse76
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The polls show a significant majority now want to stay in the EU.
They showed that at some other time as well, didn't they? Yeah, I'm sure they did. Geez, when was that? Oh yeah, I remember - it was all the way up to the referendum.

Also remember a majority of eligible voters did not vote for brexit.
Neither did they vote for remain.

There has been at least a dozen polls that show huge shifts towards remaining in the EU since the referendum. I don't have links offhand, but I know I'm right.
Clue: until you prove you're right, you're wrong. And even if you are right, the polls are wrong. Because that's what polls do - get things hopelessy, hilariously wrong.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:17
MARTYM8
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The difference is that a referendum on terms of exit is theoretically possible, and would not be asking the same question as the first one.
So how do you frame the question?

If people reject the deal does that mean the status quo prevails and we stay in the EU or does it mean people think the deal is too soft. Because remainers may vote against to keep us in the EU and leavers may do so as they think the deal means we aren't really leaving at all.

So if we reject the deal in a second referendum what does that mean?

We voted to leave the EU and it's now for parliament and the government to deliver on a deal.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:19
aurichie
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They showed that at some other time as well, didn't they? Yeah, I'm sure they did. Geez, when was that? Oh yeah, I remember - it was all the way up to the referendum.

Neither did they vote for remain.

Clue: until you prove you're right, you're wrong. And even if you are right, the polls are wrong. Because that's what polls do - get things hopelessy, hilariously wrong.
I will post links to those polls in a few hours when I'm on my computer and not my smartphone. And no they are not wrong, they are well outside of the margin of error - it's very clear REMAIN WOULD 100% WIN a second referendum. I'd put my house on it.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:29
Nodger
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I will post links to those polls in a few hours when I'm on my computer and not my smartphone. And no they are not wrong, they are well outside of the margin of error - it's very clear REMAIN WOULD 100% WIN a second referendum. I'd put my house on it.
..."at least a dozen showing a huge shift" don't forget. One wishy washy offering with a 0.00000000001% result demonstrating your assertion will not cut the mustard.

There has been at least a dozen polls that show huge shifts towards remaining in the EU since the referendum. I don't have links offhand, but I know I'm right.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:31
Clarisse76
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I will post links to those polls in a few hours when I'm on my computer and not my smartphone. And no they are not wrong, they are well outside of the margin of error - it's very clear REMAIN WOULD 100% WIN a second referendum. I'd put my house on it.
Well if there is one, you be sure to go right ahead and do that.

In the meantime, the rest of us will be treating polls with the utter contempt their risible track record deserves
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:37
Dan 54
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There has been at least a dozen polls that show huge shifts towards remaining in the EU since the referendum. I don't have links offhand, but I know I'm right.
You've never been right yet,you've got form for being utterly wrong absolutely every time.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:58
jjwales
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So how do you frame the question?

If people reject the deal does that mean the status quo prevails and we stay in the EU or does it mean people think the deal is too soft. Because remainers may vote against to keep us in the EU and leavers may do so as they think the deal means we aren't really leaving at all.

So if we reject the deal in a second referendum what does that mean?

We voted to leave the EU and it's now for parliament and the government to deliver on a deal.
I agree. I'm against a second referendum because it would leave us in an impossible situation if the terms of exit weren't accepted.
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Old 03-12-2016, 12:04
MARTYM8
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Franco, Mussolini and Hitler would certainly approve.
Well they didn't accept democratic election results and two of them wanted to create a European superstate controlled by Germany with essentially no borders,

Sounds a bit like the Lib Dems!
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Old 03-12-2016, 12:09
jjwales
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Well they didn't accept democratic election results and two of them wanted to create a European superstate controlled by Germany with essentially no borders,

Sounds a bit like the Lib Dems!
Don't be daft!
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Old 03-12-2016, 12:21
MARTYM8
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There has been at least a dozen polls that show huge shifts towards remaining in the EU since the referendum. I don't have links offhand, but I know I'm right.

At least a dozen polls but you can't provide a link to any of them?

Not according to John Curtice or others!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...it-top-pollst/
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Old 03-12-2016, 12:22
CSJB
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I agree. I'm against a second referendum because it would leave us in an impossible situation if the terms of exit weren't accepted.
Not necessarily, it depends on the question.
We have already established (via the last referendum) that the British people want to leave the EU.
So surely any new question proposed by a referendum should be something like this :

Do you accept the new terms (whatever they may be) proposed by parliament

Or

Do you want to leave the EU in its entirety and trade on WTO tariffs

Any referendum offering a new deal or stay in the EU would be an attempt to subvert democracy and would leave the county in total dissary.

I should add, I don't think there should be a referendum of any kind, I'm happy for the government to try and get the best deal possible.
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Old 03-12-2016, 12:23
aurichie
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At least a dozen polls but you can't provide a link to any of them?
I will in an hour.
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