When the show hypes up things like Danny's samba being "the first perfect one ever" or does those Stat Attack graphics on It Takes Two comparing someone's overall average score to someone in Series 3 who happened to have the same dayjob or take storyline angles where they kvetch endlessly that X hasn't got a 10 yet, they set the stage for conversations about over and undermarking that are far bigger than "on the night". Every dance should be marked in terms of the wider context of what is required to get a particular score in that dance. What someone scored in a completely different and usually incomparable genre two dances ago should have nothing much to do with it.
Danny overmarked again
7 of 9
Originally Posted by Monkseal:
“When the show hypes up things like Danny's samba being "the first perfect one ever" or does those Stat Attack graphics on It Takes Two comparing someone's overall average score to someone in Series 3 who happened to have the same dayjob or take storyline angles where they kvetch endlessly that X hasn't got a 10 yet, they set the stage for conversations about over and undermarking that are far bigger than "on the night". Every dance should be marked in terms of the wider context of what is required to get a particular score in that dance. What someone scored in a completely different and usually incomparable genre two dances ago should have nothing much to do with it.”
“When the show hypes up things like Danny's samba being "the first perfect one ever" or does those Stat Attack graphics on It Takes Two comparing someone's overall average score to someone in Series 3 who happened to have the same dayjob or take storyline angles where they kvetch endlessly that X hasn't got a 10 yet, they set the stage for conversations about over and undermarking that are far bigger than "on the night". Every dance should be marked in terms of the wider context of what is required to get a particular score in that dance. What someone scored in a completely different and usually incomparable genre two dances ago should have nothing much to do with it.”
But the judges can sometimes barely remember what they are doing through one series (lifts bad v lifts ignored, fudged foot work acceptable v not, little incidents mentioned or not - the list goes on) without asking them to remember they got angsty about Kelly having an extra lift or grumpy about the amount of time Kara was out of hold. Heads may explode
I think Strictly operates on 2 planes simultaneously - what happens on a Saturday night and what happens for the rest of the week.
Originally Posted by tabithakitten:
“It's not a problem exactly, it's just that the title and the theme of the thread is overmarking. You've even mentioned it yourself. It's going to be the spectre at the feast of everyone's posts whether you want it to be or not.
Of course you can comment on the dance on its own merits but the topic on most people's mind in this thread will be overmarking and bias and they'll probably respond accordingly. Well, as you've seen - they have done.”
“It's not a problem exactly, it's just that the title and the theme of the thread is overmarking. You've even mentioned it yourself. It's going to be the spectre at the feast of everyone's posts whether you want it to be or not.
Of course you can comment on the dance on its own merits but the topic on most people's mind in this thread will be overmarking and bias and they'll probably respond accordingly. Well, as you've seen - they have done
.”
Ah but on here it always apparently has to be interpreted as overmarking when compared to someone else, as opposed to overmarking as an assessment ONLY of the dance which has been performed.
The latter is what I base my judgment upon. I really don't see that the marks awarded to anyone else are relevant to the score given to Danny.There are not a finite number of marks allocated among the contestants. They all have the potential to be marked out of a possible 40 (no matter how unlikely that may be in some cases).
Just because one person gets 38 (for example) doesn't mean that someone else must only be awarded 32 (for example). It happens often that people's marks are tied. It would be different if the marks were allocated as they are in something like - I dunno... the Eurovision Song Contest - or something else like that. So, say this week there were only 15 points to be awarded among 5 contestants - 1.e. that they were allocated 5 points, 4 points, 3 points, 2 points or one point. Then the idea of relative overmarking or undermarking becomes more of an issue.
The theme of the thread has evolved into rather more than simply any question of overmarking.... hence the variety of comments on the content of the dance itself.
Originally Posted by Moany Liza:
“Ah but on here it always apparently has to be interpreted as overmarking when compared to someone else, as opposed to overmarking as an assessment ONLY of the dance which has been performed. The latter is what I base my judgment upon. I really don't see that the marks awarded to anyone else are relevant to the score given to Danny.
There are not a finite number of marks allocated among the contestants. They all have the potential to be marked out of a possible 40 (no matter how unlikely that may be in some cases). Just because one person gets 38 (for example) doesn't mean that someone else must only be awarded 32 (for example). It happens often that people's marks are tied.
It would be different if the marks were allocated as they are in something like - I dunno... the Eurovision Song Contest - or something else like that. So, say this week there were only 15 points to be awarded among 5 contestants - 1.e. that they were allocated 5 points, 4 points, 3 points, 2 points or one point. Then the idea of relative overmarking or undermarking becomes more of an issue.
The theme of the thread has evolved into rather more than simply any question of overmarking.... hence the variety of comments on the content of the dance itself.”
“Ah but on here it always apparently has to be interpreted as overmarking when compared to someone else, as opposed to overmarking as an assessment ONLY of the dance which has been performed.
The latter is what I base my judgment upon. I really don't see that the marks awarded to anyone else are relevant to the score given to Danny.There are not a finite number of marks allocated among the contestants. They all have the potential to be marked out of a possible 40 (no matter how unlikely that may be in some cases).
Just because one person gets 38 (for example) doesn't mean that someone else must only be awarded 32 (for example). It happens often that people's marks are tied. It would be different if the marks were allocated as they are in something like - I dunno... the Eurovision Song Contest - or something else like that. So, say this week there were only 15 points to be awarded among 5 contestants - 1.e. that they were allocated 5 points, 4 points, 3 points, 2 points or one point. Then the idea of relative overmarking or undermarking becomes more of an issue.
The theme of the thread has evolved into rather more than simply any question of overmarking.... hence the variety of comments on the content of the dance itself.”
But they are to the judges when they are assessing if the dance they have just seen is better or worse than the one before - which they gave a 9.
Originally Posted by Moany Liza:
“Ah but on here it always apparently has to be interpreted as overmarking when compared to someone else, as opposed to overmarking as an assessment ONLY of the dance which has been performed. The latter is what I base my judgment upon. I really don't see that the marks awarded to anyone else are relevant to the score given to Danny.
There are not a finite number of marks allocated among the contestants. They all have the potential to be marked out of a possible 40 (no matter how unlikely that may be in some cases). Just because one person gets 38 (for example) doesn't mean that someone else must only be awarded 32 (for example). It happens often that people's marks are tied.
It would be different if the marks were allocated as they are in something like - I dunno... the Eurovision Song Contest - or something else like that. So, say this week there were only 15 points to be awarded among 5 contestants - 1.e. that they were allocated 5 points, 4 points, 3 points, 2 points or one point. Then the idea of relative overmarking or undermarking becomes more of an issue.
The theme of the thread has evolved into rather more than simply any question of overmarking.... hence the variety of comments on the content of the dance itself.”
“Ah but on here it always apparently has to be interpreted as overmarking when compared to someone else, as opposed to overmarking as an assessment ONLY of the dance which has been performed.
The latter is what I base my judgment upon. I really don't see that the marks awarded to anyone else are relevant to the score given to Danny.There are not a finite number of marks allocated among the contestants. They all have the potential to be marked out of a possible 40 (no matter how unlikely that may be in some cases).
Just because one person gets 38 (for example) doesn't mean that someone else must only be awarded 32 (for example). It happens often that people's marks are tied. It would be different if the marks were allocated as they are in something like - I dunno... the Eurovision Song Contest - or something else like that. So, say this week there were only 15 points to be awarded among 5 contestants - 1.e. that they were allocated 5 points, 4 points, 3 points, 2 points or one point. Then the idea of relative overmarking or undermarking becomes more of an issue.
The theme of the thread has evolved into rather more than simply any question of overmarking.... hence the variety of comments on the content of the dance itself.”
Genuine question: How do you determine whether a dance has been overmarked in isolation, and not in comparison to any other dances? Surely to do that you need explicit criteria as to what qualifies a dance as a 6 or an 8 or a 10? And we don't have that, and we have discussions about just about every dance that scores a 40 and whether that means perfection or just a very, very good dance.
Originally Posted by Muggsy:
“Genuine question: How do you determine whether a dance has been overmarked in isolation, and not in comparison to any other dances? Surely to do that you need explicit criteria as to what qualifies a dance as a 6 or an 8 or a 10? And we don't have that, and we have discussions about just about every dance that scores a 40 and whether that means perfection or just a very, very good dance.”
“Genuine question: How do you determine whether a dance has been overmarked in isolation, and not in comparison to any other dances? Surely to do that you need explicit criteria as to what qualifies a dance as a 6 or an 8 or a 10? And we don't have that, and we have discussions about just about every dance that scores a 40 and whether that means perfection or just a very, very good dance.”
Totally agree, specially in a dance competition.
Every year there is a thread in which somebody complains about the Judges having a favourite who they mark high irrespective of the performance.
This year it's all about either the Cliftons or Danni(take your pick).
This always assumes the four Judges all agree on who they want to win. The one thing about Len and Co. is that they frequently do disagree so either this allegation is a load of old cack or they are very good actors.
Oh and if any of you think BBC conspiracy can you tell us how high this double dealing extends(Tony Hall perhaps).
Two things. Please remember this is all about opinions not facts. For my part I would rather respect the views of four people with over 100 years experience of Dance than those of the latest conspiracy theorists.
Second It's only a light entertainment show.
This year it's all about either the Cliftons or Danni(take your pick).
This always assumes the four Judges all agree on who they want to win. The one thing about Len and Co. is that they frequently do disagree so either this allegation is a load of old cack or they are very good actors.
Oh and if any of you think BBC conspiracy can you tell us how high this double dealing extends(Tony Hall perhaps).
Two things. Please remember this is all about opinions not facts. For my part I would rather respect the views of four people with over 100 years experience of Dance than those of the latest conspiracy theorists.
Second It's only a light entertainment show.
Originally Posted by Muggsy:
“Genuine question: How do you determine whether a dance has been overmarked in isolation, and not in comparison to any other dances? Surely to do that you need explicit criteria as to what qualifies a dance as a 6 or an 8 or a 10? And we don't have that, and we have discussions about just about every dance that scores a 40 and whether that means perfection or just a very, very good dance.”
“Genuine question: How do you determine whether a dance has been overmarked in isolation, and not in comparison to any other dances? Surely to do that you need explicit criteria as to what qualifies a dance as a 6 or an 8 or a 10? And we don't have that, and we have discussions about just about every dance that scores a 40 and whether that means perfection or just a very, very good dance.”
Well, for starters, the pairs are usually dancing different dances to each other. It's not REALLY possible to judge a foxtrot versus a salsa (for example), is it? Dances can only truly be assessed as a comparison if you are judging like for like.
It would be a bit like judging the best home-baked cake against the prize marrows at the village fete otherwise.
All I can say is that although Danny and Oti's dance was really very good indeed, I don't think it merited any 10s. It matters not one iota about anyone else's dance when scoring theirs - because nobody else did a Tango this week, so there was really nothing to compare it with. The scoring should have been solely about whether the usual criteria for marking a Tango were met. I don't think it was perfect - or close to it - hence my own opinion that it was overmarked.
And yet the judges have to compare and contrast to get the weekly leaderboard 
All you can do Is hope that you have a Mary Berry and an Alan Titchmarsh judging who can mark each thing against a set of prescribed parameters so even if they are disparate they are in the correct ranking.
All you can do Is hope that you have a Mary Berry and an Alan Titchmarsh judging who can mark each thing against a set of prescribed parameters so even if they are disparate they are in the correct ranking.
Originally Posted by aggs:
“And yet the judges have to compare and contrast to get the weekly leaderboard
All you can do Is hope that you have a Mary Berry and an Alan Titchmarsh judging who can mark each thing against a set of prescribed parameters so even if they are disparate they are in the correct ranking.”
“And yet the judges have to compare and contrast to get the weekly leaderboard
All you can do Is hope that you have a Mary Berry and an Alan Titchmarsh judging who can mark each thing against a set of prescribed parameters so even if they are disparate they are in the correct ranking.”
Specially judges have to compare in the DO and send a couple home, how is that fair then??
Originally Posted by Moany Liza:
“Well, for starters, the pairs are usually dancing different dances to each other. It's not REALLY possible to judge a foxtrot versus a salsa (for example), is it? Dances can only truly be assessed as a comparison if you are judging like for like.
It would be a bit like judging the best home-baked cake against the prize marrows at the village fete otherwise.
All I can say is that although Danny and Oti's dance was really very good indeed, I don't think it merited any 10s. It matters not one iota about anyone else's dance when scoring theirs - because nobody else did a Tango this week, so there was really nothing to compare it with. The scoring should have been solely about whether the usual criteria for marking a Tango were met. I don't think it was perfect - or close to it - hence my own opinion that it was overmarked.”
“Well, for starters, the pairs are usually dancing different dances to each other. It's not REALLY possible to judge a foxtrot versus a salsa (for example), is it? Dances can only truly be assessed as a comparison if you are judging like for like.
It would be a bit like judging the best home-baked cake against the prize marrows at the village fete otherwise.
All I can say is that although Danny and Oti's dance was really very good indeed, I don't think it merited any 10s. It matters not one iota about anyone else's dance when scoring theirs - because nobody else did a Tango this week, so there was really nothing to compare it with. The scoring should have been solely about whether the usual criteria for marking a Tango were met. I don't think it was perfect - or close to it - hence my own opinion that it was overmarked.”
So the entire show and especially the dance off is a completely flawed principle that doesn't work at all.
OH MY GOD - WHAT ARE WE ALL DOING HERE?
Originally Posted by tabithakitten:
“So the entire show and especially the dance off is a completely flawed principle that doesn't work at all.
OH MY GOD - WHAT ARE WE ALL DOING HERE?
”
“So the entire show and especially the dance off is a completely flawed principle that doesn't work at all.
OH MY GOD - WHAT ARE WE ALL DOING HERE?
”
Whistling Down The Wind
(Cue music)
Originally Posted by tabithakitten:
“So the entire show and especially the dance off is a completely flawed principle that doesn't work at all.
OH MY GOD - WHAT ARE WE ALL DOING HERE?
”
“So the entire show and especially the dance off is a completely flawed principle that doesn't work at all.
OH MY GOD - WHAT ARE WE ALL DOING HERE?
”
Pretty much, yes!
That's why I don't vote - or get upset about who wins or who gets booted off. There's no point.
Originally Posted by aggs:
“Basically, we were offered a choice of 3 American Smooths last night.
A foxtrot AS obscured by flowers and giant lollipops.
A QS AS with barndancing and judge table bothering after a lift/heavy assist.
A discotango.
Blame the overbearing themeing.”
“Basically, we were offered a choice of 3 American Smooths last night.
A foxtrot AS obscured by flowers and giant lollipops.
A QS AS with barndancing and judge table bothering after a lift/heavy assist.
A discotango.
Blame the overbearing themeing.”
Absolutely this!
I don't know anymore whether we are judging the dancing or the production. The couples have become bit part actors.
Originally Posted by Phil Ander:
“Every year there is a thread in which somebody complains about the Judges having a favourite who they mark high irrespective of the performance.
This year it's all about either the Cliftons or Danni(take your pick).
This always assumes the four Judges all agree on who they want to win. The one thing about Len and Co. is that they frequently do disagree so either this allegation is a load of old cack or they are very good actors.
Oh and if any of you think BBC conspiracy can you tell us how high this double dealing extends(Tony Hall perhaps).
Two things. Please remember this is all about opinions not facts. For my part I would rather respect the views of four people with over 100 years experience of Dance than those of the latest conspiracy theorists.
Second It's only a light entertainment show.”
“Every year there is a thread in which somebody complains about the Judges having a favourite who they mark high irrespective of the performance.
This year it's all about either the Cliftons or Danni(take your pick).
This always assumes the four Judges all agree on who they want to win. The one thing about Len and Co. is that they frequently do disagree so either this allegation is a load of old cack or they are very good actors.
Oh and if any of you think BBC conspiracy can you tell us how high this double dealing extends(Tony Hall perhaps).
Two things. Please remember this is all about opinions not facts. For my part I would rather respect the views of four people with over 100 years experience of Dance than those of the latest conspiracy theorists.
Second It's only a light entertainment show.”
Good post. Judging often comes down to subjectivity if the technique and performance are in place already. Which is why whilst I listen and read the experts on here I also realise it is a viewpoint often rather than a Hames Jordan #FACT.
Btw, it's Danny not Danni (Isn't that the feminine version?) you are not the only one to get it wrong.
Does anyone else think that Danny came across as cocky and very over-confidence since he got 40 for the samba?
Originally Posted by Julie_Ralling:
“Does anyone else think that Danny came across as cocky and very over-confidence since he got 40 for the samba?”
“Does anyone else think that Danny came across as cocky and very over-confidence since he got 40 for the samba?”
No way.
Did you not see his reaction when he got two 10s for his Tango?
Originally Posted by Monaogg:
“Small critiques help to explain the marks, such as the lack of heel leads as to why Danny & Oti did not get a 10 from Len. Made sense and obvious.
Why, given the lack of criticism did Louise & Kevin not get 10s across the board? No mention of lifts or minimal amount of in hold QS.
This is what I am getting at. People at home can see the obvious errors, but these never get mentioned to L&K by the judges.
It does not need complete evisceration of a routine, but a dash of critique, ameliorated by a dollop of praise to explain the marks.”
“Small critiques help to explain the marks, such as the lack of heel leads as to why Danny & Oti did not get a 10 from Len. Made sense and obvious.
Why, given the lack of criticism did Louise & Kevin not get 10s across the board? No mention of lifts or minimal amount of in hold QS.
This is what I am getting at. People at home can see the obvious errors, but these never get mentioned to L&K by the judges.
It does not need complete evisceration of a routine, but a dash of critique, ameliorated by a dollop of praise to explain the marks.”
I really don't understand why it appears to be so difficult to understand that the judges don't say everything they think about a dance - they have a very short window of time so they just say part of what they think, and if they can make it memorable then all the better. Giving negative feedback all the time gets old, but for pretty much every dance there is something negative that could be said. But they're not obliged to, so if they choose to say something positive that's up to them, doesn't mean they thought it was perfect!
Originally Posted by mimi dlc:
“Last night Len and Craig gave 9 to everyone apart from Robert (who got 8 from Len, 7 from Craig)
So Len and Craig thought that Ore, Louise, Danny and Cloudier all deserved the same mark? Really?”
“Last night Len and Craig gave 9 to everyone apart from Robert (who got 8 from Len, 7 from Craig)
So Len and Craig thought that Ore, Louise, Danny and Cloudier all deserved the same mark? Really?”
1. Please learn how to spell Claudia, it's not difficult.
2. Yes, they could very well have thought they all deserved the same mark, it's a little thing called opinion - frankly there wasn't much to choose between them as far as I was concerned either, they all made mistakes or had other issues.
Originally Posted by Julie_Ralling:
“Does anyone else think that Danny came across as cocky and very over-confidence since he got 40 for the samba?”
“Does anyone else think that Danny came across as cocky and very over-confidence since he got 40 for the samba?”
No, and clearly you don't watch either the backstage VTs, It Takes Two or the VT before his dance this week, because in all of those the complete opposite was clear. Never mind when he finished his dance this week and showed he was well aware he didn't deserve a 10 for it.
Originally Posted by Mystical123:
“2. Yes, they could very well have thought they all deserved the same mark, it's a little thing called opinion - frankly there wasn't much to choose between them as far as I was concerned either, they all made mistakes or had other issues.”
“2. Yes, they could very well have thought they all deserved the same mark, it's a little thing called opinion - frankly there wasn't much to choose between them as far as I was concerned either, they all made mistakes or had other issues.”
Doesn't augur very well for a dance off though does it? Yes, the performances could be different there but what if they weren't? How do they split them? If they can't split them in the main show, how can we be confident they're splitting them fairly in a dance off? And if they can split them fairly in a dance off, then why can't they in the main show? Didn't matter this week but what about next week when those very same performers go straight up against each other and two of them do indeed end up facing each other in the dance off?
Boot next week's dance off is basically what I'm saying
. If the judges can't split the celebs on the main scoreboard then their opinion is worthless come the dance off - they can put through who the hell they like for whatever reason they like. Hardly transparency is it?
Originally Posted by tabithakitten:
“Doesn't augur very well for a dance off though does it? Yes, the performances could be different there but what if they weren't? How do they split them? If they can't split them in the main show, how can we be confident they're splitting them fairly in a dance off? And if they can split them fairly in a dance off, then why can't they in the main show? Didn't matter this week but what about next week when those very same performers go straight up against each other and two of them do indeed end up facing each other in the dance off?”
“Doesn't augur very well for a dance off though does it? Yes, the performances could be different there but what if they weren't? How do they split them? If they can't split them in the main show, how can we be confident they're splitting them fairly in a dance off? And if they can split them fairly in a dance off, then why can't they in the main show? Didn't matter this week but what about next week when those very same performers go straight up against each other and two of them do indeed end up facing each other in the dance off?”
Well for one it's not as if they have to score them in the dance-off, so one might have been a high 9 but not quite a 10, and one might have been only slightly better than an 9. I have to admit I'm struggling to understand why it's such a problem that two dances get the same score from the same judge - there's no rule that says they have to give each dance a different number, and it;s a sliding scale, there just isn't a .5 score to hand out on Strictly because that's not the system they use.
And fairness doesn't come into it - there's nothing "fair" about opinion, it's inherently subjective and the judges decide based on whatever criteria they wish, same as any member of the public does. Whether you agree with the judges or not is an entirely different question, nothing to do with fairness.
Originally Posted by Julie_Ralling:
“Does anyone else think that Danny came across as cocky and very over-confidence since he got 40 for the samba?”
“Does anyone else think that Danny came across as cocky and very over-confidence since he got 40 for the samba?”
No. But a lot of people cannot bear to see someone shine and be happy about being very good at something.
It's all about pretending to be shocked and humble and ever so lucky .... blah, blah, blah.
Not good at celebrating talent, this country. Prefer losers. Ridiculous.
Originally Posted by sofakat:
“No. But a lot of people cannot bear to see someone shine and be happy about being very good at something.
It's all about pretending to be shocked and humble and ever so lucky .... blah, blah, blah.
Not good at celebrating talent, this country. Prefer losers. Ridiculous.”
“No. But a lot of people cannot bear to see someone shine and be happy about being very good at something.
It's all about pretending to be shocked and humble and ever so lucky .... blah, blah, blah.
Not good at celebrating talent, this country. Prefer losers. Ridiculous.”
Agreed.
Originally Posted by Julie_Ralling:
“Does anyone else think that Danny came across as cocky and very over-confidence since he got 40 for the samba?”
“Does anyone else think that Danny came across as cocky and very over-confidence since he got 40 for the samba?”
No , not at all . He seemed really pleased to get the 10's . He was over to Rinder straight away when he knew Rinder was in the dance off . I get a lovely vibe from Danny , a nice genuine guy
Originally Posted by Julie_Ralling:
“Does anyone else think that Danny came across as cocky and very over-confidence since he got 40 for the samba?”
“Does anyone else think that Danny came across as cocky and very over-confidence since he got 40 for the samba?”
Definitely not, and he always praises Oti's brilliant choreography for any success that he has had.
Originally Posted by tabithakitten:
“Doesn't augur very well for a dance off though does it? Yes, the performances could be different there but what if they weren't? How do they split them? If they can't split them in the main show, how can we be confident they're splitting them fairly in a dance off? And if they can split them fairly in a dance off, then why can't they in the main show? Didn't matter this week but what about next week when those very same performers go straight up against each other and two of them do indeed end up facing each other in the dance off?
Boot next week's dance off is basically what I'm saying. If the judges can't split the celebs on the main scoreboard then their opinion is worthless come the dance off - they can put through who the hell they like for whatever reason they like. Hardly transparency is it?”
“Doesn't augur very well for a dance off though does it? Yes, the performances could be different there but what if they weren't? How do they split them? If they can't split them in the main show, how can we be confident they're splitting them fairly in a dance off? And if they can split them fairly in a dance off, then why can't they in the main show? Didn't matter this week but what about next week when those very same performers go straight up against each other and two of them do indeed end up facing each other in the dance off?
Boot next week's dance off is basically what I'm saying
. If the judges can't split the celebs on the main scoreboard then their opinion is worthless come the dance off - they can put through who the hell they like for whatever reason they like. Hardly transparency is it?”
The DO is a separate dance that is how not rocket science, they then subjectively split who has done the best dance , in Lens case against the known standard maybe
7 of 9
